Which DCC System should I buy, GIVEN....

[joeh19012]

Some advice, please. Feel free to expound, stand on a soap box, orate....

I have been researching DCC systems, even though my layout is only planned, and I have just started on the benchwork. I want to try to make a decision, or at least limit a decision, in order to plan for the various types of wiring I may need.

I appreciate the advice that there is no "best" system--only one that is "best" for me. With that in mind, I would like to solicit opinions based on MY preferences.

[?] I anticipate running about 4-8 trains/locomotives at once.
[?] I will need to be able to access CV's on the fly (ops mode reads) and will want to program decoders with a computer program (e.g. Decoder Pro).
[?] I would ultimately like to simply "drive" a through train, with a computer controlling the turnouts and some indication on the throttle telling me to slow down, and the computer stopping the train before it runs the wrong way through a switch. (Computer routing via software.) I would control turnouts in a yard where switching would be required.
[?] I might add signalling.
[?] I might want to control other devices by the computer: timing traffic and street lights, building lights, etc.
[?] I want the wiring to be as simple as possible (not that I'm an electrophobe). This would mean multiple wiring buses (power, throttle, etc.) with limited point to point wiring (e.g. individual wiring for a building light from power source to control panel switch to lamp).


Okay, all you experienced experts out there: Which DCC system is "right" for me?

P.S. I am a computer professional, and I understand electrical circuits, so software and hardware is not an issue.
(I may post this on another thread as well).

[Anonymous]

Joe,

Based on you wish list I Would tell you that the best way fro you is to look at all the differnt systems on the market and compare there features tho what you are looking for.

Digitrax, lentz and others are availibe and each with it own abilities and hadicaps, Since your a Computer pro the signaling will probly be easy for you. There was a very good series of articles in Modelrailroader in 2003 and 2004 that was titled Signaling made easy that might interest you it was showing how to use a home computer to run the signals. I have a hard enough time just formatting my hard drive I dont think I will touch that stuff for a while. I know you wanted Expert help but I thought I could at least get the ball rolling for you.

Best of luck and keep us informed on the progress I am really interested in your ideas.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joeh19012

Some advice, please. Feel free to expound, stand on a soap box, orate....

I have been researching DCC systems, even though my layout is only planned, and I have just started on the benchwork. I want to try to make a decision, or at least limit a decision, in order to plan for the various types of wiring I may need.

I appreciate the advice that there is no "best" system--only one that is "best" for me. With that in mind, I would like to solicit opinions based on MY preferences.

[?] I anticipate running about 4-8 trains/locomotives at once.

Virtually any system will do this unless you are talking about separate cabs for each locomotive.

QUOTE:
[?] I will need to be able to access CV's on the fly (ops mode reads) and will want to program decoders with a computer program (e.g. Decoder Pro).

I could be wrong here and someone will probably know more, but to my knowledge Digitrax is the only product that supports reading CV values on the main, and even then you must have incorporated transponding to take advantage of this feature. As far as programming with a computer goes, most of the middle to high end systems allow for this in one way or another.

QUOTE:
[?] I would ultimately like to simply "drive" a through train, with a computer controlling the turnouts and some indication on the throttle telling me to slow down, and the computer stopping the train before it runs the wrong way through a switch. (Computer routing via software.) I would control turnouts in a yard where switching would be required.

Again this feature has more to do with the software you purchase as most of the mainstream products support computer control in one form or another.

QUOTE:
[?] I might add signalling.

Signalling can be dealt with in many ways, most of which have nothing to do with the DCC system being used. I personally use Digitrax components for block detection on my N scale layout, but I use a PLC with custom software to drive the actual signal heads. Someone else may have more information about this.

QUOTE:
[?] I might want to control other devices by the computer: timing traffic and street lights, building lights, etc.

This is probably handled outside of the DCC system architecture as there are hundreds of inexpensive products that do these sorts of things that are inexpensive. You could use stationary decoders to handle this type of stuff, but it would get expensive fast depending upon how many things you were trying to control.

