Civil War era steam locomotive questions

[Tracklayer]

How far could a typical Civil War era 4-4-0 locomotive travel with a full tender of wood and water ?.
Also, how much rolling stock could one pull by itself ?.

Thanks

Tracklayer

[vsmith]

Hard to say, water was the weak link, if an engine was pulling a large load and carrying a heavy head of steam it would go thru its water supply fairly fast. Water tanks were located between every 10 to 25 miles or so depending on the terrain, wood stacks would also be stocked at watering stops. These were not very efficient engines and were often consumers of copius amount of wood and water.

As for the pulling capacity, on flat level grade not going fast, one engine could pull quite a bit, 20-30 cars, but the moment they hit a grade the engines would be in trouble same engine on a 4% grade maybe 10 cars, maybe less.

[cacole]

Photographs of civil war trains I have seen tend to indicate that no more than 10 cars max were ever being pulled by a single locomotive.

There is, by the way, a large collection of civil war photographs on the Libary of Congress web site at http://www.loc.gov

[tatans]

Were'nt steam locos using far more water than wood (fuel)?? I think the proportion was enormous. I (wrongly) assumed fuel far exceeded water, but not so, Does anyone have the stats on fuel/water consumption of a steam loco???

[Jetrock]

Indeed, water is the limiting factor--you could easily load enough wood to keep the firebox going all day, but have to stop every 10-20 miles for water.

One thing to keep in mind is that often the limitation on the length of trains was not a locomotive's pulling power, but the ability of a crew of brakemen to manually stop the train. Longer trains mean either more brakemen (harder to coordinate, adding risk) or a longer time needed to brake due to more cars per brakeman (also adding risk) and more brakemen means more crew costs for the railroad. The brakemen had a fairly exciting job, racing across the top of a speeding train yanking on brakewheels in any sort of weather...

Also, coal-burning locomotives have been around as long as wood-burning ones--wood was more common on the west coast only because there isn't that much coal there, but lots of wood (and later lots of oil, which is why lines like SP powered their 20th century steam with bunker oil.)

[dehusman]

I think you are under estimating the range of the locomotives. Sidings were oftem spaced more than 10 miles apart and not every siding or station had a water tower. I would think the range was closer to 30-50 miles, although they probably filled up sooner than that.

Dave H.

[cspmo]

Here's interesting link.
http://www.mtsu.edu/~cwtech/railroad/locos.html

[pedromorgan]

talking of the 4-4-0 wood burners. i have a pair of rivarisso models that must be about 20 years old. they run great and i would like some more but all the ones i have seen since seem to have a tender that seems too short and out of proportion. also i dont like the bright colours that some are painted in. does anyone know of a good model. it dosent have to be perfect just look really pretty!?

Peter

[Jetrock]

Bright colors were very common for locomotives up through the 1870s--locomotives of that era were often gaudy and bright, complete with lots of brass, detail trim, and other things to make them colorful. Typically in those days there was one engineer to a locomotive, and that locomotive was "his" loco, and the gaudier it was, the better! Engineers prided themselves on locomotives adorned with flags, deer antlers, bunting, even garlands of flowers, polished brass, and bright paint. While the cheap plastic of some Rivarossi models doesn't quite do justice to the Victorian-era paint jobs of these engines, they are more correct than a flat black engine would be.

It was not until the 1880s when the Vanderbilt-inspired drive to make American locomotives spartan, industrious, undecorated and black took over. That was also the era when engines were no longer assigned to a particular engineer, and the incentive to pay special attention to "his" locomotive was decreased.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

Indeed, water is the limiting factor--you could easily load enough wood to keep the firebox going all day, but have to stop every 10-20 miles for water.

One thing to keep in mind is that often the limitation on the length of trains was not a locomotive's pulling power, but the ability of a crew of brakemen to manually stop the train. Longer trains mean either more brakemen (harder to coordinate, adding risk) or a longer time needed to brake due to more cars per brakeman (also adding risk) and more brakemen means more crew costs for the railroad. The brakemen had a fairly exciting job, racing across the top of a speeding train yanking on brakewheels in any sort of weather...

Also, coal-burning locomotives have been around as long as wood-burning ones--wood was more common on the west coast only because there isn't that much coal there, but lots of wood (and later lots of oil, which is why lines like SP powered their 20th century steam with bunker oil.)

Your point about the braking power is interesting. As I understand it, locos of this era did not have brakes, but instead relied on brakes on the tender and/or rolling stock to bring them to a halt. This required the brakeman to get out and go apply the brakes on each car as the train was moving...!

