UP policy: The Aftermath

[Fergmiester]

JUst curious to see if UP's policy has had any influence on the market or to see if it changed anyone's direction in the hobby?

Fergie

[Adelie]

I replied "yes" Fergie, even though I don't model UP. I do have several "existing" UP freight cars for the Bunter Ridge, since the UP system would be close by. I pick up freight cars here and there, a lot on ebay. Obviously they get no fee from ebay stuff, except if it was originally sold prior to their policy. I sort of stopped buying UP cars out of principal.

Before people start complaining that UP has a perfect right to do what they are doing, I would concede that. And I have a perfect right to not buy products that they license or that in any way promote them. They are not the only company that I boycott in some way....some for policies I just don't want my dollars to fund and others for poor products or services.

[Anonymous]

I voted yes - I didn't own any UP equipment before the charging was introduced, but I definitely won't be buying any now. I agree that they have the right to do this but it just seems sad that they are so desperate to post increased profits that they'll charge for the use of their logos on a model train. I recall reading of the ATSF's involvement in the original Lionel Warbonnet F3 - that's how it should be. Over here, there's a good relationship between manufacturers and train operating companies - some of whom won't license aftermarket decals (as they have no control over their use apparently) but are willing to work with RTR manufacturers to ensure that the result is a high-quality model. I've heard the argument that models are essentially free advertising - not sure how much of a consideration that would be over there, but I'd guess there were a few people who wanted to ride the Acela after owning the Bachmann model. In passenger rail terms I'd say it's a valid point, though with freight it's not as solid an argument - freight traffic choices have more to do with cold, hard economics than perception of the haulier. Is the extra money really worth alienating millions of model railroaders?

[Fergmiester]

Adelie: You've made good points. Another question I should of asked was "Has anyone seen any difference between the price of UP stuff as opposed to other roadnames?".

[Anonymous]

So ... what about the AMTRAK policy (if effect before the UP!), and now the CSX policy ???

Gonna quit buying them, too ?????

[Anonymous]

Fergie,

I chose "doesn't matter" because UP has never loomed that large on my radar screen to begin with.

But to answer your second question, I was persuing the M.B. Klein website yesterday and I noticed a $5 price difference between some Athearn locos in UP paint versus non-UP schemes.

[Anonymous]

I voted: I sold my UP stuff in discust.
I did have a UP SD90MAC but I sold it to a friend of mine.

BNSFrailfan.

[Fergmiester]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

So ... what about the AMTRAK policy (if effect before the UP!), and now the CSX policy ???

Gonna quit buying them, too ?????

Sorry I didn't know they had similiar policies. So the question remains has their policies influenced you?

[IRONROOSTER]

Since I am modeling eastern roads, I don't need much UP. I have one stock car and some reefers with UP on them, that will probably be it. Haven't seen any price difference in S scale yet.
Enjoy
Paul

[Adelie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey

So ... what about the AMTRAK policy (if effect before the UP!), and now the CSX policy ???

Gonna quit buying them, too ?????

I can't quit what I never started! I model 1958 in the Southwest and southern Rockies. No CSX or Amtrak back then.

[CraigN]

I voted no. It hasn't influenced my buying at all. But that's because I haven't bought anything but track for my new railroad.
I am selling off most all my N scale engines but for a different reason. ( I want a DCC system and 40 or so tortoise switch machines)

[palallin]

I have never modelled the UP, BUT I *do* model two predecessor roads, the MoPac and the T & P. As the law is much murkier on these fallen flags, I don't believe that the policy has affected me all that much. That belief is bolstered by the fact that most of what I have yet to buy was produced before the policy went into effect.

That said, the policy has affected my decal purchases. I buy my decals from Oddballs (unless he just doesn't produce exactly what I need), and Tom started his company on MoPac products. MoPac makes up just about the largest chunk of his catalog still, so he upped ALL of his prices to cover the costs. I don't like that choice, but I can sympathize with it.

