Hard-to-find items and price negotiation

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine was planning to buy an item from an out-of-state HS that was discontinued by Walthers a few years back. Problems was, the dealer wanted MSRP for it. My friend was going to try to talk him down, figuring that the guy would be anxious to unload an item that had collected dust for the past 2 years.

Outside of eBay, this concept has never even occurred to me - haggling for a discount; I was usually too grateful to have found the rare item to think about that. Have I been getting ripped off over the years? I'd like to hear how some of you normally handle this...

[cacole]

Most hobby shops paid an inflated price for an item when it was first released, than you can find the item for after the market becomes saturated and there is no more demand for it.

We had a LHS here, for example, that was still asking full MSRP for a Bachmann Spectrum HO-scale Consolidation three years after they were released and the prices had dropped to lower than what it cost him. He wouldn't budge on his price because he would have lost money on the deal -- so it sat on his shelves until he went out of business because he could not compete with mail order sources.

[Adelie]

Most of the out-of-production stuff I've bought, and I've bought a lot of it, has come from ebay and at prices acceptable to me. I've bought a few things like that from the LHS, and the thought of haggling with them did not occur to me, either. Like you, I was just grateful to find it. I did wander into a great deal on a new, but out-of-production Digitrax Genesis II system a month ago at the LHS. No haggling, but I essentially bought the booster I needed at his normal price (less than retail) and got the throttle, jacks and cable tester for free. In that case, he had probably had it in stock for 2 years or more and was eager to part with it.

In general, if I am looking for a deal, I scour ebay. I'm more price conscious there, I guess. So if your getting ripped off by the LHS on this type of stuff, I'm riding that boxcar with you.

[lyctus]

I'm a retailer, and I sympathise with the LHS with the now hard to find, 2y.o. stock. Look at it from the retailers point of view, he has had his money tied up in this item having bought it expecting,say 8 weeks or so to sell it, and now when he is going to make, really, given the time factor, not much out of it, he has a willing buyer who now wants to haggle him down. Haggling is demeaning for a shopfront retailer, it feels like car boot sale stuff to do it, and the customer is really bargaining with his income..do you have to haggle with your paymaster each week for your full pay,..... " or how about, this week we only pay you 92.5% of your pay??" I think not.
The hobby shop has got what you want. Walthers set a fair retail price suggestion for the item. Pay the man the money and enjoy the item, and move on ! It's not ,like a new car , $XXXXX !!

[Jacktal]

Great reply Lyctus!...Great thinking.If I was in the seller's shoes,I wouldn't accept this kind of dealing.Having your investment tied down for a certain time is costly and if for too long,you end up loosing anyway,even at MSRP.So I'd rather have a total loss than have a haggler benefit from it.

[Anonymous]

Why on earth would a retailer mark down a "hard-to-find item?"

Wayne

[selector]

On the other hand, why go to the extent where you have to shut 'er down? Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water!

If I had cash flow problems (and I have never been in retail), I would unload stock at the best price I could get so that I could pay a good portion of my bills and invoices. If it is a constant problem, then the market simply doesn't exist, and the store should be closed. If the gambit buys me another month of ops before the gavel comes down, I would seriously consider it, if for no other reason than my staff expect no less from their manager.

[Anonymous]

I have been watching some items on ebay sell for way way higher than retail. The bidding wars are not very buyer friendly.

If an item is truly rare there probably will be a price for it.

[Anonymous]

When the deal is struck, both parties need to determine that individually they are happy. If the cost is too high or the profit too low then don't consumate the deal. Bargaining can be effective in closing a deal. Failure to bargain by the dealer indicates he has enough faith that the deal he is looking for will occur within his parameters. Other dealers may be just happy to not lose their shirt on a shelf queen and turn the revenue and shelf space to something more profitable. The bargain isn't always about cash. Some of the best deals I paid for was MSRP but included the sellers time, help and advise. You may find after the deal you overpaid or you under recieved but you made the decision you did when you did with what you had. Take it as a lesson learned and move on. I try not to pay to high or charge to little but I occasionally succumb to my 'Gimme, gimme, gimme' moments on purchases and 'who'd want that' on sales. Do remember that stores are not intended to be non-profits. They need a reason to be there or else the proprieter will find something more profitable to do with his time and assets. A local customer base means there is a reason to stock those little items you forgot to put on your last mail-order.

