I don't know why Hattons think they have any business trying to pigeon-hole American Railroad and Model Rail Railroad Eras. They are not big inventory holders of USA Model Railroad products!
As has been mentioned in this thread, UK & European Railways systems are much smaller and more regulated and controlled (by Politicians) They are easy to define by era.
My own research into N. American R/R's soon made me realise that, 'anything goes'. They are much more diverse and thus far more appealing to model, for that very reason. My research enabled me to define RR eras for myself. I do not need a UK Model shop to do that for me.
I found Hattons advert typically British and more concerned about making money out of modeller's and their estates. It was only this thread that made me take a full read of it. Up until now I have mostly ignored it. Paul
"It's the South Shore Line, Jim - but not as we know it".
Lazers I don't know why Hattons think they have any business trying to pigeon-hole American Railroad and Model Rail Railroad Eras. They are not big inventory holders of USA Model Railroad products! As has been mentioned in this thread, UK & European Railways systems are much smaller and more regulated and controlled (by Politicians) They are easy to define by era. My own research into N. American R/R's soon made me realise that, 'anything goes'. They are much more diverse and thus far more appealing to model, for that very reason. My research enabled me to define RR eras for myself. I do not need a UK Model shop to do that for me. I found Hattons advert typically British and more concerned about making money out of modeller's and their estates. It was only this thread that made me take a full read of it. Up until now I have mostly ignored it. Paul
The only model I have purchased from Hattons was an HO model of a streamlined 4-4-4T tank locomotive of the South Manchurian Railways, operating in Japanese occupied Northern China in the late 1930s.
But a consistent description of time periods of US Railroads would be a help to those starting out as modellers.
As was mentioned earlier, the big mergers of Burlington Northern and Penn Central and the formation of Amtrak occurred in the late 1960s to early 1970s, and formed a suitable break point to be regarded as separating eras.
While it is somewhat simpler in Europe even there eras are only approximate.
But are European railways smaller? Does SNCF run fewer trains than UP for example? Do they have more or less track than UP?
Peter
M636C But are European railways smaller? Does SNCF run fewer trains than UP for example? Do they have more or less track than UP?
There's something of an apples to oranges comparison, but European railroads are invariably smaller than their nominal American and Canadian peers. Germany's entire network is about the same size (route miles) as CSX and that's the single largest in Europe. The US and EU have roughly the same total mileage.
SNCF is about 65% of UP in terms of track miles, almost all of it is passenger service and 80% of that is just servicing Paris. A good freight year for SNCF is about ten percent of UP's ton-miles. They do different jobs.
I went to the Hatton website. It looks like the eras they suggested are just a way for them to categorize their used items for sale into groups.
I doubt they would ever do the research to see about ACI labels, Wheel Dots, Repaints, etc are accurate for what they are doing, selling used model railroad products.
The system they presented will probably meet their needs.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190The system they presented will probably meet their needs.
I think it will meet the needs of a whole lot of modelers who lack the knowledge of details like what brake system was banned when (or whatever detail you want to focus on), but who would like a little more help when choosing whether or not to buy a particular piece of rolling stock. Arguing that such a system would not be able to cover all of the variations is like demanding that every rivet be counted. That is not what Hattons is suggesting. They are suggesting a system that will give less knowledgable buyers a general idea of whether or not the piece will fit on their layout. I think that that is a great idea! The more knowledgable modelers obviously can apply their higher standards without anyones help so they are free to ignore the general era suggestions.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter SeeYou190 The system they presented will probably meet their needs. I think it will meet the needs of a whole lot of modelers who lack the knowledge of details like what brake system was banned when (or whatever detail you want to focus on), but who would like a little more help when choosing whether or not to buy a particular piece of rolling stock. Arguing that such a system would not be able to cover all of the variations is like demanding that every rivet be counted. That is not what Hattons is suggesting. They are suggesting a system that will give less knowledgable buyers a general idea of whether or not the piece will fit on their layout. I think that that is a great idea! The more knowledgable modelers obviously can apply their higher standards without anyones help so they are free to ignore the general era suggestions. Dave
SeeYou190 The system they presented will probably meet their needs.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying their breakdown does not even get close to being effective at that goal.