As the other road I model is the Frisco, I'm OK there till the Been Nothin' Since Frisco decideds to follow suit, assuming they try to collect on the fallen gflags, too.

[cacole]

UP's policy has not changed by modeling habits at all, because I prefer mid-western roads such as the Illinois Central, Missouri Pacific, Nickel Plate, Wabash, etc.

UP is the only mailine railroad running through southern Arizona (the Sunset Route), so trainwatching is rather limited and I have to travel 30 miles just to do that.

If I see something I like decorated for UP or any ot their predecessor roads such as SP, I buy it regardless of their corporate policies.

[Anonymous]

Here is some info from one of Atlas's recent loco announcements:

ITEM# ROAD NAME ROAD NUMBER
HO Dash 8-40C Locomotive - Atlas Master Gold Series
(With Decoder & Sound)
9695 Undecorated (Phase 1)
9696 Undecorated (Phase 2)
9622 Chicago & North Western† "Wyoming Centennial" (Traditional Yellow/Green) 8542
9623 Chicago & North Western† (Traditional Yellow/Green) 8567
9624 Chicago & North Western† "Safety & Reliability" (Traditional Yellow/Green) 8577
9625 Chicago & North Western† (Traditional Yellow/Green) No #
9626 Conrail Quality (Blue/White) 6025
9627 Conrail Quality (Blue/White) 6048
9628 Conrail Quality (Blue/White) No#
9629 CSX* (Gray/Blue) 7511
9630 CSX* (Gray/Blue) 7534
9631 CSX* (Gray/Blue) No#
9632 Norfolk Southern (Black/White) 8712
9633 Norfolk Southern "Horsehead" (Black/White) 8742
9634 Norfolk Southern (Black/White) No #
9635 Union Pacific† "Baby Wings" (Yellow/Gray/Red) 9077
9636 Union Pacific† "Baby Wings" (Yellow/Gray/Red) 9091
9637 Union Pacific† "Baby Wings" (Yellow/Gray/Red) No#

*CSX Licensed Product
†Union Pacific Licensed Product

To find a dealer to order your HO DASH 8-40C Locomotives, click here.

Estimated Delivery: September 2005
Atlas Master™ Series Silver MSRP: $134.95
Atlas Master™ Series Gold MSRP: $244.95

As you can see, there is no difference in price between, say NS or undec (not licensed) and UP or CSX - both licnesed. Atlas has incorporated the fees (UP and CSX) into the cost of the models - ALL of them !!!

Walthers does the same thing with the AMTRAK Phase V license fee.

I bet soon all makers will handle it this way - the fee will be invisable except for the "licensed product" statement.

Even Athearn - who was charging the fee a good while before they started paying it to UP (did they keep the money or finally pay it to UP, I wonder ???) - will end up doing it this way, I bet.

BTW, there is no extra charge at the dealer, either (in this case, M.B. Klein, MTS):

150-7639 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND CSX #7501 $134.95 $89.99
150-7640 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND CSX #7521 $134.95 $89.99
150-7641 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND CSX NO# $134.95 $89.99
150-7642 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND NS #8300 $134.95 $89.99
150-7643 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND NS #8735 (HORSEHEAD) $134.95 $89.99
150-7644 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND NS NO# $134.95 $89.99
150-7645 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND UP #9067 (BABY WINGS)
150-7646 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND UP #9073 (BABY WINGS) $134.95 $89.99
150-7647 Atlas - (R) DASH 8-40C LOCOMOTIVE WITHOUT DECODER & NO SOUND UP NO# (BABY WINGS)

Not bad prices from MTS!

