Hi Everyone, I am having some odd issues I need help resolving.
All of my KATO double decker Metra and Superliner cars are fine.
But as soon as this same loco pulls Amfleet Viewliner VI cars they either derail or uncouple.
My Kato MILW Road Hiawatha set is fine as is my C&NW 400 set pulled by their respective diesel units.
I cannot understand why those Amfleet viewliners are so fickle.
Also, despite the above mentioned Hiawatha set being fine, my NYC and BN passenger Observation cars always decouple.
Is there something about those 2 Observation Cars either in their design or weight that makes them fickle too?
Yet, the Hiawatha and CNW 400 set, the Metras and the Superliners are 100% perfect on teh same track.
Any help is appreciated.
Derailing and uncoupling - - two separate issues although they may be related.
Let's start with uncoupling. Are they always the same couplers and do they always uncouple at the same spot(s)? What type of couplers? Are all of the couplers on all of your cars the same type of couplers? Do you have a Kadee coupler height gauge to check conformity of the couplers with one another? Any humps and valleys in your track work?
As for derailments, always in the same spots? Straight track or curved track or both? What is the radius of your curves? Are your passenger cars close coupled? Have you checked wheel alignment with NMRA gauge?
We need more info.
Rich
Alton Junction
HO or N scale?
Is there any correlation between car length and either derailing or uncoupling?
How easily do the trucks swing side to side? And how far do they swing?
Are there specific sections of track or directions of travel over them where the problems occur?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
N Scale, all Kato Couplers, cars and tracks, always in the same spots.
One sot is a surve the other straight.
Cant't figure out why the one type has issues in those same 2 spots while the others does not.
first thought. Uneven track at those spots and something with coupler alignment on those cars, either the pockets or a lot of play in the pocket. The combination of which allows those cars to uncouple.
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Try coupling together a good car and a bad one, and slowly rolling the cars by hand over the bad spots in both directions. Watch for unexpected lifts or drops of the axles. That will show you where the trackwork doesn't work with the car. Also watch the alignment of the couplers.
richhotrain Let's start with uncoupling. Are they always the same couplers and do they always uncouple at the same spot(s)? What type of couplers? Are all of the couplers on all of your cars the same type of couplers? Do you have a Kadee coupler height gauge to check conformity of the couplers with one another? Any humps and valleys in your track work?
Do you have a Kadee coupler height gauge to check conformity of the couplers with one another? To avoid uncouplings, the couplers in question should be in vertical alignment with the Kadee coupler height gauge.
Any humps and valleys in your track work? Check those two spots and give them a close up eye to see if one or another coupler is rising or falling, losing its connection.
As for derailments, you indicate that they always occur in the same two spots, one on straight track and one on a curve.
Derailments on straight track are usually caused farther back, coming out of a curve or riding over a turnout. Go back and watch to see if any wheels are off the track coming out of a curve or after crossing a turnout. Another possibility is a stretch of straigh track that is out of gauge.
Derailments on curved track are usually caused by uneven rails, one higher or lower than the other, or kinks in the rails. Do you solder rail joiners on curved track. If not, you should to avoid kinks.
Keep us posted on what you find out.
Also check your trucks on a flat table or piece of glass. If you can get a piece of paper under one of the wheels while the other ones are flat on the surface then your truck is twisted and that wheel will ride up and derail your car. They can be twisted and you can get all the wheels level. We just had to do that on club members SD40 and now it runs fine.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
The key to finding a derailment or unintended uncoupling problem is to identify the spot(s) where these problems take place and then look back to the previous curve or turnout. In doing so, you need to get close up and eyeball the problem wheels/couplers. Most often, the problem has already occurred farther back on the track before it manifests itself at the spot that you think the derailment or unintended uncoupling is taking place.
Seems the curve is too sharp for those Amfleet cars, I put in a broader curve and its fine now.
Also, replaced the other curve with a broader one and its fine now.
I read on "OneTrueScales" video he had the same issue with the Kato curves that are elevated on one side. He put flat ones in to resolve.
Thanks everyone for your help on this!
I will do some more testing.
Congratulations on finding and fixing the problem. And, thanks for reporting back to us.
I also found that after I installed KATO light kits onmy Kato passenger cars , of I did not get it back together 100%, the cars would have issues by being slightly tilted.
I did not think the one corner of the car which I could not get 100% aligned would matter. It did!
chipset35 I also found that after I installed KATO light kits onmy Kato passenger cars , of I did not get it back together 100%, the cars would have issues by being slightly tilted. I did not think the one corner of the car which I could not get 100% aligned would matter. It did!
Unfortunately, somwe of these Kato passenger cars refuse to align and therefore if I force it they derail or uncouple because they are tilted ever so slightly. If I do not install the light kit they work fine but without lights.
Now for some reason, both my NYC Limited (2022) and Burlington Northern Zephr (from early 2000s) passenger observation cars after working fine, now decide to keep uncoupling even on pristine track.
Also, despite my beloved BLI P5 Electric boxcab now running since its warranty repair, it is now derailing on pristine track. I give up on this unit as well and retired it for now.
So frustrated, I retired the Burlington and NYC sets and diesels for the time being.