Every 10 years, starting on the fives, no need to start any earlier than 1855, that would be a reasonably effective system.
With simply numbers they could list every era that applies to an item.
20, 25 and 35 year spans simply don't cut it.
Sheldon
A short digression. He means these:
http://www.chinesemodeltrains.com/encyclopedia_db3.html
My introduction to these small bidirectional streamline were the 2-4-2s used on the LBE; Lima modeled these, I believe in the '80s:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBAPGz3HNWs
The Hungarians had 4-4-4s with this kind of streamlining but I don't know if they were modeled.
The Germans worked on high-speed streamlined steam as an alternative to fast motor trains starting in the early '30s, the same general idea as what became the Hiawatha here. They developed a lightweight train (the Henschel-Wegmann) and high-speed 4-6-4T and 4-6-6T bidirectional locomotives to pull it, as here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IRtIzooxMdc
One of these was rebuilt into the now-famous DR 18 201:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGMaryscERU
Don't mean to hijack the discussion; I just thought some of you are likely unaware of any of these things and will find them interesting.
Reading the Hattons Advertisement.
"Shouldn't America have it's own Era System?" - To me, this is like the type of manipulation similar to that exerted by Television and Newspaper 'Journalists'.
"We welcome assistance in developing this resource - please contact etc." - We don't care what anyone might actually think because we have already decided we are going to force this Project thru, whatever.
"Your Modelling Database" - a FREE service. - There's no such thing as a free lunch and reading down the list of things 'we' can include (how kind) strikes as a form of Data-collecting.
Dealing in used Model Railroad equipment is big business in the UK and there is a lot of money made out of it. It is a very, very competetive market.
Conclusion (so far) The adertisement is patronising and scheming. Paul
While I understand the impetus to do something like this, the methodology is suspect IMHO. I always thought that the highest concentration of modelers is the steam-to-diesel transition. However the proposed breakdown "broad brushes" all earlier eras in 50-60 year swaths, then micro-dices the "modern" eras into 1-decade swatches based on a particular EMD or GE engine type. How about something like dawn of railroading to 1880s-90s, turn of the century to 1930s, 1940s-60s, 70s-90s, 2000s i.e. 5-ish eras. It is no more anachronistic to run the "wrong" EMD or GE unit on a modern layout than to wrong the "wrong" 50' boxcar on a 1950s layout. There is no justification to divide modern eras into 1-decade swaths while completely broad-brushing the earlier eras (when if anything the technology was evolving faster and was more diverse in earlier times).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying their breakdown does not even get close to being effective at that goal. Every 10 years, starting on the fives, no need to start any earlier than 1855, that would be a reasonably effective system. With simply numbers they could list every era that applies to an item. 20, 25 and 35 year spans simply don't cut it. Sheldon
Or better yet just put on the advertising or box that said model (type) operated "from the 1960s to 1990s" which is far more descriptive and doesn't need some new magic decoder ring to figure it out some new made up system.
The classification system is over complicating a solution to a minor issue.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acr ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying their breakdown does not even get close to being effective at that goal. Every 10 years, starting on the fives, no need to start any earlier than 1855, that would be a reasonably effective system. With simply numbers they could list every era that applies to an item. 20, 25 and 35 year spans simply don't cut it. Sheldon Or better yet just put on the advertising or box that said model (type) operated "from the 1960s to 1990s" which is far more descriptive and doesn't need some new magic decoder ring to figure it out some new made up system. The classification system is over complicating a solution to a minor issue.
I have already suggested that and indicated sone manufacturers already do that in theirvproduct info.
cv_acrOr better yet just put on the advertising or box that said model (type) operated "from the 1960s to 1990s" which is far more descriptive and doesn't need some new magic decoder ring to figure it out some new made up system.
Is there currently any manufacturer putting the simple statement Operated 19XX through 19XX on their packaging?
PennsyLou However the proposed breakdown "broad brushes" all earlier eras in 50-60 year swaths, then micro-dices the "modern" eras into 1-decade swatches based on a particular EMD or GE engine type.