[twhite]

Look at it this way--supposing that discontinued item was suddenly re-issued by Walthers--it would be re-issued at TODAY'S prices, not what the price was two years ago. The buyer is getting a discontinued and hard to find item at what really amounts to a two-year old discount! Why haggle?
Tom[;)]

[dwRavenstar]

I can hear my Dad saying "The first instance sets the pattern."

When the retailer lets the first item go at the discount price the buyer will most likely expect everything that has a light patina of dust to carry the same or a greater discount.
Over time the "accepted" discount becomes the starting point for negotiations.

Though still in the initial stages of the relationship with my new LHS I have already been fortunate enough to have several small items; adhesive, insulated joiners, a sack of track nails and the like; tossed in the bag as "extras" when making my purchases for numerous and more expensive items. (All at the price he was asking at the time.)

Back in the days of my previous layouts the LHS owner would often grin and ask for a few dollars less than the amount that popped up on the register screen. In response I would return the grin and reach for a few brushes, a Bright Boy or yet another carton of Hydrocal just to sweeten the pot and assure that my "discount" would be assured on my next visit. If experience is an educator I would say I'm about two years and a couple $K away from having that kind of interaction with my new supplier. All the same I'd say I'm on the curve and headed in the proper direction.

The most valuable "extra" or "freebie" that you get from a discussion with the knowledgable owner of your LHS isn't found through haggling or self-serving negotiation. You'll discover it when you're driving home, thinking about everything he'd said during the thirty minutes of BS-ing you exchanged while you were collecting and ringing up your purchases. The tip that isn't found in the books, the insight or short-cut that will make your current project fall together more easily, the story that still has you laughing (much to the amazement and curiosity of pedestrians) at the third light on the drive home are your windfall.

Lyctus makes a valid point. When HR tells me they're running a discount on my payroll this Friday you can bet I'll be punching someone else's clock by the first of the month. There's little or no place for insults in a working relationship and if you're not working on becoming friends with your MRR supplier you might as well develop a workable excuse and just shoplift everything you think should be given to you.

Now, do I leave the soapbox here or should I drag it back over to the storage locker?

Dave Wyland (dwRavenstar)

[:I][:I][:I][:I][:I][:I]

[Jetrock]

A retailer will charge whatever they think the market will bear. While it's nice when you find it, no retailer should feel obligated to lower MSRP "just because."

From the hobby shops I have seen, two years is not that much itme for an item to sit on a store shelf, especially a non-perishable item like a kit. If it became a recurring pattern it might be time to consider a markdown, but that is the retailer's option.

If you felt like you got a good deal on an item, then you DID! There is no need to feel ripped off simply because someone else someday got a better deal.

[Virginian]

Let me see if I am hearing this right. The retail hobby shop owner should not be subjected to the demeaning action of haggling. Furthermore he shouldn't budge on his pricing because surely it was set fairly. It is messing with his income.
Well, it's my income that is to be spent. Therefore, when I encounter this type of LHS, I only buy whatever they have that I have to have that no one else has, or it isn't worth the drive, etc., and it's usually only small stuff. I do not take their time to show me anything, but I do look, so I have a better feel for what I will surely be ordering at a huge discount. Usually bigger stuff.
While this type of co-existence obviously works, guess who's income is likely to be affected negatively sooner?
Fortunately, my LHS offers very good discounts on big stuff, close enough to the internet dealers, that I would rather get it from him. He is just a nice friendly guy, too. I have haggled a little with him, and usually he started it. And he knows what I like so I usually left with it.
We have a couple of LARGE hobby shops herebouts, and they are WELL stocked, but they are too darned expensive to get much of my trade. I have to work pretty good for my dollars, and I like to deal with people who work for theirs too.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Virginian

Let me see if I am hearing this right. The retail hobby shop owner should not be subjected to the demeaning action of haggling. Furthermore he shouldn't budge on his pricing because surely it was set fairly. It is messing with his income.