QUOTE:
[?] I want the wiring to be as simple as possible (not that I'm an electrophobe). This would mean multiple wiring buses (power, throttle, etc.) with limited point to point wiring (e.g. individual wiring for a building light from power source to control panel switch to lamp).

Regardless of what you've heard, wiring a DCC layout, even a very large one is quite simple when compared to traditional DC block control. Basic electrical skills should get you through all but the toughest DCC installations regardless of manufacturers.

QUOTE:
Okay, all you experienced experts out there: Which DCC system is "right" for me?

I'm not sure you have asked the right questions to narrow this down much. Besides reading CV's on the main, I think any of the mainstream DCC products would work for you. I think you need to ask yourself some other questions before shopping, like...

First and foremost what is my budget for the system?
How do I like the feel and look of the hand held?
Is zero stretching (running analog locomotives) important to me?
Do I prefer universal or advanced consisting, or do want to use both?
Do I want an open ended system with unlimited expansion capabilities?
Is programming any type of decoder with no fuss important to me?
Am I looking for feedback from the rolling stock beyond simple block status?
Is it important to have a lot of friends using the same system for assistance purposes?

These are the types of questions I think would narrow your pick down a bit. Remember that all of the big players have good systems, and for the most part it comes down to what you prefer, not what is better or worse. There are systems that will do more than others, but there is a price for this and many people aren't willing to pay for it. For instance I have heard that Zimo makes an amazing DCC system, but I doubt I will ever pony up to find out for myself... [;)]

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Why don't you find someone who has the Digitrax Zephyr system in operation, and look at that. Everyone correct me at once here, but I think the Zephyr will do everything you have described. It will run ten locos at the same time. If it will do everything else you want to do, why spend any more than that?

QUOTE: Originally posted by joeh19012

Some advice, please. Feel free to expound, stand on a soap box, orate....

I have been researching DCC systems, even though my layout is only planned, and I have just started on the benchwork. I want to try to make a decision, or at least limit a decision, in order to plan for the various types of wiring I may need.

I appreciate the advice that there is no "best" system--only one that is "best" for me. With that in mind, I would like to solicit opinions based on MY preferences.

[?] I anticipate running about 4-8 trains/locomotives at once.
[?] I will need to be able to access CV's on the fly (ops mode reads) and will want to program decoders with a computer program (e.g. Decoder Pro).
[?] I would ultimately like to simply "drive" a through train, with a computer controlling the turnouts and some indication on the throttle telling me to slow down, and the computer stopping the train before it runs the wrong way through a switch. (Computer routing via software.) I would control turnouts in a yard where switching would be required.
[?] I might add signalling.
[?] I might want to control other devices by the computer: timing traffic and street lights, building lights, etc.
[?] I want the wiring to be as simple as possible (not that I'm an electrophobe). This would mean multiple wiring buses (power, throttle, etc.) with limited point to point wiring (e.g. individual wiring for a building light from power source to control panel switch to lamp).


Okay, all you experienced experts out there: Which DCC system is "right" for me?

P.S. I am a computer professional, and I understand electrical circuits, so software and hardware is not an issue.
(I may post this on another thread as well).

[AntonioFP45]

Joeh,

I'm a dcc newbie still doing research. Add to that "I'm an electronics klutz!"

So far, I'm still sticking with my decision in going with a Digitrax Zephyr. I've seen two in operation, looked through the manuals, got to operate one.

There is learning required, as with all DCC systems, but I've found the Zephyr easy to understand once it's hooked up and you get used to operating it.

But remember, this is like purchasing a new car. Each manufacturer has its pros and cons. Basically, comparing Digitrax, Lenz, and NCE is sort of like comparing Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Do your homework, and talk to customers that own the products.

Just my 2 cents.

[ClinchValleySD40]

NCE can do all of the things you have on your list.

Go to some layouts and try all the different brands.

