Question regarding TOP SPEED of HO Proto 2000 E-Units and Alco PAs.

[AntonioFP45]

Hello Crew,

For you motor and gear tinkerers; [;)]

I recently test-ran a pair of my P2K E7s on a friend's layout. Both are new, original and in DC mode. My friend had an MRC Railpower 1370 powerpack on his folded dogbone style layout.

I'm a "pretty decent" estimator of scale speed. In pulling a 12 car freight train at full throttle, the top speed seemed to be between 60 and 65 scale m.p.h. whether it was one E7 or a double-header. This is great for freight units, but not so good for my future passenger train service!

While they did run very smoothly, I was a little disappointed. I will be equipping these girls with DCC and Sound decoders and want them to be able to run at a scale 85 m.p.h, which is realistic for E units hauling passenger trains, even in the 1960s.

I did bring up a similar question before regarding Athearn, but here I'm asking specifically about P2K E units and even the Alco PAs. Have any of you that run passenger trains noticed the slow top speed? I'm just thinking that if I repower them with Mashima motors, they would be more efficicent in current draw, but they might not be faster if limited by the trucks' gear ratios.

Helix Humper motors were mentioned on another thread as possibly offering realistic higher speeds in certain locomotives, but does anyone know how they compare to the stock P2K motors?

Your input is appreciated, guys. [C):-)][tup]

Thanks[;)]

[nfmisso]

As you are going with DCC, just run your track voltage high enough to get the speed you want. These locomotives draw lots of current, so make sure that you have a large enough booster, and adequate bus and feeders.

The MRC 1370 does not put out enough voltage at the current level required by these locomotives to reach high speeds. Next test, look at the output voltage of the power pack, and the voltage on the rails near where the locomotive is running.

[ndbprr]

I would much rather have slower speeds with better control than high speeds and drag car starts. Since most if not all model railroads need to compress time to provide sufficient runs slower speed should help lengthen the run by taking longer.

[jrbernier]

The P2K passenger engines are geared a little low. A protoype E unit could be geared for a maximum speed between 85 mph and 117 mph. Most pre-war E's were geared for 117 mph, and 98 mph seemed to be the usual gearing by the time Amtrak picked them up.
As far as 85 mph, most US passenger trains did NOT run that fast. The government regulation on speed/signaling in the 50's limited maximum passenger train speed based on track conditions/signaling systems. Even with 'perfect' track, a passenger train normally would be limited to 79 mph on signaled trackage. 90 or 100 mph operation usually required cab signaling. Parts of the ATSF, Milw, and CB&Q had cab signaling and did run in the 90-100 mph range on those districts. Of interest, the famous CB&Q 'speedway' up the Mississippi River was ABS double track for the most part and was limited to 79 mph running. In spite of that, the Twin Zephyrs held first place on the Trains speed survey year after year, averaging 62 mph for the 431 mile run between Chicago and St Paul, and averaging 67-68 mph around the Prairie du Chien area.

Jim

[Anonymous]

And the ROCKETS, near the end of the line, ran at a blazing 40 mph !!!

Better check your road (and date) for the speed you need !

[Anonymous]

I have absolutely no speed problems with my older P2K, E7's or PA's.
The E's fly and the PA's not too far behind. I'm DC using MRC 9500 series
that pumps out between 16 & 19 volts.

It's needs six feet to stop when I abruptly bring it to a halt.

[Don Gibson]

TAMPA TONY:

Many of the prototype E-6's could do 100MPH - but NOT on 1880's track. What are your curves?.

MODEL WISE my P2K Alco's run faster than my (old) E-7 - Don't ask. They're just too many variables. The ONE great equalizer is your VOLTAGE knob on one's DC or DCC system, but EVERYTHING is relative - compared to what?

Your DCC system start's with an 14V - 16V transformer which makes a difference in your final voltage - speed wise. Amperage is power consumed. Voltage is speed. Your system uses (and drops) voltage in it's electronic's - DCC Controller - Booster's - receiving modules - onboard sound - and track wiring.- In short what is your motor getting? I use hefty 14V /4A transformers as overkill, and by the time it get's through the solid state electronic's it's 10.5 Volts.

In GENERAL, can motor's run slower than open frame, and the faster can motor's are smaller, and have less torque. A 'Helix Humper' runs faster than a Mashima and pull's more amps. HOW it compares to any brand X is conjecture at best, without a pair of good meters. How many of us modeler's use meter's? The only current MRC pak with meter's is the 9500. How about the Zephyr? or Lenz??

