Thickness of wire to use for replacing missing caboose railings

[crossthedog]

Picked up an old Roundhouse old-timer caboose "kit" at a swap meet. Looked like everything was there but it turns out that half of the deck railings were missing (along with the smoke jack). Each end has one of the railings in place, with holes for the other (missing) railing, and for ladder and brake wheel. But only the ladders and brake wheels were in the box. 

I figger I can probably bend some wire to make the railings, and I know you can buy piano wire of varying sizes, so I aim to go that route. But does anyone have a good guess at what gauge of piano wire this would be? I have no idea, and the materials don't specify. I even found some parts online from Grandt Line that look similar, but they don't mention the size of the wire either.

Clues? Suggestions?

Thanks,

-Matt

[maxman]

Suggestion?  Borrow a micrometer.

[tstage]

Better yet - buy a pair of calipers:

While I really like my 40-year old dial Starrett, you can pick up inexpensive dial or digital calipers for $20-$30.  A worthwhile investment - especially if you are going to do scratch-building or repair work.

I prefer dial calipers.  However, the digital calipers are handy for switching between English and metric units.  If you do decide on a dial, I would go with one with 0.100" per revolution increments - like the one pictured above.

Tom

["JaBear"]

I’m in the process of kit bashing two later Roundhouse caboose kits with the cast metal frame and cast on grabs etc. However, the ferrous metal railing beside the brake wheels is .022”.

 

Roundhouse Caboose by Bear, on Flickr

 

For model railroading purposes I bought a relativity cheap but accurate digital vernier caliper, mm, and inches, more useful than a micrometer, IMO. (For work I still use my 40 year old Mitutoyo micrometer and Mitutoyo 8” dial vernier caliper, I cringed at the expense at the time, but don’t regret paying for quality.)

Cheers, the Bear.

[crossthedog]

Before everyone gets too excited telling me what kind of measuring tools I should borrow or buy, maybe that energy could be better spent helping me understand how to read the one I already have. My dad left me this -- I guess it's a caliper, not a micrometer? -- but I don't know what the smallest ticks represent. In the photo, it's open to 2 numbered units on the shaft made up of 25 numbered units each around the handle. This looks like way more than two millimeters to me, but I'm not very metric, so the single ticks on the shaft I don't know what they are.

the ferrous metal railing beside the brake wheels is .022”.

Thank you Bear. I'm sure it's the same.

[PC101]

crossthedog

 it's a micrometer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look up how to use a micrometer on youtube. The pictures should be very helpful.

Do not store the mic. with the two surfaces (yellow arrows) touching.

Make sure first when those two surfaces do touch the tool reads '0'

[crossthedog]

Ok, I had another close look at the tool. I don't know why it seemed confusing to me the first time I looked at it a few years ago. Maybe having just lost my dad I was easily disoriented.

One full turn of the handle, twenty-five ticks from zero to zero, moves one tick on the shaft, and there are four ticks to each numbered unit on the shaft. The number .001 is engraved right on the tool, so I assume that's the smallest unit, which is one tick on the handle.

I took one of the rails off the caboose and, from all the way closed, I opened the caliper 22 handle-ticks before the rail finally fit in between -- almost a full turn around -- which is what I expected from Bear's comment. So I guess that the wire I want is 22 thousandths of an inch.

[PC101]

Yes, .022'' wire.

Sorry for the loss of your father.

["JaBear"]

crossthedog

Thank you Bear. I'm sure it's the same.

No worries. 

 

Depending on how much model kit bashing and or repair work you do, you’ve got a very handy tool there, with the bonus of the micrometer having sentimental value.

 

Once used to them, a micrometer, is easy to read, but to be fair and if I’m honest thinking back, I did start to fabricate an aircraft skin from 0.020” Alclad sheet instead of the required 0.025”. My “Chiefie” gave me a very animated talking to!!!

  

I’ve since found guys who are used to measuring with Imperial measurements using fractions have to get their head around to thinking in 10ths, 100s, and 1000s. I originally thought that young ffolkes who have been bought up using the Metric System would have grasped that you use 10ths etc. but no!! (I am surprised that the Bear can be so patient, though it’s worth it if the young person shows promise.)