[ereimer]

well you certainly have a lot of research ahead of you [:)]

let's start off with what you shouldn't buy . atlas , bachmann , mrc . (atlas and bachmann apparently use lenz components and can be expanded using more lenz parts , but why start off low end on what is going to be a huge project?)

any of the other systems will do what you want with the appropriate add-ons . digitrax will probably be the easiest as they make signalling devices , block occupancy detectors etc. that all work with their Loconet network . however , many of the Loconet devices work independently from the throttle/rail busses so you don't need to use their command station , throttles etc.

there are also computer control systems you can look at
i like http://www.cti-electronics.com/index.htm because it includes hardware and software

you also should look at
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/
http://www.freiwald.com/
http://www.digitoys-systems.com/WinLok_21_e.htm
and many more

QUOTE: and some indication on the throttle telling me to slow down

i don't know of any system that does this

[rrinker]

I'm still trying to figure out why anyone needs to read CV's on the main track. It's not life and death here, it's not as if we need absolutely fail-safe operation of our trains. Easier to just set the CV to what you want and assume it's changed - considering I've NEVER yet sent an Ops Mode CV change to a loco that didn't take it...

At any rate, only 2 systems can do that TODAY, Digitrax and Lenz. Either way, TODAY you are lcked into using their respective decoders, as well. That's something I'm not willing to accept.

All your other requirements point strongly at Digitrax. It's the ONLY one with a system bus capable of all the extra traffic of signalling as well as controlling the DCC system. 4-8 locos, that syas Zephyr, 4-8 locos are well within the capability of the Zephyr with no extra components. For computer interface, Locobuffer - if you are comfortable with electronics then order the PC board from Hans Deloof and the parts from Mouser and build your own like I did. If not, the preassembled commercial version is available from RR-CirKits. For signals - its hard to beat the Digitrax SE8C in terms of signals per dollar, and since you are plannign to use computer control anyway, complex signalling is relatively easy. To control your other non-railroad things, you can stick with the Loconet bus and use the LocoIO boards - also available from Hans Deloof. That's a DIY 16 line I/O card that interfaces to Loconet and uses simple switch commands to control the outputs. RR-CirKits has a 64-line device coming soon that works in the same way. CML also has a line of I/O boards that interface to Loconet.

--Randy

[steffd]

The question is as simple as it is complex. I have been reading many postings regarding DCC system pro’s and con’s in addition to the various recommendations that are being made based on personal preferences and thought I’d place my two cents worth. I have personally been using “Digitrax” and various compatible DCC products since 1996 “BIG BOY System” which I am still using to this day with the addition of some new throttles and accessories. However, with this said, at the time of purchase there was not much choice available in terms of DCC system selection. Today we have so many manufacturers to chose from providing an endless array of features and benefits and price ranges to suite all interests and budgets.

These days however, I tend to find my “Digitrax” system somewhat cheap and flimsy compared to some of the other more advanced higher end systems and accessories currently on the market such as “Zimo”, “Lenz” and “Uhlenbrock’s Intellibox” but then again the price is not the same either. This is not to discredit “Digitrax” by any means or to say that the system has not performed well for me considering that it is early generation. In fact, it has and continues to provide me with good operation despite a few drawbacks but I now find myself in the midst of considering the transition to a newer more advanced “Zimo” system. Regardless of the fact that “Zimo” is ranked the world’s most advanced DCC system and probably also the most expensive, my selection is based on the advanced features, various protocols, design, architecture and overall superior quality of the system and it’s components.

In my opinion a DCC system is a long-term investment and one should consider the future before committing to such a system and the inherent costs involved. With the constant advancements in computer control and layout automation in addition to increased third party DCC accessory manufacturers and software developers, it is best to have a system that will enable you to take fully advantage of those features whether it is now or in the future. On the other hand, if you are new to DCC and are not sure about the functions and capabilities or are on a budget, I would suggest a BASIC lower cost system. I would suggest the “Atlas DCC Master” (made by “Lenz”) or the “Digitrax Zephyr” which I find to be wonderful products for the beginner or budget conscious. Roco also has a Digital starter train sets with their LOKMAUS (Locomouse) System. Starting with a basic set-up will significantly help ease with the transition from standard DC to DCC operation for the beginner and will allow you to learn and familiarize yourself without overwhelming or overly investing. Once you master the various functions you should then be in a better position to determine what features you want and that are best for you then perhaps decide whether or not you want or need to evolve to a more sophisticated system, which in return can end up saving you time money and headaches. [banghead]

Steff

[loathar]

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36389
Go read this thread. It will probably answere your questions.I beleive Digitrax(and maybe Lenz) are the only ones with computer interface for Decoder Pro.

