I still feel lost in space

[electrolove]

I'm not really sure what the best things is. I'm really lost in space right now. [xx(]

I need advice on 2 things.

1 - Where in the picture should I solder track feeders?

2 - Which rail joiners should I solder, and which rail joiners should I just leave unsoldered?

These are Walthers/Shinohara code 83 DCC ready turnouts.

Please download the picture and illustrate directly on the picture how you would do it. Then upload the picture for everyone to see. Or email it to [e-mail]

Thanks in advice.

[Anonymous]

One thing's for sure. If you feed every turnout, it'll be done and over with. You won't have to worry about voltage drops or power loss. It would give you more practice on soldering. Not that I think you need it.

[MisterBeasley]

What manufacturer(s) made the turnouts? I'm no expert on these myself, but some turnouts might need special consideration in feeding the frog ends.

You might want to consider "shut-off" switches for some of your sidings. This would allow you to park lighted passenger cars or cabeese on them, and turn the track power off to save the bulbs and reduce power consumption when not in use. This is also useful for locomotive storage, though less important with DCC. It's a very good thing to have if you're running a DC engine as Engine Zero on DCC and you want to have it on the layout when you're not running it.

[electrolove]

This is all Walthers/Shinohara code 83 DCC ready turnouts.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MisterBeasley

What manufacturer(s) made the turnouts? I'm no expert on these myself, but some turnouts might need special consideration in feeding the frog ends.

You might want to consider "shut-off" switches for some of your sidings. This would allow you to park lighted passenger cars or cabeese on them, and turn the track power off to save the bulbs and reduce power consumption when not in use. This is also useful for locomotive storage, though less important with DCC. It's a very good thing to have if you're running a DC engine as Engine Zero on DCC and you want to have it on the layout when you're not running it.

[loathar]

Theres a guy has a page called (?) Wiring for DCC.I don't know the link. (Anyone??)He has diagrams on what wireing mods to do to what brand switches.(very good page)
I'm with geardriven-Can't go wrong feeding every thing.

[ndbprr]

Not having DCC my suggestion may be outdated but here is how I would do it for DC. The feeds have to be at the far left end or the last turnout. Add about 6" of track before you put in insulated rail joiners on each track. That allows you to shut power off to them and store trains or engines on the track. A second set of feeders needs to go between the turnout faced in the oppossite direction and the one to its right with insulated rail joiners at the left ends of that turnout. Otherwise that one could be thrown for diverging as well as the one to its left causing a short cirucuit. Same thing with the one at the bottom of the picture. Not part of your question but I would move the turnout shown on the left leg of the the three way turnout a little to the right and turn it a little bit. A short length of track in there that is curved will bring that back into allignment for your plan likw the one abvove it.

[ereimer]

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/index.htm

is the website mentioned above

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_walthers.htm
this is the page for walthers turnouts

[rrinker]

If they are the new DCC friendly type, those are not power-routing turnouts and so no insulated joiners are required other than if you want to isolate a siding. I do not solder the rail joiners of any of my turnouts - I want to be able to lift one out if it needs to be repaired for any reason. I would probably have a sea of feeders in there since I put a power connection to every solid rail joiner - definitely all three legs of a turnout. That plus the internal jumpers pretty much guarantees contact everythwere but the insulated frog itself, which can be powered with contacts off the switch machine if needed, but I haven't had any problems so far even with the smallest switchers, whic still have 8 wheels, and 8 wheel pickup.

--Randy

[electrolove]

Yes they are DCC ready. So if I do it your way, I will not solder any rail joiners at all and the feeders will be placed like this?

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

If they are the new DCC friendly type, those are not power-routing turnouts and so no insulated joiners are required other than if you want to isolate a siding. I do not solder the rail joiners of any of my turnouts - I want to be able to lift one out if it needs to be repaired for any reason. I would probably have a sea of feeders in there since I put a power connection to every solid rail joiner - definitely all three legs of a turnout. That plus the internal jumpers pretty much guarantees contact everythwere but the insulated frog itself, which can be powered with contacts off the switch machine if needed, but I haven't had any problems so far even with the smallest switchers, whic still have 8 wheels, and 8 wheel pickup.

