I need to design a passenger terminal.

[SpaceMouse]

At my club I am responisble for creating (or taking over actually) a passenger terminal. I don't want to have to ask the guys working on their sections to stop what they are doing and give me ideas which half the time I don't understand anyway.

Right now it consists of 8 parallel tracks on the end of a layout. On one side is a freight dock and on the end is the passneger terminal. What I need to work on is tying the passenger yard together with the terminal. Since this is "my" yard, my locos will be housed here and I want to tie them in with the terminal.

They are PRR all in Brunswich Green

BLI E7A
Proto 2K F2a/b consist
BLI M1A
Proto 2K ALCO S1

What would it look like between the tracks: Platforms, covers, etc. The general theme of the layou seems to be 40-60's mixed lines NYC, Conrail, B&O, etc.

Links to pictures of others' work would be great.

[ndbprr]

Sounds exactly like Cincinatti Union Terminal. I would do a google search both the web and images for the layout and pictures as well as history. Then I would do a terrserver search for aerial pictures and USGS maps that should add even more data. NYC, PRR, C&O, B&O, Southern, L&N and probably others used the station and it had its own CUT switching engines.

[Anonymous]

Two books that might be helpful that you may be able to get through your library system:

The Railroad Station by Carroll L. V. Meeks

Down At The Depot: American Railroad Stations from 1831 to 1920 by Edwin P. Alexander.
(A little early for your era but might still be helpful.)

Wayne

[leighant]

John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation has a top notch chapter on design of passenger terminal trackage. Really exlains how they work, why they are built the way they how, and (per your question) how they tie in to other trackage and facilities.

Down at the Depot has pictures of I would guess 100 passenger station BUILDINGS, concentrating on the buildings, with only peripheral coverage of the terminal trackage on a few of the stations. But it is great for the buildings. Don't let the time period of the title scare you off. Most of the major passenger terminals in the US were built before 1930.

I am in the process of designing a passenger terminal for my railroad...
http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/abt.jpg
http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/abu.jpg
http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/abv.jpg

[siberianmo]

Recommend you take a look at Kevin J. Holland's "Classic American Railroad Terminals." Lots of great photo's, etc., to provide not only inspiration, but perhaps bring back some memories.

[Anonymous]

Try doing Google Image searches. I did one using "La Salle Street Station" as my search term, and came up with interior and exterior views of the depot building, shots of the trainsheds and of tracks and equipment under them, diagrams of trackage, etc.

[Jetrock]

I know SpaceMouse has a copy if Track Planning for Realistic Operation knocking around--there is a good section on passenger terminals. If there is a nearby passenger terminal, go take a look at it...figure on a couple of tracks for passenger loading/unloading, a freight depot for REA deliveries and express freight, and a couple of storage tracks for offline passenger equipment.

The passenger tracks would have butterfly shelters. There would probably be some means for passengers to reach the tracks without having to cross over a lot of tracks--this could either be an underground subway with stairs leading up to each level, or a "skyway" bridge where passengers walk up some stairs and walk over the tracks, descending to their track.

An icehouse, to add ice to express reefers, wouldn't be out of line either.

[Paul3]

SpaceMouse, I have some questions for you:

1). Is this a through station or a stub terminal? If it's both, how many tracks go through and how many are stub?

2). What is the current track spacing?

3). How long is each track?

4). How is this connected with the mainline?

5). How much room do you have to work with?

6). This is HO, right?

Get back to me on these, and I'll do my best to help...

BTW, the best book, bar none, on the subject of designing passenger stations is "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by John A. Droege, a New Haven official. First released in 1917 and now Out of Print, if you should see one, it's worth getting as it has been described as THE definitive work on passenger terminal design.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Paul3

SpaceMouse, I have some questions for you:

1). Is this a through station or a stub terminal? If it's both, how many tracks go through and how many are stub?

It is stub if by that you mean that you can only come from one direction.

QUOTE: 2). What is the current track spacing?

About 3 1/2 to 4"

QUOTE: 3). How long is each track?

6' to 8' with the center being longest.

QUOTE: 4). How is this connected with the mainline?

The passenger terminal and the yard both funnel throuh one track about 40' then attach to the main line. IT is kind of screwy becasuse the only way to get a train into the yard is to back it that same distance.

QUOTE: 5). How much room do you have to work with?

I'm not sure how to answer that question. The tracks are layed. The passenger terminal and freight dock already exsist. There is a turnout leading to nowhere to the left of the layout, where I plan to put an two door engine house, and to the right is a turntable. I have to design the spaces between the tracks.