Andrew

[vsmith]

The engineer could use the compressive power of the cylinders to brake the engine, this compressive braking is the same as when your driving a manual transmission car ging down a hill, putting it into a lower gear and taking your foot off the gas, even with the little gas from the idle setting the engines cylinders will hold the vehicle to only a certain speed, the car will continue down the will and will not accelerate unless gas is applied. Same priciple was true for steam cylinders, a good engineer would use the compressive power of his pistons to keep the engines speed under control on down grades and for braking to a stop. Small short trains allowed this to be the standard operational proceedure for the earliest years of all railroads, then when hand brakes were added the combination was applicable for almost 40 years (1850-1870). As trains got larger and faster, the limits of this system became rapidly apparent, Westinghouses air brake system allowed entire trains to be controlled from the locomotives cab, virtually eliminating most of the more hazardous aspect of the brakemans job overnight, the position remained, but the job was very different after the addition of airbrakes.

[hminky]

A good treatise of Civil War locomotives in action is Disney's Great Locomotive Chase

Just a thought

[dinwitty]

why modern steamers like the N&W had auxilliary tenders for longer distance capacity.

[Jetrock]

Not "brakeman," typically, except on fairly short trains, but "brakemen," a team of guys running along the top of the trains! Besides, if there is only one, if the brakeman falls off the top of the train there is nobody left to turn on the brakes!

[pedromorgan]

buster keatons film "general" is also a good source of pictures!

Peter

[Anonymous]

The original "General" is on display at a museum in Kennesaw, Georgia, north of Atlanta. (The museum is right next to the CSX Atlanta- Chattanooga main line... and near "Big Shanty", which no longer exists.)

This museum is the custodian of Southern RR documents as well as a huge exhibit on the Vulcan locomotive works. Here's a link... the curators are always happy to answer questions.

www.srha.net

Good luck!
Erik

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by hminky

A good treatise of Civil War locomotives in action is Disney's Great Locomotive Chase

Just a thought

and

QUOTE:
Posted: Today, 02:55:52
buster keatons film "general" is also a good source of pictures!
Peter

Please, please, PLEASE people! NEVERnevernever get your history lessons from Hollywood! Disney hasn't found a historical period yet that they couldn't figure out how to screw up, and I've yet to see ANY Hollywood production that was anywhere near 100% accurate (Saving Private Ryan is about as close as it gets, at around 80%). Hollywood is for entertainment, original source material (photos) are for research...

[hminky]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by hminky

A good treatise of Civil War locomotives in action is Disney's Great Locomotive Chase

Just a thought

and

QUOTE:
Posted: Today, 02:55:52
buster keatons film "general" is also a good source of pictures!
Peter

Please, please, PLEASE people! NEVERnevernever get your history lessons from Hollywood! Disney hasn't found a historical period yet that they couldn't figure out how to screw up, and I've yet to see ANY Hollywood production that was anywhere near 100% accurate (Saving Private Ryan is about as close as it gets, at around 80%). Hollywood is for entertainment, original source material (photos) are for research...

I never said the Great Locomotive Chase was a history lesson. It shows Civil War era and 1870's locomotives in action and in COLOR.
It shows locomotives braking without air brakes and locomotives at speed. I never watch any of the crap, just the locomotives in action.

Just a thought
Harold

[palallin]

The General that is on display today does NOT look like she did during the war. The changes are dramatic and far-reaching. Check out this thread:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=21954

The discussion will lead you to this site:

smrtrains.com

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone.... Ive been getting information on the war between the states (american civil war)... I plan on building a HO scale version with a battle and so forth on it... Would anyone know of anymore sites to gather info, so i can make it as realistic as i can? I would really appreciate it... I can use any advice from the experts out there!!!!! I have been planning this for many years and finally have the space.... Thank you, any help grately appreciated.... I live in NW Louisiana and have of yet to find a club around me to look for help here....
Tim strozier

[jrbarney]

Tims922,
Welcome to the forums !
You might be interested in the Civil War group on Yahoo :
http://www.yahoogroups.com
then enter:
Civil_War_RRs

Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[MidlandPacific]

John White's book on steam locomotives from 1830-1880 has lots of excellent info. I'd check it out.

[Anonymous]

Thank you JRBarmey for the yahoo groups.... its greatly appreciated....theyll come in handy.... Thanks again for your time...
Tim strozier

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone for there help.... its great appreciated
Tim Strozier