--Randy

[dehusman]

Any time two frogs face each other, you probably need insulating gaps.

You don't need all those feeders.

The real question I have is how the the switches you have chosen work regarding powering the frogs and closure rails. I have never used those particular switches so I am not familiar with how they are wired.

If you apply power to the outside rails of the switch (the stock rails) are both the inside rails (closure rails) the same polarity (connected to each other) or is the left stock rail connected to the left closure rail and the right closure rail connected to righ stock rail?
Next, is the frog powered? If it is how does it get powered, from the closure rails and points?
Last, are the rails beyond the frog separate from the frog or they electrically connected to the frog?

If the switches you are using are similar to the older Walthers switches, you probably want to just power the stock rails on the first (left) switch in the ladder, the stock rails on the switch along the front track and the stock rails on the switch that is the other half of the crossover in the front.

The only way you can put in feeders to the other interior tracks is probably if you drive them off electrial contacts on whatever switch mechanism you use. If you use straight power drops you will probably get shorts.

Dave H.

[electrolove]

Thanks for your answer. I think it's important to know that with DCC ready turnouts, there is not that much problems. The plan is in fact to lay them down and run. As soon I know if I need to solder rail joiners or not. And how many feeders I need and where. Maybe I don't even have to add feeders at all to the turnouts. Maybe they can be added to the nearest flextrack, and then I solder the rail joiners between the turnout and the flextrack. I don't know what the best thing is at this moment.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

Any time two frogs face each other, you probably need insulating gaps.

You don't need all those feeders.

The real question I have is how the the switches you have chosen work regarding powering the frogs and closure rails. I have never used those particular switches so I am not familiar with how they are wired.

If you apply power to the outside rails of the switch (the stock rails) are both the inside rails (closure rails) the same polarity (connected to each other) or is the left stock rail connected to the left closure rail and the right closure rail connected to righ stock rail?
Next, is the frog powered? If it is how does it get powered, from the closure rails and points?
Last, are the rails beyond the frog separate from the frog or they electrically connected to the frog?

If the switches you are using are similar to the older Walthers switches, you probably want to just power the stock rails on the first (left) switch in the ladder, the stock rails on the switch along the front track and the stock rails on the switch that is the other half of the crossover in the front.

The only way you can put in feeders to the other interior tracks is probably if you drive them off electrial contacts on whatever switch mechanism you use. If you use straight power drops you will probably get shorts.

Dave H.

[electrolove]

I found something on the net (http://jfescott.home.comcast.net/tnsf_trackwork.html) that I think is interresting. What do you guys think?

Concerning trackwork, the gaps cut, or joints left unsoldered, worked well through the cold months and through a couple warm spells. We've had no more trouble with expansion and contraction of the rails. What I'm finding works well is to leave unsoldered joints between 3' sections of flex track and at one end of a single or group of turnouts. I still like to solder groups of turnouts just to keep things lined up and maintain good conductivity but I will leave a gap between every third or forth turnout in yards, etc. It might be overkill but I solder feeder wires to each piece of track isolated by unsoldered joints and generally space feeders at about 24" to 36" apart. In most cases each 3' piece of flex track gets two feeders, each about 4" in from the end.

I think the last line about adding 2 feeders to every flex track is overkill, but the rest is interesting.

[Anonymous]

I've placed my feeders about 4 - 6' apart, and not had any problems (I run DCC). The only time they're closer is for the few power-routing switches I have, where I'll have a feeder at the point end of the switch, and then feeders about a 1' or so down the tracks on the frog end (after the gaps, of course).

I agree with soldering crossover switches together, but I suggest not soldering the tracks to the switches themselves -- that way it'll be easy to replace a switch if it fails without having to tear up the track around it.

As for the track itself, I usually solder every other connection on flex track (except for long curves, of course), which leaves a 'floating' connection for the track to expand/contract as it likes. With the power feeds 4-6' apart, there's almost never a point where the joiners alone are carrying the power, other than at the switches.

[electrolove]

Thanks for your answer, appreciated.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jsalemi

I've placed my feeders about 4 - 6' apart, and not had any problems (I run DCC). The only time they're closer is for the few power-routing switches I have, where I'll have a feeder at the point end of the switch, and then feeders about a 1' or so down the tracks on the frog end (after the gaps, of course).