I agree with rfmisso he's right on, whether he uses meter's or not..

[AntonioFP45]

Gentlemen,

My gratitude to you all as I appreciate your comments and info!

To answer some of the questions/comments:

Crawling speed is just as important as the higher speed. I like smooth, slow take offs.[;)]

(1) I'm modeling Seaboard Coast Line and its hotshot passenger expresses which regularly hit 80 m.p.h between Washington and Florida in certain double track stretches. SCL did a good job of maintaining the major North/South main line tracks (too bad the same can't be said for many of their secondary lines!). But even in the 1960s, when running late, engineers would make those 567 diesels sweat!

(2) DCC for the E units will be either Digitrax 163 combined with a Soundtraxx DSX decoder OR..... (please don't laugh, I'm trying not to) the Tsunami decoder! Lighting effects will be Circuitron Mars light with bulbs, LED headlights and backup lights. Some Walthers passenger cars will be lighted. So I realize I wll need the proper power boosters.

(3) While my own layout will hopefully be a reality soon I'm in the process of joining the Suncoast Model Railroad Club. This gorgeous club layout has long stretches where 80 scale mph running with long passenger trains is possible.

(4) DCC system for my layout will be the Digitrax Zephyr since 1 to 2 trains will be running (though sound equipped locomotives may be "idling" at the engine service building)

I'm a little clearer now, based on the above input. That MRC 1370 powerpack on my friend's layout was lacking in the "Oomph!" department as I forgot that early P2K units are "amp eaters". I will perform a current-stall test on them.

Even though I've been reading about DCC, my poor brain will sometimes "vapor-lock" over something small or trivial that I learned YEARS ago, or should easily figure out.


Thanks guys!

[Anonymous]

I believe MR did the E7 review around 98. I could mail you a copy should you wish.

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you, Chuck!

[Don Gibson]

TAMPA-TONIO
Your electronic modules and diode lighting will drop the voltage ultimately going to to the motor since the are in SERIES with it. How much is the question. (Probably 3 - 5 volts).

What performance comparison's are between 3 different motor's @ 9 Volts will be problematical since you are setting the perameters. Certainly a motor with lower torque will not gain any on less voltage, nor the slower motor gain any speed.

WHY dont you start with your E-7's and DCC system with modules of your choice, THEN see if you need more speed . GO from there.

[AntonioFP45]

O.K Don,

I see what you're saying, however I'm a little confused when you state "modules of my choice". Are you referring to the specific decoders?

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

O.K Don,

I'm a little confused when you state "modules of my choice". Are you referring to the specific decoders?

YES. the one you buy, Sountraxx or whoever - (or is it whomever?)

RE: Steve's 'Tsunami' . I strongly suspect their voltage characteristic's will remain the same as higher sound output (watts) is 'amp' related.

EDIT: Are your "P2K E-7'S with the QSI sound module? If so, all bet's are off. These use the first 6 volts to activate the sound on DC.

[rrinker]

Yes but the QSI modules on DC probably let more of the FULL voltage through than the 4 or so diode drops you get from the non-sound P2K light boards. If the diode board is lost when plugging ina decoder (such as the GP-7's, when using a Digitrax DH163L0 decoder), you can get as close to full voltage as you're gonna get to the motor. I have a few E-units to convert, and after tracing out the circuit board and drawing a schematic - that board is FLYING. And these are simple PRR units with no mars light circuitry!
I'm not sure what Life-Like is up to with these different units, but the GP-7's run a decent speed. The P2K DL109 and P2K SD45 though, they run at warp speed and need Vmax kicked back to about 50% of the top value for reasonable speeds.

--Randy

[AntonioFP45]

Don, Rrinker.

Thanks very much for your input. Once I select which Soundtraxx unit I'm going to use, I'll see than what I have to deal with as far as voltage and current usages. A good friend of mine is willing to help me with the electronics aspect of the hobby.

Also, an Interesting turn of events that I'm going to look at. MRC "supposedly" will have new and improved sound decoders. I hope the quality is comparable to Soundtraxx's. The more options we have, the better.

High Greens!