[twhite]

I model two and a half of the railroads that UP swallowed up (Rio Grande, SP and a little WP), and so far haven't noticed a price difference on rolling stock I buy decorated for those roads. However, as pointed out, the situation with the UP 'fallen flag' roads is kind of murky, and I don't know how that's going to come out. But whenever I think of the Santa Fe PAYING Lionel to decorate their incredibly popular F-3 diesel in Warbonnet colors back in the 'fifties, the more I think that UP has their priorities screwed up. But except for PFE reefers, I only have a couple of UP freight cars--their standard WWII paint schemes never turned me on, anyway.
Tom

[trainfan1221]

New nscale engines are expensive enough without tacking on a few dollars for the UP scheme. If I saw one I really liked I would probably splirge, bit since on my RR its mostly generic stuff it doesn't make sense to bother with the extra price.

[Anonymous]

Back in the 50's the major railroads had PASSENGER trains, so looked at models as advertisements for paying customers. The customers are now FREIGHT companies, and a MRR does NOTHING to get the railroads any new business !!!

The only exception would be AMTRAK, but even they have a fee (it's just more invisable, as I said before).

You can't compare 50's to 05's - either in REAL or MODEL RRs !!!

[trainboyH16-44]

I used to have a UP passenger car, but I repainted it in disgust. It's now a CPR coach. No more UP interchange, it was 'Bought out' by BN (era 1988) Now all I need is a pair of BLI -2s!
Matthew

[Anonymous]

Nope. I continue to buy UP and CSX. Can't have enough of my favorite roads.

[Anonymous]

Actually, not buying UP models (or CSX or AMTRAK, as they have fees, too) hurts the model maker FAR more than the railroad !!!

And, indirectly, the MRR hobby !!!!!!!

What such actions WILL do is to force even more dependence by the model makers on pre-orders, and if not enough pre-orders are received, the maker will drop the model (If you don't think that will happen, Atlas just did it with their Taurus cars!). And that hurts the hobby, IMHO.

I think that the major RRs could care less if models are made or not. As I said above, it is no longer a form of advertising (T-shirts, pins and hats are far superior in this regard!), and the fee is very "small change" compared to their other sources of income.

The only real reason (and true culprit) for the fees are the current US laws make it very difficult to show ownership if you "give away" your trademark (say, on a loco model).

I look for other railroads than UP, CSX, and AMTRAK to add fees in the future - and for the same reason - trademark protection.

BTW - don't buy any Athearn COKE or JOHN DEERE products, either - licence fees are in effect for those, too.

And, of course, the FORD cars by Atlas !

[Adelie]

The hole in the theory that not buying UP hurts the hobby is that most of will simply buy some other road name or an undecorated model. When I decide I need x-number of box cars, I am going to buy x-number of box cars. What is at issue is simply whether or not any are decorated with UP. Yes, if enough people do that, the manufacturer will drop the UP decorated box cars from the product line. But if next to nobody is buying them, that's fine and well, too. Supply and demand takes over in its rawest form.

As far as protecting their trademark, they can do that with licensing agreements but without fees-simply reserving the right to review the proposed model for authenticity (or not). I would suspect they would object to a UP hopper with the some obsenity printed in graffiti next to the logo. Otherwise, they would probably care less, as long as the trademark is not being used by a competitor, in a derogatory fashion, or in an effort to confuse someone else's interest as theirs.

Advertising it is not, unless maybe a large club is modeling UP somewhere visible. What it is, however, is public relations, albeit in a small platform.

In short, when a company goes down a path that I find it objectionable, I voice that objection with my dollars. You can voice your approval or disapproval any civilized way you choose, including doing absolutely nothing. We all make our decisions.

The only noticeable difference to me is that I will have more freight cars carrying the livery of someone other than UP. Some of those will wind up in Bunter Ridge livery, which, unless the dog has changed his mind, was not charging me a licensing fee.

[Anonymous]

As I pointed out, Mark, it is not just about UP.

CSX and AMTRAK also have fees !
As does GM, FORD, JOHN DEERE, COKE, ...........................

Will not having UP, CSX, and AMTRAK models hurt the hobby - yes, if you model any real major RR line !!

For me, UP uses the IMRL (now ICE) tracks in Iowa that I model - so I have a UP train. AMTRAK cuts across southern Iowa (the Zephyr), so it is on the layout, too.