 

PC101s YouTube tutorial idea is a good one, as long as it doesn’t waffle on!

Have Fun,

Cheers, the Bear.

[hon30critter]

Hi Matt,

I'm going to throw a couple of wrenches in your works just to be a nuisance.

First, 0.022" is much bigger than a scale HO handrail would be. They would look more realistic using 0.0125" wire. If you install the handrails using gel CA (apply from the inside of the shell), the CA will fill the gap between the smaller wire and the 0.022" holes.

Second, I would suggest using phosphor bronze (pb) wire from Tichy Train Group instead of piano wire. Phosphor bronze wire is much easier to bend but it is still solid enough to withstand handling. Also, if you make the bend in the wrong place, phosphor bronze wire will allow you to straighten the wire and re-bend it in the right place whereas piano wire may break. Pb wire is also easy to solder whereas piano wire is not.

Here are Tichy's ph wire listings:

https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_wire/Default.aspx

By now, you are fully aware that I have a bad habit of offering more information than is needed. I'm about to continue that habit by making some suggestions about how to improve your caboose handrails.

The end platform handrails that come with the kit are a bit simplistic when compared to most prototypes. That gives you the opportunity to make them much more realistic by making your own handrails. I kitbashed a fleet of Athearn cabooses a few years ago and this is what I did with the railings. Note that I did these before I was aware of the proper size for the railing diameters so I used0.020" pb wire.[D)

 

I could have done a much better job. For example, the ladders and the brake wheels are way too thick. Live and learn!

I did add working marker lights and an interior light that only shines out of one window suggesting that is where the conductor's desk is located. I also added a keep alive system for the lights. If you want information on any of that, please ask.

Cheers!!

Dave

 

[tstage]

crossthedog

efore everyone gets too excited telling me what kind of measuring tools I should borrow or buy, maybe that energy could be better spent helping me understand how to read the one I already have. My dad left me this -- I guess it's a caliper, not a micrometer? -- but I don't know what the smallest ticks represent. In the photo, it's open to 2 numbered units on the shaft made up of 25 numbered units each around the handle. This looks like way more than two millimeters to me, but I'm not very metric, so the single ticks on the shaft I don't know what they are.

crossthedog,

Since you didn't divulge in your original post that you owned a micrometer, it was logical to presume you didn't have any way of measuring the grab irons on your caboose; hence the recommendations.  And what you have pictured is a micrometer.  What a special rememberance of your dad!

And I'm glad you were able to figure out how to use it.  Since it has 0.001" stamped on the side then the increments are indeed English and each rotation is 25-mil (0.025").

I will add that, while a handy tool, your micrometer will be limited to a total of 1" of travel.  And it cannot measure inside diameters.  If you think you might be measuring things > than 1" and IDs of tubing in the future, a caliper would still be a good investiment.

FWIW,

Tom

[crossthedog]

tstage

Since you didn't divulge in your original post that you owned a micrometer, it was logical to presume you didn't have any way of measuring the grab irons on your caboose; hence the recommendations. And what you have pictured is a micrometer.

Tom, I do apologize. I sometimes get kind of snarky in my posts and I always regret it. What I should have done was express gratitude (which I actually do feel) for all of the INSTANT, FREE, DISINTERESTED, EXPERIENCE-BASED and GENERALLY RELIABLE counsel and ideas I get here time and time again. Thanks for the gentle nudge back to sanity.

hon30critter

By now, you are fully aware that I have a bad habit of offering more information than is needed. I'm about to continue that habit

Dave, yes I DO know that about you, and I don't mind the extra chapters AT ALL. In fact, I'm very glad you lasso'd me before I went and bought a bunch of metal that will surely break on me. I'll look for the brass. Your caboose track looks great and I like the idea of marker lights and the solitary lamp-light of the conductor's desk.

-Matt

[crossthedog]

PC101

Sorry for the loss of your father.

Thanks, PC. I don't like to dwell in regret, but I could have learned a lot from him about electrical stuff, and just life in general, if I had been willing to slow down and pay attention. He was a methodical, patient craftsman. I'm always in a hurry. But to this day, when something I do turns out right on the layout, I say "good job, Willard!" as if he and I are working shoulder to shoulder.