[grayfox1119]

NCE Wireless will do all that you want, and has a nice computer interface, seeing you are computer wizard, you will appreciate that feature I am sure. Check them out.

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

NCE Wireless will do all that you want, and has a nice computer interface, seeing you are computer wizard, you will appreciate that feature I am sure. Check them out.

I did not know that. Sorry-Don't want to give false info.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36389
Go read this thread. It will probably answere your questions.I beleive Digitrax(and maybe Lenz) are the only ones with computer interface for Decoder Pro.

actually decoder pro works with a wide variety of DCC command stations
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/hardware/
including a couple i hadn't even heard of before looking at this list

[Anonymous]

The Digitrax Zephyr will do all of what you have described. It is the ONLY starter system that will. It can be had well under 150 bucks. It will run in OPS, and operate up to ten throttles at once. It even has the computer interface.

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

The Digitrax Zephyr will do all of what you have described. It is the ONLY starter system that will. It can be had well under 150 bucks. It will run in OPS, and operate up to ten throttles at once. It even has the computer interface.

I have a Zephyr and it is a great product and has already been expanded. It does not however come equipped with a PC interface. You can get a product like the Locbuffer 2 mentioned earlier in the thread. It works very well and is a well worth addition to the system.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by loathar

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36389
Go read this thread. It will probably answere your questions.I beleive Digitrax(and maybe Lenz) are the only ones with computer interface for Decoder Pro.

Lothar -- thanks for the plug. [;)]

As to DCC system computer interfaces:

NCE: built-in. Uses std DB9 serial cable.
EasyDCC: built-in. Requires custom home-made cable (DB9 to RJ11).
Lenz: costs extra. Add-on uses std DB9 cable.
Digitrax: costs extra. Add-on uses std DB9 cable.

As to my personal preference for DCC systems, that would be NCE or EasyDCC (currently own). I prefer these two systems because of their intuitive user interface. Lenz and Digitrax, on the other hand, have a more obtuse interface that requires you to keep the manual handy to remind you of key sequences.

However, I DO NOT use DCC for things like controlling accessories or signalling. For that I use a cheapie PC and Chubb's CMRI system. I'm also a programmer (30+ years in the field) so heavy duty computer techie things don't intimidate me in the least.

[ClinchValleySD40]

Good answer Joe. Any of the full line systems will accomplish what he wants to do, and none of them are more difficult to wire than any of the others. Regardless of which system you get, the wiring is going to be the same, so not an issue.
Have you tried any? If not, do so. Find the one you are most comfortable with.

[chrismay]

I could be mistaken but with all the peripheral things you want to control using the the computer (light, traffic signals, switch machines, etc.) you will probably need a Super Chief if you go with Digitrax because you will need to be able to run more than 10 decoders. I may be mistaken about that but that is my understanding.

[rrinker]

Nope. The stationary decoders don't count the same as loco decoders. The Zephyr can control 10 locos at a time (actually I think it's 12 - I keep meaning to test this, but the JMRI slot monitor shows 12 slots...), but since the command station does not have to keep track of stationary decoders, the limit is the limit imposed by the NMRA addressing specifications. And also if you have enough power to operate them all. The Digitrax detection and signalling system can, in fact, be used with a non-Digitrax DCC system. You can connect the BDL-168 detectors, SE8C signal controller, and a PC with a Locobuffer all together and not have a Digitrax command station anywhere in the system.