No, you're not hearing this right. The hobby shop owner is not under any obligation to accept haggling, but neither is the buyer under any obligation to accept MSRP. A dealer might be encouraged to lower a price if he thinks he'll make a sale, just as a buyer might be encouraged to buy at a lower price--but neither party is OBLIGATED to do so. It's a voluntary cooperative effort between the seller and the buyer.

A dealer may not be willing to drop his price below a certain point because he wants to make up his own costs (Yes, he pays wholesale prices, but must also pay for shop rent, electricity, paying his employees, his kids' braces, etcetera.) He might even be willing to sell the item at a loss if other factors are involved (to generate goodwill, to clear out old merchandise, etcetera.) But it's not really good business practices to sell things so cheaply that he loses money--and that is the seller's decision, not the buyer's, to make.

[Anonymous]

How much are we talking about here anyway? A few dollars, ten, twenty, more? Life is too short to be seen as a cheapskate. If you are lucky enough to find the out of production item you've been looking for, BUY IT! End your quest. Or perhaps while dickering someone else will buy it!

I have an out of town model railroad friend who used to drop in a few times a year when he was in town. It seemed that his whole focus in the hobby was how cheaply he was able to get things. I think he would badger the sellers at train shows so much that they would eventually give him a good price just to get rid of him. It really became boring when he visited, with his constant "I got that engine for $20.00, marked at $40.00", etc.

BUT when HE offered stuff for sale there wasn't much dickering on his prices!

Have fun!

Bob Boudreau

[jsoderq]

You don't haggle at the grocery store or the pharmacy so what makes you think it is alright at the hobby shop?

[simon1966]

This is a curious issue. Personally, I have never "haggled" in a hobby shop. With the exception of my LHS when I went in to order all my track and turnouts. On the other hand, I always haggle at trainshows. I'm not sure why this is, other than there seems to be a convention in the US that bricks and mortar stores have fixed pricing. I travel a lot, and visit hobby shops all over the US when on business. 90% of the time, I will find something that is interesting to buy, but at full list. I never have asked for a discount and nearly always pass and don't buy the item. I don't know, would the store owner prefer to take some $ from me, or would he rather keep the item on the shelf for a higher margin sale later? I might start to ask the question and see what response I get. The problem is that many of us potential buyers are reasonably educated in the "street" pricing for items as established on e-bay and by the internet discounters. I personally appreciate the services provided by an LHS, but don't see why I should pay 20% over "street" price if I don't have to. After all, my hobby spending is very much a discretionary spend and I can spend my money where I want.

[davekelly]

I would love to find the discontinued Walthers tugboat at MSRP!

[dwRavenstar]

Once at a flea market I saw an older guy and a snippy woman in a "negotiation" over a pair of never worn, $60 a pair, shoes he had offered on his table. His asking price was five dollars and she was bound and determined to convince him that they weren't worth as much. She was getting her hackles up and he was looking like he was about to have a cerebral hemhorage (sp?) when I stuck my nose in, explaining that she obviously didn't understand that it was a two-for-one sale. Obviously the left shoe wasn't worth the five bucks until you considered that the right one was indeed free and the pair came with a 50/50 guarantee (fifty yards or fifty minutes, whichever the wearer could get to first).

The guy broke into an uncontrollable grin, the woman copped a knowing smirk and dropped the fin on the table and headed for her pick-up, shoes in hand, apparently wanting to get away before the "sale" ended.