And thanks for the warning about keeping the micrometer surfaces apart during storage. Sounds like some kind of voodoo, but maybe damage from pressure changes, or corrosion? Magnetic buildup until a disastrous Dr. Who-style polarity reversal throwing us back in time to before nickel plated track?

-Matt

[crossthedog]

@Dave. Bronze. Did I say brass? I meant bronze.

[Neptune48]

As I skimmed through this thread, observing most folks here were getting wrapped around the axle over the measuring tool, I was focused on your use of piano wire. That material is very hard; it will damage diagonal cutters and is very hard to bend. I would recommend using brass rod, which is more malleable and easy to cut and bend. I'm doing a similiar thing for scratch-built N Scale cabooses.

Best of luck.

—Bruce

[maxman]

crossthedog

I sometimes get kind of snarky in my posts

Who?  You?  Gee, who would have thought that?

Anyway, regarding calipers, yes, I have a digital one of those.  Don't really care for it.  One edge is marked in millimeters, and the other in tenths of an inch.

Since it is used infrequently, the battery always manages to pass on to the big repository in the sky just whan I need to use the thing.  If I were to purchase one again, I'd opt for the non-digital (analog?) version.  The digital version is sort of useless w/o the battery.

I use the micrometer much more frequently.  Not because I need to measure something with great accuracy, but because I either have left a number of small diameter drill bits laying around without putting them away in the drill index and need to know what goes where, or because I managed to knock the drill index over and all the bits tried to escape.

[hon30critter]

Neptune48

I would recommend using brass rod, which is more malleable and easy to cut and bend.

Hi Bruce,

Have you used phosphor bronze wire? It is quite a bit stiffer than plain brass but is is still easy to bend and solder. I have found that brass wire bends too easily so that you have to be very careful when handling a model with brass hand rails. With phosphor bronze, you can be pretty clumsey (which I usually am) but nothing gets bent.

Cheers!!

Dave

[crossthedog]

maxman

crossthedog

I sometimes get kind of snarky in my posts

Who? You? Gee, who would have thought that?

Seriously, max? Am I that bad? Now I'm going to develop a complex. I need to rethink how I move through the world. Thought I'd done all that interior work already.

-Matt

[maxman]

crossthedog

Seriously, max? Am I that bad?

I can't answer that question.  It hadn't occurred to me until you mentioned it. 

[BigDaddy]

Crossthedog For some reason I thought you were one of younger members.  Us old guys are crotchety.

As was mentioned, your micrometer is marked in inches.  I have both calipers and a micrometer.  If you are confused, measure something like a 1/4" drill bit and you can figure out the divisions.

I moved recently and I am still looking for things I know I moved.   I will see if I can find my bronze phosphor wire that I used for these railings.  As has been said, you don't want to use piano wire.

[BigDaddy]

Link to Tichy group phosphor bronze wire.

[BigDaddy]

Found my wire  0.015"

[doctorwayne]

crossthedog

I figger I can probably bend some wire to make the railings, and I know you can buy piano wire of varying sizes, so I aim to go that route. But does anyone have a good guess at what gauge of piano wire this would be?

I agree with Dave's suggestion about using Tichy's phosphor-bronze wire for making handrails and ladders, and have a good supply of all sizes that they offer, along with pretty-well every size of strip styrene that's offered by Evergreen, and their variety of sheet styrene thicknesses, too.

While piano wire is very useful for a variety of items, I'd suggest phosphor-bronze wire for handrails.
It's available (from Tichy) in a variety of diameters, from .008", .010", .0125"", .015", .020", .025", .032", and .040".

It's easy to bend and if you've mis-done the bend, it can be easily straightened, and then re-bent properly, without fatiguing, as would often occur with steel piano wire.
One of it's other valuable properties is that it's easy to solder. 
I used strip brass for ladder stiles, then used phosphor-bronze wire for the ladder rungs, soldering everything together on a homemade jig, then used a cut-off disc to remove the excess wire and any excessive solder.

Here's an old Athearn bay-window caboose that I re-worked somewhat...

 

...with scratchbuilt ladders and railings (the platform gate does work, too).