Theoretically, what I would like to do is make is so a train can head into the yard, runaround to the turntable, turn around and head back out of the passenger terminal (and therefore the same would be true of the yard.)

QUOTE: 6). This is HO, right?

Yes

QUOTE: Get back to me on these, and I'll do my best to help...

BTW, the best book, bar none, on the subject of designing passenger stations is "Passenger Terminals and Trains" by John A. Droege, a New Haven official. First released in 1917 and now Out of Print, if you should see one, it's worth getting as it has been described as THE definitive work on passenger terminal design.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

You need a wye track to help the engine to be able to "turn" into the yard from the main instead of dragging the entire train past the only switch that leads into the yard and then backing all that way down the track. You say there is 40 feet from the main line all the way to your yard/station? wow. There has to be room for a third track (Wye) so trains leaving can go either way and trains arriving can go from either direction.

Once that lead engine stops at your station at the end of a stub with the train behind it, it will need what is called a "ESCAPE TRACK"

This is nothing more than a switch positioned about 2 feet from the end of the stub so that the lead engine (s) can disconnect from the passenger train and back out of the hole. The local switcher then takes over the passenger train while the "Big" engine heads for drink and feed on coal/fuel

There is a Amtrack Station at Lorton VA that handles trains to Florida I believe that design may fit you well. I have no memory of where it may be at Kalmbach but one reason this article sticks in my mind is a effortless handling of multiple needs on a very long train (Sleepers, Express, Merchandies, AUTOMOBILES) I say autos because this is a Auto train to florida where people take thier cars to florida with them.

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: There is a turnout leading to nowhere to the left of the layout, where I plan to put an two door engine house, and to the right is a turntable. I have to design the spaces between the tracks.

Why not have a roundhouse-style enginehouse around the turntable, instead of a separate enginehouse? Or is there an engine servicing/storage facility somewhere else on the club's layout?

[METRO]

I've still got a few questions here that could help you figure out the character of the terminal and then how best to work with it:

1: What type of passenger operations will be here (commuter, long haul, short haul?)

2: Is there going to be a coachyard to base your rolling stock?

3: How large is the city this station serves?

4: What era are you modeling?

5: How many Trains a day do you expect to generate/recieve?

6: What prototype serves the station (or if freelanced what is the closest prototype to what you are modeling?)

~METRO

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

You need a wye track to help the engine to be able to "turn" into the yard from the main instead of dragging the entire train past the only switch that leads into the yard and then backing all that way down the track. You say there is 40 feet from the main line all the way to your yard/station? wow. There has to be room for a third track (Wye) so trains leaving can go either way and trains arriving can go from either direction.

Once that lead engine stops at your station at the end of a stub with the train behind it, it will need what is called a "ESCAPE TRACK"

This is nothing more than a switch positioned about 2 feet from the end of the stub so that the lead engine (s) can disconnect from the passenger train and back out of the hole. The local switcher then takes over the passenger train while the "Big" engine heads for drink and feed on coal/fuel

There is a Amtrack Station at Lorton VA that handles trains to Florida I believe that design may fit you well. I have no memory of where it may be at Kalmbach but one reason this article sticks in my mind is a effortless handling of multiple needs on a very long train (Sleepers, Express, Merchandies, AUTOMOBILES) I say autos because this is a Auto train to florida where people take thier cars to florida with them.

I came to that conclusion a couple of days ago.

Let me see if I can explain this layout. As far as I can tell there is no theme, or if it is, it is not-self evident. The location is Pennsylvania but the era and roadnames fluctuate with each member. I am among the earliest with my PRR transition period M1A, E7 F2a/b and S1. There are other M1a and a Big Boy. But there are modern Conrails, Amtracks, B&O, New York Central, etc.

I've never seen any yard work done, in fact, I've never seen any real running. I've made a complete circuit with my E7, but not with my M1A or F2 consist. I've done the most with the S1 but that had been running over turnouts and track testing the turnouts and electrical system. Since I've been there all we've done is work on track and landscape. There doesn't seem to be a ramrod for the project either.

But from the set up I can't see any real use for the yards except staging becasue of how isolated they are. There are a couple of smaller yards out on the track, but they don't have the capacity to handle trains if all the members want to run operations.

I think the passsenger terminal was an after thought--just like the two biggest yards must have been.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

QUOTE: There is a turnout leading to nowhere to the left of the layout, where I plan to put an two door engine house, and to the right is a turntable. I have to design the spaces between the tracks.