There's an odd process that we go through when determining value in a buying (or selling) situation. I guess it's a question of supply, demand and satisfaction. When like minds meet the sale is completed but neither is stone cold required to bring any amount of compromise into the matter. Sometimes it just works better when they do.

Dave Wyland (dwRavenstar)

[IRONROOSTER]

I think this is a cultural/personal preference kinda of thing. Some folks love to haggle both sellers and buyers - antique stores seem to do this alot. Others hate to haggle. I dislike haggling. If I don't like the price, then I walk on. If I find it later at a price I like then I'll buy it. I'll shop at the discount places when they are available.

Probably half of my spending in the last 5 years has been at MSRP and half has been at a discount price - but no haggling. In S scale you usually have to buy it when you see it if you want to be sure of getting it.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

I'll haggle for hobby items, but usually pretty low-key - for example, if buying used items without price stickers on them I'll usually try a polite "how much for these three?" or similar question. The other technique I use is if asked to name a price, name a low one - the worst they can do is say "sorry, I can't sell it that cheap" and you might just get lucky. I won't spend ages trying to negotiate in order to knock a few pounds off the price - not worthwhile as usually if they've not responded well to your opening question (something like "Is that your best price for that?") they're not going to drop the asking price no matter how hard you negotiate. Not sure how it works over there, but a price tag in a store here is (legally speaking) an "invitation to tender" - you have the right to ask if they'll accept a lower price (and they have the right to refuse to do so - one of my LHS has a sticker behind the counter saying "sorry, we don't haggle").

Having said that, it's usually only worth haggling when buying hobby equipment and full-size vehicles - most other types of store have all their prices entered on a computer system and can't offer discounts. It took me ages to get used to the idea of being able to negotiate like this, now I almost expect it on certain items!

[Anonymous]

Back to the original proposition. This is a discontinued item, rare, or "hard to find" as the subject ot the thread indicates. I would assume this item isn't something that the buyer will find on the shelves in every other shop in town, on ebay or at the online discounters.

Kent, your impression of being grateful for the find is correct, in my opinion. You haven't been ripped off if you've found rare items and paid list price. Rare & hard to find items increase in value. It is only the concept of MSRP that keeps the costs of such items from rising in the shops.

As a buyer, I would recognize the fact that I was lucky to find the item. I don't haggle anywhere. If the price is too high for me, I may let the seller know and move on. Note, I said "too high for me." This doesn't mean he is asking too much, owes me a discount or should participate in "haggling."

As a seller of "discontinued items" (used & rare books) I won't haggle, though I have offered a discount to repeat buyers if there is some volume, but I don't generally entertain requests for discounts. Rare books may "gather dust" for years while the right buyer comes along, and unless a flood of the same edition comes on the market, it doesn't lose its value. No, I won't haggle over the price to sell it now and no, I wouldn't rather have $100 now than $200 in the future. I find such suggestions insulting.

I am patient and the right buyer for the book will come along eventually. If you have to haggle, then you aren't the right buyer & I wish you well in your search for discount rare items.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Muddy Creek
[As a seller of "discontinued items" (used & rare books) I won't haggle, though I have offered a discount to repeat buyers if there is some volume, but I don't generally entertain requests for discounts. Rare books may "gather dust" for years while the right buyer comes along, and unless a flood of the same edition comes on the market, it doesn't lose its value. Wayne

May I ask you a question re rare books? A few years ago on the RMR (rec.modelsrailroad) newsgroup someone pointed out that two model railroad books authored by Wayne Wesolowski - Scratch Building Structures, and Scratch Building Railroad Cars - were being offered at extremely high prices. I did a search through bookfinder.com, and sure enough one was listed for $325.00 and I think the other was around $250-275.

Since I have both of these books, I thought I'd offer them on eBay, with a reserve of $200.00. The bidding only got up to around $40.00 or so, and they did not sell. I tried to contact one of the book sellers with the high prices to ask what sort of price would they offer for the books, assuming quite a bit less than they were asking. I never got a reply and forgot about the whole thing.