However the proposed breakdown "broad brushes" all earlier eras in 50-60 year swaths, then micro-dices the "modern" eras into 1-decade swatches based on a particular EMD or GE engine type.
There's a certain pragmatic angle to it. In practice, eras are more helpful to the beginner and intermediate hobbyist. If you're starting out, you're pretty unlikely to be jumping right into the scratchbuilt and garage suppliers that anything pre-1920 is going to require. I know there's some (not many, but some) Civil War era guys out there, but I bet you could count the guys with 1835 B&O layouts on your thumbs. And probably have a thumb left over.
Those "particular type" era markers are valid, though. There's a point where certain locomotives effectively took over. The 70ACes and GEVOs have ruled the roost for more than a decade because of emissions requirements.
hon30critter SeeYou190 This one has been a stickler for me. I have seen some references that said Scotchlight and conspicuity items (stripes, dashes, diamonds, or dots) were used on some cars in the 1950s. Other references have said they did not exist until the 1960s. Hi Kevin, I'm sorry if my following comment will offend you, but I think that getting concerned about the presence or absense of individual data reporting marks detracts from the basic discussion. I'm going to go out onto a limb here by suggesting that for the majority of average modelers that sort of fine detail is not very important. Rather, they would like to know that, for example, does a billboard reefer fit on their late 50s layout, or does an outside braced 40' boxcar belong there too. Just my worth, Cheers!! Dave
SeeYou190 This one has been a stickler for me. I have seen some references that said Scotchlight and conspicuity items (stripes, dashes, diamonds, or dots) were used on some cars in the 1950s. Other references have said they did not exist until the 1960s.
Hi Kevin,
I'm sorry if my following comment will offend you, but I think that getting concerned about the presence or absense of individual data reporting marks detracts from the basic discussion. I'm going to go out onto a limb here by suggesting that for the majority of average modelers that sort of fine detail is not very important. Rather, they would like to know that, for example, does a billboard reefer fit on their late 50s layout, or does an outside braced 40' boxcar belong there too.
Just my worth,
Cheers!!
Not really, because a car can have a service life of 40-50 years, and certain paint schemes or markings only applied in the 1970s+ to a car built in 1950 does change the applicable "era".
Paint schemes markings set the era just as much as the car design.
For example, back to conspicuity stripes as an example - while various reflective markings (mostly smaller dots and diamonds) have been used for decades, those modern yellow stripes are strictly a 2004-05+ thing. That really switches up the applicable "era" for a 1975 car, in a 1995 repaint scheme, with 2005 stripes...
If I'm not mistaken, some of the European eras are loosely based on paint schemes as well, since there were a lot of nationalized systems, so the eras align with "British Rail X scheme", "British Rail Y scheme", "post BR privatization" etc. When you're only dealing with a single national railway, this provides some pretty clear goal posts.
That doesn't work so cleanly when there's no nationalized railway in north America. (You might count CN in Canada, but it was still one of two major railways, with many smaller railways, and full interchange with the hundreds of railways comprising the US system, all merging, rebranding, and changing paint schemes on their own individual time lines...)
SeeYou190 cv_acr Or better yet just put on the advertising or box that said model (type) operated "from the 1960s to 1990s" which is far more descriptive and doesn't need some new magic decoder ring to figure it out some new made up system. Is there currently any manufacturer putting the simple statement Operated 19XX through 19XX on their packaging? -Kevin
cv_acr Or better yet just put on the advertising or box that said model (type) operated "from the 1960s to 1990s" which is far more descriptive and doesn't need some new magic decoder ring to figure it out some new made up system.
It's not common, but it *could* be done, if the box artwork is sort specific to the car/model type...
The old Life-Like Proto 1000/2000 car boxes were actually really nice for providing a bit of a historical description about the model's prototype.
Some manufacturers are good at providing a lot of detail in their product descriptions on their web sites, indicating when a particular model was built and operated, but that wouldn't be seen on the box, and doesn't always get indicated in detail to each individual paint scheme (e.g. this model was built in the 1940s, lasted in service to the early 1980s, but this particular paint scheme is a 1960s repaint)...
Another thing that good manfacturers can do quite easily, with very little artwork customization or effort, is include a paint scheme's date in the product description on the end label.
e.g.