But what will REALLY hurt the hobby is if the model maker can't count on general sales and thus has more and more dependance on the pre-order mode, perhaps with models limited to ONLY a pre-order amount . If the ONLY way we can get models is by pre-ordering them, I think the hobby is hurt !!!

As far as just "reviewing" the model (and the T-shirt, book, pin, mug, ....) goes, why should the major RRs do this ???? It cost them money to have someone do this (one good reason for the fee). It would be FAR easier (and cheaper) for them to just refuse to allow ANY models (or T-shirts, or .....) to be made. Ever notice there are no models of McDonalds on the layout ??? McDonalds just said NO !!! If the major RRs just gave up and said that NO models could be made with their logos (no decals, either!), I think the hobby would be hurt, too, IMHO !!!

You must not buy anything with a logo (to include your favorite sports team) on it - ALL: of them have fees you are paying to the company - its just that UP and CSX are more open about it !!!!!!!!

[Adelie]

I'm not sure why you seem to think I should feel an obligation to award a company any share of my money, directly or indirectly, when they behave in a manner I find objectionable.

I agree that there is no need for RRs to do this. But keep in mind I think this whole thing is a chicken-hatched idea cooked up by either the legal department or the accounting department to squeeze more nickels out of thin air. Frankly, from the RR perspective, it really isn't worth the hassle of getting involved, even with the fees. In the world of trademarks, if it is not being used by a competitor, being disparaged or being used to confuse interests, it is simply not worth it, in my opinion. Particularly when the user in question is actually a low level promoter. There are enough genuine problems out there to solve without them spending their time creating problems.

The difference with sports teams (and I haven't bought anything with a team logo in years), they actually market their logos on "stuff." Many have their own stores to sell the "stuff" and they certainly sell it on their web sites. That is a fair-sized business for them. Thus, anyone wanting to sell clothing, caps, whatever with the logo should pay the fee. Their "stuff" cuts into the profits of the team's "stuff" using the team's logo. The logo is what sells.

UP does not sell 1/87 models of their equipment. They can start if they want, but they don't. Atlas is not their competitor. Atlas is not likely to cause confusion in the railroad business by selling HO-scale 8-40CWs in UP livery. Atlas is also not likely to place disparaging graffiti after the UP logo. If they did, UP would have a perfect right to object. Nor is Atlas claiming that the UP logo belongs to them. Atlas may have a duty to inform the buyer that UP is not involved in the manufacturer or sale of the HO scale locomotive, which any idiot would know. But, since we want to reduce things to the least common denominator these days, a disclaimer can be used.

As far as the model maker counting on sales, they'll do the same market analysis they do now, and make the same educated guesses they do now. That may mean more undecorated models are sold. That may mean they take orders prior to producing models in a particular road name.

You're right, I tend to not buy much with logos. I'm not a walking billboard. There is not much of a choice with athletic shoes these days, but that doesn't mean I like it (most are down-right ugly, anyway).

Last time I checked, we are still a semi-free country. We are free to differ on this and other issues, and free to vote with our dollars as we see fit.

In short, feel free to buy what you want but allow me to buy what I want, or refrain from buying what I don't want. And telling me that my decision to not purchase items requiring a licensing fee will bring the hobby to a fiery grave is not scoring any points here.

[Anonymous]

Some FINAL points:

The Georgia Bulldogs (thru the UGA) or the Chicago Cubs (thru MLB) are not in the business of making ball caps or T-shirts either, but both change a fee for some other maker to produce them and sell them to the fans, who pay the fee when they buy the product. Direct sales by campus bookstores or ballpark stores are dwarfed by those by other "sports" stores (check out any mall). In this regard, I see little difference between, say, the Chicago Cubs getting a fee for a T-shirt sold in my local mall and UP getting a fee for an Atlas Dash8-40CW when I buy it from my LHS.