My question is - who does buy such "rare" books? Where could I get a decent price for mine? Are the prices on their sites way out of line?

Thanks!

Bob Boudreau

[Anonymous]

Bob,

A lot of the prices that are asked online for "rare" books are driven artificially high. For instance, the Wesolowski book may be available through sellers on the train show circuit for perhaps $50. (Arbitrary value picked for example.) These sellers are in constant contact with a large concentration of potential customers for this book and have a good idea of the actual value of the book, that is the realistic price they can expect someone to buy it.. Usually with a bit more added to pad the profits or if they enjoy haggling.

Online book sellers (of which I am one) often will buy large quantities of books from individuals or estates. These lots usually contain a wide variety of books, many or most in areas of which the dealer has no expertise, especially with hard-to-find technical or non-fiction books. The dealer, having no idea that the same book is selling at the train show in town for $50.00, checks various online sources and finds none for sale online. Acting on this limited knowledge, the dealer arbitrarily assigns a high, wild guess value of $325 and sits back to wait. Since this isn't a time-sensitive venue, like eBay, he can wait and hope for a long time.

Then along comes Dealer #2 who finds a copy in an lot at an estate auction, goes online & finds the only available copy at $325 & since that is his only reference point, sets his price at $250 to undercut his competitor. Now the on-line "value " range of the book is between $250 & $325. Meanwhile, the book still is being offered at the train shows for a more realistic $50.

The online booksellers probably got their copies in a large lot of books for which they may have paid pennies or at most a dollar or so. They would never pay any significant amount for the Weslowski book unless they specialized in model RR books or knew they had a ready buyer for it. The online sellers that may have had their copy for sale at $325.00 for the past couple of years, likely wouldn't be interested in purchasing a second copy to park it along side the one that isn't selling.

Always best to offer it direct to model railroaders/ Some RR forums like the-gauge.com offer free buy & sell forums for members. If you know someone who is a train show vendor, or owns a busy hobby shop, perhaps you could offer a commission for selling it for you. That is where the largest concentration of potential customers lie. Ebay is always hit or miss. Offering it to a book seller for their outright purchase is almost always the least profitable.

Wayne

[jfugate]

Bob:

I likewise tried to sell some used books on ebay and had little luck. Then I did a scan of the used books section on ebay and noticed very few items had any bids. Finally, I did a completed items search on used books for some titles I was aware of and noticed most books ended with no bids.

The bottom line: while ebay is great for some kinds of things, for some strange reason it's not the place to sell used books.

My own theory is as long as the book is not a *rare book* on a subject that's timeless, old books are seen as land fill material for the most part. For non-fiction books, you can probably find a more recent book on the topic that's just as good or better written and illustrated and is up-to-date to boot.

[Anonymous]

I would love to swap stories of books I have bought and sold on eBay and elseware but to get back to the original discontinued 2 year old item... A retail operation has to turn over it's inventory to stay in business. Letting an item sit and gather dust (especially a bigger ticket item) and tie up capital is doing a disservice to the shop owner and the shops customers. The owner should have tried a little salesmanship. Move the item to a prominent location(sales counter), talk it up with customers("Have you seen this?"). If that didn't work, mark it down(it might not take much of a discount to move a nice item). When I sold tools I would ocassionally raffel off an item. (sell 50 or 100 tickets so the total covers the items price the draw a winner at random). When people offered to haggle sometimes I told them to ask again in a month if it was still there, sometimes I made a counter offer, often I grudgingly agreed to let them get the better of me this time(while I was doing a happy dance in my head to be rid of the thing).

Collectables are one thing. Manufactured good are another.

Now does anybody have a dusty old copy of Tom Graham's "Hike and the Aeroplane" clutering up their shelves? I would be happy to take it off your hands and I would even pay the shipping.