Thus, I am concentrating on my sets that work flawlessly everytime and running trains instead of troubleshooting day after day.:
1) Kato C&NW 400 Diesel and Passenger set (5 stars)
2) Kato Metra diesel and double decker Metra cars (5 stars)
3) Kato Amtrak diesel and double decker cars (5 stars)
4) Kato MILW Hiawatha Olympian Diesel and single level passenger cars (5 stars)
Noooo, don't give up now. In fact, don't ever give up. Derailments and unintended uncouplings are a lot easier to resolve than electrical problems or decoder issues. The key is to find out where the problem is initially happening, not necessarily where the derailment and unintended uncoupling manifests itself on your layout.
I am going to repost my earlier comments and encourage you to do some further detective work.
Here goes:
richhotrain The key to finding a derailment or unintended uncoupling problem is to identify the spot(s) where these problems take place and then look back to the previous curve or turnout. In doing so, you need to get close up and eyeball the problem wheels/couplers. Most often, the problem has already occurred farther back on the track before it manifests itself at the spot that you think the derailment or unintended uncoupling is taking place.
I agree, don't give up. In some cases, it took me years to figure out and solve a problem. For passenger cars, sometimes a bit of extra weight will solve derailment issues. To test it, just put a small weight on top of the car and try it out.
Simon
You both are correct.
Thus, for the time being I will still use both the Burlingtons and NYC sets, but will put them into a staging area as their destination instead of the actual NYC part of the layout.
Not sure what to do with that darn BLI.
chipset35 Also, despite my beloved BLI P5 Electric boxcab now running since its warranty repair, it is now derailing on pristine track.
Also, despite my beloved BLI P5 Electric boxcab now running since its warranty repair, it is now derailing on pristine track.
chipset35 Not sure what to do with that darn BLI.
I don't own one of these BLIs, but this is what I would check: When putting the loco on a flat surface, all wheels should be touching the surface.
I would make sure that the front and back trucks swivel freely on all directions.
Finally, I would make sure my track is level laterally - if not, your wheels may lift on one side.
richhotrainI don't own one of those boxcabs but, surprisingly, BLI claims that it will run on 18 inch radius curved
It's actually 9" radius - remember, the OP said he's in N scale.
For the OP: I'd say if the cars in question ran fine without lighting, I'd do without lighting and run the cars 'dark'. I'd rather be able to run the cars rather than having them sitting on a siding but lit up.
Also, I'd check the trucks. Sometimes problems with derailments are something as simple as the trucks being too tightly screwed in so they don't have enough 'play' in them.
Maybe check that the diaphragms aren't touching each other causing the derailment. On some of my passenger cars I replaced the couplers on one end of the cars with Kadee long-shank couplers to provide a little more room between cars, and that solved the derailment issues caused by the diaphragms getting hung up on each other.
My bad on the scale. But, still, I would eyeball the wheelsets up close to see where the first signs of derailments are initially occurring.
I determined the Amfleet cars had one in the 3 car set that had its shell misaligned after I removed the light kit. I fixed it and now all the Amfleets run fine.
Replaced 2 curves with a wider diameter and that fixed all uncoulpling and derailments.
Only outstanding issue now is the BLI derails on one particular curve.
I replace that curve and see if that removes this last issue.
Lessons Learned:
Check alignment of shells and frames.
Replace tight curves with looser ones.
Replace or fix poor track alignments.
Fix dips and/or peaks in tracks due to poor leveling of surface
chipset35N Scale, all Kato Couplers, cars and tracks, always in the same spots.
If that means you're using Kato Unitrack, it should mean you're avoiding the problem that can happen with flextrack where the track has a slight 'kink' - just enough to tighten the radius of the curve a few inches. So what you think is a 11" curve is really a 9.75" curve for a short section. Equipment limited to 11" radius will derail, while other stuff won't.
Plus 'recommended minimum radius' isn't always reliable in my experience. Some things need a larger curve than the advertised. Sometimes a car or engine might take a curve of the minimum radius by themselves, but have trouble when coupled to other cars or engines.
Here is an update.
My NYC 20th Century Limited is acting up again.
Nothing has helped...wider curves, fixing elevations, kinks, out of alignment shells. So frustrated as its still the only tempermental passenger cars I own.
chipset35Here is an update. My NYC 20th Century Limited is acting up again. Nothing has helped...wider curves, fixing elevations, kinks, out of alignment shells. So frustrated as its still the only tempermental passenger cars I own.
I'm going to suggest something. Most model railroaders who read this will throw up their hands and yell at the screen that I'm an idiot. Of course, I'll agree.
I have a Kato N set of the UP City of Los Angeles. This train runs on my layout as a unit. Two of the cars (and only those two) either derail or uncouple at various places on the layout.
I applied a tiny (tiny!) amount of rubber cement to the inside of the couplers and coupled the cars together. The rubber cement added enough flexible connecting power to keep the cars coupled, and also stopped the derailing.
I know, it sounds like a stupid idea, but it has allowed me to run that train without going insane.
York1 John
Have you tried my suggestion to get up close and eyeball where the problem first occurs, perhaps somewhere farther back on the track? That is the key to solving derailments and unintended uncouplings.
Wider curves, fixing elevations, kinks, out of alignment shells are all possible solutions, but it is all guesswork if you don't know where the problem first manifests itself.
Hi Rich, I sure did.
The worst part is that it happened last night in an area thats been fine and untouched for weeks now.
John, that idea is so simple and effective its genius!
I will try it!