"Canadian National 1948 As Delivered"
"Canadian National 1961+ Repaint"
etc.
cv_acr The classification system is over complicating a solution to a minor issue. If I'm not mistaken, some of the European eras are loosely based on paint schemes as well, since there were a lot of nationalized systems, so the eras align with "British Rail X scheme", "British Rail Y scheme", "post BR privatization" etc. When you're only dealing with a single national railway, this provides some pretty clear goal posts. That doesn't work so cleanly when there's no nationalized railway in north America. (You might count CN in Canada, but it was still one of two major railways, with many smaller railways, and full interchange with the hundreds of railways comprising the US system, all merging, rebranding, and changing paint schemes on their own individual time lines...)
Hi Chris, I have modelled British Railways and now model a USA Railroad. I agree with your comments. My own research (which any USA MRR Newbie like me, is quite capable of making - on their own initiative) led me to similar conclusions.
Like I wrote earlier, Hattons are not a regular UK stockist of N. American R/R gear, so just why they feel they should call the shots is unknown. Their assumption on this matter is purely self-appointed. Paul
Photo linking seems broken, but here's some examples
http://vanderheide.ca/files/011-resize.JPG
http://vanderheide.ca/files/012-resize.JPG
http://vanderheide.ca/files/013-resize.JPG
I agree that the eras suggested aren't that great - I would think 1945-60 as "postwar" would be good, 1961-71 as another, and then 1971 to whenever. With all the mergers (and Amtrak) that happened around 1970, splitting there would make sense.
However, I still think a simple little box in the corner of a freight car's box saying "ERA II" is simpler for the manufacturer than "APPROPRIATE FOR 1948-66" would be. When you're trying to organize things like this, you have to accept that you have to sometimes lump things into groups that might not be perfect, but are at least a first step in selecting the right era.
LazersLike I wrote earlier, Hattons are not a regular UK stockist of N. American R/R gear, so just why they feel they should call the shots is unknown.
Hatton's ad in the newest Model Railroader is a two-page spread all about how they buy model train collections. It looks like they are intent on building up stock and entering the North American marketplace.
The online inventory management system is similar to a service offered by Brass Trains Dot Com. If I die, my wife can contact Brass Trains Dot Com, they can pull up my inventory, and buy my collection instantly.
If Hatton's system is similar, it could make things much easier for widows. Of course, it still does not deal with the layout or myriad of small items and supplies.
My Brass Trains Dot Com inventory also established the current market value of my brass collection for insurance. Maybe Hatton's will have this feature as well.
I am pretty sure the "ERA" thing they propose is simply for marketing organization on their sales website/platform and not intended to become any sort of marketing convention for other sellers.
There is a story on the Hattons Web site about how periodically the owner (Christine Hatton) and staff tour part of the United States answering questions ... and appraising/making offers on collections. The proposed system is likely to be a way to simplify listing these in a way that makes sense to the part of their clientele used to going by an 'era' system or wanting concordance with a European era.
I notice that nowhere on their Web site is the slightest discussion of either their proposed era scheme or any discussion, although the features are present in their site code to do both easily.
micktropolis As for Hattons, as a yank who is currently having a love affair with OO gauge steam (and who doesn't pay attention to the eras in this instance of British motive power - full disclosure) they are some of the friendliest people to deal with in the hobby as far as shops go in my experience, either in the US or the UK. Don't judge a book by its cover.
As for Hattons, as a yank who is currently having a love affair with OO gauge steam (and who doesn't pay attention to the eras in this instance of British motive power - full disclosure) they are some of the friendliest people to deal with in the hobby as far as shops go in my experience, either in the US or the UK. Don't judge a book by its cover.
I thought it was spelled "Canuck", eh?
Starting in 1967 when I was a kid our family took our summer vacation (holiday to you) in Canada - not a far trip from here in Minnesota. One nice thing was I found out that UK books on railroads and model railways were very cheap, so I'd come back with several books each year. The UK OO and O modelers - due to their limited space - put a great deal of effort into detail and weathering, and not trying to cram too much into a layout. That has certainly influenced me and my layout, especially Martyn Welch's "Art of Weathering" book.