Second, the "plot" was not hatched by UP to raise money (it's PENNIES compared to their other revinue sources), but by the COURTS, ruling on trademark laws passed by CONGRESS. Companies were in effect told to take control of the logos or lose them. The clearest (legal) way to do this is by charging user fees. And as I pointed out, the AMTRAK license fee (thru Walthers for the Phase V models) was in place BEFORE the UP fee !!!

Third, I didn't "tell" YOU what or what not to buy - I just projected the results if most modelers boycotted ALL models by fee-charging RRs. Judging by the poll, only half of those who model such are boycotting UP (and I suppose CSX and AMTRAK, too, if they are to be consistant), so the impact is unclear.

OK folks, I'm done - let's get back to the hobby !

Gonna buy the new Atlas UP Dash 8-40BW ??? [;)]

[dehusman]

Actually when it comes right down to it, MR's decision to stop printing schedules of events in the magazine will have more far reaching and more negative effects than anything the UP or any other RR has done with licensing.

Has anybody canceled their subscription?

Dave H.

[bcawthon]

I haven't changed very much for the simple reason I quit buying UP stuff after they completely bollixed up all rail transport here in Houston. This was shortly after they took over the SP and, as always, were looking for ways to run a railroad for free.

As to the fees, I have found that very interesting. No matter how you feel about licensing in general, UP's program isn't too bad in terms of compliance. Keep the records any business would keep to track inventory and know what is and is not selling and there shouldn't be much trouble. Once every reporting period, you run the program you have cleverly set up to capture this information (not that hard with Excel or a decent database program), tote up the wholesale value and send the appropriate fee to UP.

I know a bit about pricing structures and from some of the prices I have seen, a few manufacturers have discovered a dandy little profit center which they can blame on Union Pacific. I am sure this is not the case with Tom Stolte; he's running a small operation and his costs of compliance are far higher per unit sold than one of the larger companies.

[Virginian]

I said no because I do not model UP, CSX, or Amtrak. Fortunately, so far NS has not been bitten by the stoopid bug. Judging by their ads they seem to have a slightly better perception of good PR than the others.

[TomcatVF-211]

This is my first post here, normally I just listen but this is a subject that really irks me to no end. For those of you who didn't know this actually started long ago by the Canadian Air Force (you know, one F/A-18 with many paint jobs, guy goes home at 6:00 everynight) and a small model aircraft decal company called Leading Edge, Seems the CAF wanted royalties from this little model company, ridiculous in my opinion. But now here comes big bad UP, swallows up all our favorite roads and then expects the model companies and hobbyists to pay them!!!!!!????? Don't they have enough money, they even have their own private fleet of Aircraft, I know, I have worked on them from time to time. I have noticed prices on UP stuff going up and will absolutely not buy anymore stuff with UP on it, but the thing that kills me is that as a Diehard ESPEE modeler now I have to pay UP for what they did to the ESPEE, as if to add insult to injury. Now here is the kicker, more and more companies are heading in this direction, a model of a Boeing F-15, guess what, gotta pay the man, where is this going to end?????? I find it disgusting that Corporate America does not have enough money from their allready inflated prices but now they have to squeeze the little guy (you and me) for more money. This new policy of UP's is definitely going to have a big impact on me, now everytime I see one of their proud locomotives thundering by I am going to show them who I think is number one[:D]

[Adelie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gbailey


OK folks, I'm done - let's get back to the hobby !

[;)]

I'll drink to that[:D]

No Dash 8-40BW of any sort. It is still 1958 in my basement! Calendar pages turn slowly down there.

On the bright side, I did actually get some work done on the layout during the long weekend. So the layout is not completely dormant for the summer!

Cheers, gbailey.

And next week on point/counterpoint: Concrete or wood ties...the battle rages on. Don't miss it!
[:o)][}:)][:o)]

[cwclark]

I usually model modern day SP and to keep it prototype, I included some UP stuff on my layout to simulate the buyout...but now since UP has done what they did, i'm just going to stick with SP and think i'm going to stop at the year 1996 when UP bought out SP...chuck