Why not have a roundhouse-style enginehouse around the turntable, instead of a separate enginehouse? Or is there an engine servicing/storage facility somewhere else on the club's layout?

There is a six-stall roundhouse off the turntable but full of freighters. There is another huge engine facility in the large yard, and several others around the track. Adding a two stall house on the passenger terminal won't be innapropriate.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO

I've still got a few questions here that could help you figure out the character of the terminal and then how best to work with it:

1: What type of passenger operations will be here (commuter, long haul, short haul?)

2: Is there going to be a coachyard to base your rolling stock?

3: How large is the city this station serves?

4: What era are you modeling?

5: How many Trains a day do you expect to generate/recieve?

6: What prototype serves the station (or if freelanced what is the closest prototype to what you are modeling?)

~METRO

These are all good questions and if I ask people at the club they are going to say, "It's you're doing it, you choose." See answers above for my best approximation.

1) If there is any indication from the layout--no one has talked at all about theme or operational plan--it is a series of short runs. There is a continuous loop but no "world connection"

2) I doubt it. Right now there are passenger trains stored on sidings, passing sidings, the passenger terminal. etc. Then again nothing is running.

3) I choose 100,000

4) 1930-2004

5) [:D][:D][:D]

6) The great Northeastern Conglomerate

[Paul3]

SpaceMouse wrote:

QUOTE: It is stub if by that you mean that you can only come from one direction.

Yep, that's stub. In other words, each track has a bumper at the end of it.

QUOTE: QUOTE: 2). What is the current track spacing?

About 3 1/2 to 4"

Hmmm... You are staggering these gaps, right? Each track should not be that far apart from every track. Think of it like this, where each vertical line is a track, and the asterisk is the platform:

*||*||*||*||* is what it should look for 8 tracks (and 5 platforms), not like this: *|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*

In between the tracks, the spacing should be small, about 1.75" to 2". In between the tracks where the platform is should be 3 1/2" to 4".

QUOTE: 6' to 8' with the center being longest.

That's not very long. Figure a pair of passenger engines (18"-24"), and that only leaves you with about 6 cars for your longest train. Anyway to make them longer? I would try to go for at least 10' if possible, 12' is even better.

QUOTE: The passenger terminal and the yard both funnel throuh one track about 40' then attach to the main line. IT is kind of screwy becasuse the only way to get a train into the yard is to back it that same distance.

Hmmm... Which yard are you talking about? The passenger coach yard, a freight yard, or the terminal yard itself?

QUOTE: I'm not sure how to answer that question. The tracks are layed. The passenger terminal and freight dock already exsist. There is a turnout leading to nowhere to the left of the layout, where I plan to put an two door engine house, and to the right is a turntable. I have to design the spaces between the tracks.

For starters, most engine facilities were all in one location. Usually, they would plop the diesel house on top of the old roundhouse site, or just use the roundhouse for diesels. Most diesel houses were built to replace roundhouses, not to co-exist with them.

Secondly, I asked how much room you have because there are some things you might want to do over. Nothing is forever, especially in model railroading. [:)] Also, it would help visualize where to put things like buildings, platforms, etc. I mean, if you're crammed into a corner that's 8' x 2', then suggesting a large REA building would be kind of foolish...

QUOTE: Theoretically, what I would like to do is make is so a train can head into the yard, runaround to the turntable, turn around and head back out of the passenger terminal (and therefore the same would be true of the yard.)

Not 100% realistic in most terminals I've seen. In most cases, the train would head in and terminate (and the road crew would get off). The yard switcher would then tie on to the rear, and pull the train back into the coach yard. The road power would be cut off and sent to the engine facility, and the train sorted out to the various tracks according to type in the coach yard. Then a new train would be assembled.

Now, most of us can't do that because we don't have coach yards, so what I do is after the train pulls in, I send in the yard switcher to pull the train out, leaving the road power behind. I switch the cars into order (baggage on front, coaches on rear, etc.) on another track. Then I pull out the road power, turn it on the table, then put it on the re-assembled train.

HighIron2003ar wrote:

QUOTE: Once that lead engine stops at your station at the end of a stub with the train behind it, it will need what is called a "ESCAPE TRACK"

Not nesscessarily. South Station and North Station in Boston never have had "escape tracks", and South Station was the busiest RR terminal in the USA before the new GCT was built. Escape tracks are far more likely to be found on model railroads than in real terminals.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************