Billboard cars were characterized by advertising on the sides. Billboard reefers were a subset of those. They were banned in 1934. The last ice-bunker reefer was built in 1957, and mechanical refrigeration started in 1958. The last ice-bunker reefer went out of service in 1971.
I've got a small collection of Greenway beer reefers, a few meat reefers and a few railroad-named reefers. They're all ice-bunker. I've got an ice house with platforms, so the whole ice-bunker reefer thing goes well with my layout that's got a packing plant and a brewery. I don't worry about the billboard car ban, so if the ice to mechanical transition doesn't bounce me out of era, I'll run these cars anytime.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I think USA modeling in general is set in its "era" more by scenery, automobiles and so forth on a layout. Diesels and many freight cars remained in daily service way way longer than they typicaly do in the UK or Europe. Just look at how many years the venerable SD40-2 has been plying the mainline and regional lines, or even GP9's in various rebuilt forms. Freight cars are more aged out by a finite life span. And the changes take years to happen, like the switch over from friction bearing trucks to roller. It didnt happen overnight do to the amount of cars in circulation. It more happened as older cars were scrapped/wrecked or aged out of the system, and new roller bearing trucked cars were built. Many first generation diesels still serve today in industrial and shortline settings, just in different paint schemes or patched out paint schemes. So there are way to many variables to set tighter "eras" to USA railroading in my opinion. We as modelers set the era or year by way more than just the engines or freight cars. The whole layout in general sets our year or era. It might be a specific scene on the layout that happened in a certian year, or the typical cars and trucks on your model highways and parking lots. It could even come down to the style of dress of your model figures. Just depends on how far you want to take the detailing.
For example, on the large club layout that used to exhist where I live, at one time the era was "cut off" at 1964. So early diesels, with just a few steamers hanging on, with F units, GP and SD units along with Alco RS and Century series diesels. Same for freight cars, the bilt date had to be that year or prior. One could tighten that up even further to no steam operational, or modeling the last year or two before ditch lights became the norm(a modeling pain in the arse for engines not equipted). Just my thoughts. Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I tried the "era" and "road name" games but found them less than interesting. Living on the shores of Lake Erie my original railroad hauled iron ore from the docks south to the steel mills and coal back to the docks for ship movement up the lakes. Didn't last long. Heretic that I am I now have no trouble running a 1920s vintage NYC Hudson in front of a string of PRR passenger cars (OMG!) on the track next to an 2020 vintage Amtrak P42 leading a mix of intercity and long distance cars. And my freights are almost always capped with cabooses without regard to which railroad owns them. PRR cabin car behind a NS diesel? Why not?
Don't misunderstand me, I absolutely admire the detail and effort in the "purity" layouts I see at train shows and in the magazines. My enjoyment is running trains, not modeling them (if that makes any sense). I'll get to roadbed under the track after I get the trackage finalized -- maybe.
-- Chuck
I try to model the late 1930's but things sometimes get blurred. I go by feel on a lot of stuff. Wartime outside braced stuff look very much like from the 30's or before even though they were built later. It is amazing what was built and when. A S1 and S4 is an example, the S4 has a different truck as the most notable change but that truck was available in the 1930's.
Chuck SMy enjoyment is running trains, not modeling them (if that makes any sense).
Yes it makes sense. It is good that you know what makes you happy and are not expending effort trying to satisfy someone else's idea of what a train layout should be.
My desire to lock my layout into a single point in time would not work for 99% or more of others, and I do not suggest it is the right thing to do.
Have fun!
rrebellIt is amazing what was built and when. A S1 and S4 is an example, the S4 has a different truck as the most notable change but that truck was available in the 1930's.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/b1/a9/96/d34cc6ee4dfa3e/US2137074.pdf
If I recall correctly, it was after AAR adopted this as a standard that Alco could go to GSC and get them 'cost-effectively'. I've had people claim that Blunts were reasonably good-riding, but not sure I believe it... and there is the observation that these trucks on the locomotives UP used as helpers were rough-riding enough that their braking was impaired when running light downgrade at 'reasonable' road speed to clear traffic...