[rrinker]

One thing to keep in mind is you might not get mega speed from the Zephyr - the track voltage is fixed at about 12v to make the unit suitable for HO and smaller scales. The larger Digitrax boosters have a switch to select track voltage, 12v for N scale, 14.5v for HO, and 18v for O and up. Depending of course on your input power supply - you can't power the booster with a 15v power supply and expect 18v to come out.
It's hard to judge, but still think the loss through the decoder drive is less than the loss through Life-Like's convoluted circuitry in DC mode. How fast it will actually be, you won't know until you do one. Or I do - not sure if any of those are on the list for this current batch of decoders or not. But the insnae speed DL109 and SD45 - that's with a Zephyr! With a bigger booster set to the HO setting for 2 more volts - YIKES! The E's do seem to have different motors that draw more current probably wound for power rather than speed.
I'll stick with the lower voltage of the Zephyr though - if I had additional boosters they'll get set on the N scale setting - better for the light bulbs.

--Randy

[AntonioFP45]

Interesting point about the motors used in the E-units. With the weight inside, these locomotives are pretty heavy. Would make sense that the motors would be wound for pulling power rather than speed. One P2K E7 will pull a Lonnnnnng train!

I also wonder that since the P2K E7s that are sold today "New in the Box" were actually manufactured from 1998 thru 2001, it would stand to reason that Life Like's overseas manufacturer upgraded motors as newer models hit the market. Though similar in appearance, newer P2K locomotive motors don't have the amp draw that the 1998 E7s have.

Re SD45:
A good friend pointed out that my P2K Special Edition SD45 is, indeed, "special" since it came equipped with an efficient "Kato clone" motor instead of the standard "Athearn clone" motor. Ironically, while I bought it brand new, it has a problem. When throttled up slowly, it buzzes and takes off in a jerky fashion. When you try to make it crawl at about 5 scale m.p.h......it stops and buzzes. MId and High speed range is fine. I'll eventually take her apart with the help of my friend. Hopefully it's a minor problem.

Many Cheers.

[rrinker]

Is that with a decoder, or on DC? The one I have is also a "Special Edition" but I thought they all were. The motors looks pretty mucht he same as the one in my GP7'sm but external appearances can be deceiving.
If the wierd operation is on DCC - what decoder? If it's a Digitras Series 3 (DH163xx varient), I have some CV settigns that might help. With a DH163L0 mine ran really poorly, HUGE speed jump at about 15-20% power, and poor controllability. I did al ittle tweaking of the 3 CV's Digitrax uses to control torque compensation and it's MUCH better now.

--Randy

[AntonioFP45]

Randy,

She's standard DC, straight out of the box. It's a mechanical or electrical problem, for sure. After my friend and I get it apart and check out, I'll post the results.

[rrinker]

OK, I never ran mine much on DC, a coupll of trips around forward and reverse using Address 00 and then I put the decoder in it. I'd have to lean towards mechanical as there are no active electronic components in it that could alter the response at various voltages, just the diodes which have a fixed voltage drop. Unless they REALLY cloned the Kato motor in one of my father-in-law's RS-3's, there was a drop of glue or somethignon one of the commutator segments that made it run poorly and sometimes get stuck and not restart. He was just going to order a replacement motor so i figured I'd take the old one apart, I couldn't very well make it worse. I found the glue spot, polished the commutator, and now it runs like a champ.

--Randy

[jimrice4449]

All the talk of exotic cicutry piqued my interestt so I went out to the train room and ran some tests.
I have a stretch of track 30'4" long marked off. That's half a scale mile. I worked out a chart (from the back of an employees' timetable) to relate timings to MPH. My power packs (analog) are mounted in frames that include voltmeters and ammeters. tested 4 2-unit sets with the following results. All were light engine.
E-7 and E-6 w/ factory lights @12 V. 80MPH and 6/10 amp power draw.
E-9 w/ Richmond controls head/Mars light unit 78 MPH and 6/10 amp power draw
Alco DL-109 w/factory lights 120MPH and slightly under 2/10 amp power draw.
That Alco is going to get a diode drop lighting system! It's the power for my 1942 Aternoon Hiawatha and that puppy flew, but come on! 120MPH?

[AntonioFP45]

Hello JIm.

Thank you very much for posting your results!

I finally have some time to shop and am going today to buy a new digital meter today at an electronics supply store. Looks like from your readings the E units will cut the mustard with sufficient power since with DCC higher voltages are available. I'm looking forward to converting mine to DCC. I'm going to put a Mashima in at least one of my E-units

As for your Alco DL-109.........Wow! That thing is ripping Metroliner speeds! The prototypes would have probably thrown a couple of connecting rods at that rate.

HIgh Greens!