I agree with soldering crossover switches together, but I suggest not soldering the tracks to the switches themselves -- that way it'll be easy to replace a switch if it fails without having to tear up the track around it.

As for the track itself, I usually solder every other connection on flex track (except for long curves, of course), which leaves a 'floating' connection for the track to expand/contract as it likes. With the power feeds 4-6' apart, there's almost never a point where the joiners alone are carrying the power, other than at the switches.

[electrolove]

Can this be a good idea? No soldered rail joiners at all and the feeders as in the picture.

[selector]

Electro, I think that last section you quoted from the web has it right. Use joiners in the switches and yards, and solder feeders to the next set of NON-switch rails after every three or four switches. That way, whole sections of switches can be lifted out after pushing the joiners back out of the way, and you won't have a nest of wires pulled up at the same time. Three or four switches placed next to each other, as in a yard, should get lots of power from nearby feeders on the straight pieces. If we were talking 10 switches, then maybe a central set of feeders would be wise, but not for the three feet that four switches will take. The only problem that randy and joe and others ensure they don't face is that a joiner isn't making proper contact and thus leaving one of the swtiches weak and intermittent. It is a lot of work, but they know that everything is placed solidly.

[dehusman]

If you feed from the frog end as he has shown and the switches have the rails beyond the frog electrically connected to the frog he will have dead shorts.

That's why I am asking whether the frog is electrically isolated from the rest of the switch and if the polarity of the rails beyond the frog are a constant polarity or vary the way the switch is thrown.

Dave H.

[electrolove]

dehusman:

This is how the Walthers/Shinohara code 83 DCC friendly turnouts looks like.

[rrinker]

The frog is isolated on these new DCC friendly versions. Electrically it works just like an Atlas, you can connect them frog to frog with no problem, you can apply power from the frog end with no problem.
The OLDER ones that were NOT DCC friendly are power routing and require gaps at the frog end.
If I can aquire a good supply at a decent price, I think I'm switching. It's nearly impossible to power the frog on the Atlas, the metal used does not take solder and the existing hole is too big for a 00-90 screw, and if you tap it out for a 2-56 it ends up splitting. Plus the Atlas #4 in code 83 anyway have wierd kinks in them. The #6's are fine.

--Randy

[dehusman]

In that case there would be no electrical problems with any of those feeders assuming you aren't providing for electrically isolating any of those tracks.

Use a 1-72 screw in the Atlas frog tab and you won't have any problems.

Dave H.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by electrolove
Can this be a good idea? No soldered rail joiners at all and the feeders as in the picture.

That is exactly what I was thinking and what I would do.

[selector]

Yup. If you connect the rails to all switches correctly, you should have lots of power to operate from the nearby feeders as you have diagrammed. Happily, you will be an expert in soldering and wiring when you are done...in September.

[electrolove]

September, next year? [:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

Yup. If you connect the rails to all switches correctly, you should have lots of power to operate from the nearby feeders as you have diagrammed. Happily, you will be an expert in soldering and wiring when you are done...in September.

[electrolove]

Texas Zepher:

Nice to see that I'm not alone with my idea, thanks. Appreciated.

[chateauricher]

If you're worried about power loss to the turnouts that are sandwiched between other turnouts (such as your 3-way turnout), you could solder the power feeders directly to the rail joiners. Should you ever need to remove the turnout, just slide the rail joiners off. Just be sure not to solder anything to the turnouts themselves.

[electrolove]

Sounds like a very good idea. Because I can then solder the feeder to the rail joiner without melting any ties, and when it's soldered just take it to my layout and slide it on. Thanks for the great idea.

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

If you're worried about power loss to the turnouts that are sandwiched between other turnouts (such as your 3-way turnout), you could solder the power feeders directly to the rail joiners. Should you ever need to remove the turnout, just slide the rail joiners off. Just be sure not to solder anything to the turnouts themselves.

[Anonymous]

That's how my layouts wired (in theory only-its N gauge). There are many people who "know" how to wire for DCC. As a note my turouts are power routing and do not cause problems wired like this.