--Randy

[ClinchValleySD40]

Difficult to understand. The poster shows as being in Philly which I know has loads of model railroaders (National convention there next year) and I'm sure a lot of them use DCC. There are also listed plenty of hobby shops. The way to get the best opinion on which system to buy is get out and try as many as possible and see which one fits. Asking on these forums is not the way to go, it just starts arguments on which is best.

[chrismay]

Sorry about the mistaken information. In that case I would jump on a Digitrax Zephyr and stick like white on rice. Without a doubt the nicest less expensive system I have had the pleasure of using. Others will have other opinions but that is mine. You should try using at least 2 or 3 different manufacturers systems right from scratch (program, operate, reprogram, etc.) before you make a decision.

[Anonymous]

You absolutely must get some HANDS ON time with each of the systems you're considering. To me the EasyDCC wireless throttle fits my hand much better than the Digitrax version, AND it comes in versions that work on CTC-80, Lenz, and other. For some other folks' hands the NCE controller feels better, etc. Hold it in your hand, run a train or two with it. Watch it during an op sessions and see how many times the session grinds to a halt because somebody pushed the wrong button -- a problem ten years ago when some systems allowed programming from each hand held unit. If you're considering plug in throttles LOOK AT THE HARDWARE. Will that plug tolerate being plugged in and out in and out in and out in and out or does it look flimsy? You've got to get the hands on time to make the decision. Then, the one that's right for you is the one that's right for you.

Cheers

[rrinker]

That 'plug durability' thing is old hat. That was always Keith's (of CVP) argument for using the phone plugs on his systems, both pre-DCC and Easy-DCC. All you hear is "telephone plugs can't take constant plugging and unplugging" but that has proven to be pretty much false, even in club settings. The two top selling DCC systems use regular old telephone plugs and there is little if any complaint of failure on their respective Yahoo groups.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I didn't mean it came with one, only that it had the ability. Sorry for the confusion. It is still the only starter set that can do that. I got my interface for 12.99, so you can see it'll really break the bank.

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

QUOTE: Originally posted by GearDrivenSteam

The Digitrax Zephyr will do all of what you have described. It is the ONLY starter system that will. It can be had well under 150 bucks. It will run in OPS, and operate up to ten throttles at once. It even has the computer interface.

I have a Zephyr and it is a great product and has already been expanded. It does not however come equipped with a PC interface. You can get a product like the Locbuffer 2 mentioned earlier in the thread. It works very well and is a well worth addition to the system.

[joeh19012]

[:)] [wow]

Thanks to everyone for the tips, references, and advice! I have to continue reading Joe's "DCC Experience" thread and I am DEFINITELY going to check out a bunch of the various systems--no later than next year's convention.

Personally, I think the forums have been terrific places to get information, even if a lot of it is tangled with opinion. It's really difficult to get unbiased information on DCC systems because of the lack of many "neutral" sources. None of the magazines (MR, RMC, etc.) or vendors can afford to offend their advertisers or suppliers, so even their worst reviews would be only tepid. People here tend to speak their minds, and each individual's biases can be interpreted and taken for what they are.

I intend to do my own research as well, reading information from the various vendors, dealers, etc. While Pennsylvania has a good number of hobby shops, there are surprisingly few that are convenient from my location. One nearby I know carries Digitrax, but I don't think they carry any other brand.

I'll check out some open houses as the fall wears on, as there are a few clubs in the area. Finally--and I think this is an advantage--I am not that desperate for a DCC system at this time, so I don't have to make a decision. I can let the technology evolve a little further and let market forces do what they will. By the time I'm ready, I'm hoping that there may be some more RP's and/or standards that could make my decision much easier. And, it may all be cheaper.[:D]

Thanks again.

[rrinker]

I guess you're near Lansdale and Lin's Junction? Good shop.

[joeh19012]

Randy--

I've heard of Lin's Junction, but I've never been there. It's not exactly "down the block" from where I am.

Do you remember Miller's Union Station and Nicholas - Smith from Arch Street, around the Reading Terminal? I used to love those places when I was a kid. Miller's is gone, and Nicholas - Smith is out on the Mainline specializing in O scale and larger. I still have stuff I bought there.