Because I've sold (or given away) a bunch of my cabooses, I'll be scratch-building at least a dozen replacements, and will likely buy a few of the bay-window ones, too.

Wayne

[crossthedog]

BigDaddy

I will see if I can find my bronze phosphor wire that I used for these railings. As has been said, you don't want to use piano wire.

Henry, thanks heaps. Sounds like you're offering me some of your wire (I'll be embarassed if it turns out you're not), but in looking at links to Tichy it seems the phosphor bronze wire is fairly accessible and affordable, so I'd rather you hold on to all of yours just in case there's any chance you'll be rigging up another caboose someday. I love your detail work. Those rails look very realistically sized.

BigDaddy

For some reason I thought you were one of younger members.

I'm flattered, but that's just my immaturity showing through.

@Wayne, that's a mighty attractive bay window caboose. That gate is slick. It puzzles me, though. Why is there a gate there? Is that for ease of uncoupling without the conductor having to climb down to the ground?

hon30critter

With phosphor bronze, you can be pretty clumsey (which I usually am) but nothing gets bent.

This sounds like a good idea for me. I'm clumsy too.

-Matt

[crossthedog]

Neptune48

on your use of piano wire. That material is very hard; it will damage diagonal cutters and is very hard to bend.

Bruce, thanks, I consider myself warned away from piano wire. But your comment reminds me of a time I was working on a little ranch in Ohio where they used "high tensile" wire to pasture the horses. It had some give to it and it had no barbs, so there was theoretically less damage to fence and horse in case of encounters. Welp, one day one of the horses I in my charge was pawing around the edge of the field for tastier grass and got the wire into a little crack in her hoof. I saw her absently trying to lift her hoof away and it wouldn't come. She was focused on eating, but I saw that as soon as she figured out she was well and truly stuck, she'd start pulling and freak out. Then something would give, and I feared it would be her leg. I reached for the Leatherman tool in my pocket and ran over as fast as my cowboy-booted feet could go, and I dove in to cut the wire. It took all my strength and my tool handles folded in on themselves before the 1/8th inch wire finally snapped apart. Horse was fine. I got a new one chewed for rashly cutting the wire and got assigned fence-fixin' dooty. The good part was that the folks at REI handed me a new replacement tool without even asking questions. 

-Matt

[richhotrain]

crossthedog

 

maxman

crossthedog

I sometimes get kind of snarky in my posts

Who? You? Gee, who would have thought that? 

Seriously, max? Am I that bad? Now I'm going to develop a complex. I need to rethink how I move through the world. Thought I'd done all that interior work already. 

-Matt 

No, you don't come across as snarky. That's why as I read through this thread I was so surprised at that little outburst. But, as I read on, you took your medicine quite well. 

Rich

[doctorwayne]

crossthedog

@Wayne, that's a mighty attractive bay window caboose. That gate is slick. It puzzles me, though. Why is there a gate there? Is that for ease of uncoupling without the conductor having to climb down to the ground?

Thanks for your kind comment, Matt.

As for the gate, it's there to allow a brakeman access  from the caboose to the end ladder on the freight car, to which the caboose is coupled. 

My layout is set in the late '30s, so it wouldn't be unusual for the engineer to use  "whistle-talk" to get a brakeman setting brakes (or retainers) on cars near the back-end of the train.

Wayne

[hon30critter]

Hi again Matt,

If you compare doctorwayne's caboose handrails with mine, you can clearly see how much better the 0.0125" phosphor bronze wire that he used looks vs my 0.020" pb wire. Also, it looks like wayne used an aftermarket brake wheel (Kaydee maybe) whereas I used the original wheels that came with the kits. I wish I had known better when I did the caboose fleet.

Cheers!!

Dave

[BigDaddy]

It wasn't really an offer but let me see how much I have.  I was looking for it to give you a size, 0.015"

 

[crossthedog]

BigDaddy

It wasn't really an offer but let me see how much I have. I was looking for it to give you a size, 0.015"

Ha! That's comedy, right there. Well, don't you fret, Henry. I can get it from Tichy. In fact, my LHS guy may have it and I'm going down there next week because my little brother will be in town and we've been wanting to do a hobby shop outing together for years.

-Matt