Wow, it looks like I have way too much free time.
Apologies for the rant-like nature of the post.
I think we're off topic now.
Anyways, BLI P3 has some issues, so either deal with it or dont buy it.
Obviously BLI is to blame for the issues, but I personally also believe anyone about to drop $900 on an engine should be doing some research on what theyre getting themselves into before purchasing.
a keep alive, or decoder/motor replacement should do the trick.
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
Trainman440 Lol Sheldon I've been intentionally holding down my desire to reply to your comments. But now that youve directly quoted me I guess I must do so now. There are so many points Id like to address, but I feel it would be a waste of my time and yours to rehatch old discussions. The simple fact is, I get it, there are people who dont like the complexities of DCC, and find DC perfectly suitable. And there's obviously nothing wrong with that, I completely respect that. But just because you dislike DCC doesnt mean DCC isnt a valuable asset in part of a model. But I have to think too much work is being put into trying to out scoop the competition, and not enough work is going into having a solid reliable product. I think BLI values QC just as much as the next, but theyve made a blunder...just like Bachmann did when they used to use cheap white nylon as axle gears. Sh!t happens, and I respect BLI for holding their customer service and offering repairs and free replacement (parts) for their troubles. Just like I feel Broadway has missed out by completely turning its back on modelers not interested in sound, or modelers who might prefer to install the decoder of their choice. BLI has its own reasons to force their own decoders in their engines. Financially, it makes perfect sense for them to do so. I know it makes those who dont prefer their decoders angry for having to pay more (or simply not buy them), but honestly I commend BLI for creating their own decoders. It increases their profits in the long run, and I will always commend any manufacturer who decides to dive into different markets. However, any manufacturer who's trying new things will bound to have failure. BLI doesnt specialize in decoders, and so obviously theyve made a mistake. Im sure they are more than well aware of their fault. I dont think people like me or you complaining is helping anyone. Sort of like how their first model the J1e had issues with the mechanisms, and they offered upgrades to those who wanted a newer version. I think from a design standpoint, their models (not decoders) are just as good as Bachmanns. This is clearly opinionated, but I find BLI models to be more detailed. For example, a common model I know you like to compare is their USRA 2-8-2s. While Bachmann's has some prototype specific detail, such as the raised/lowered headlight, and various trailing trucks and tenders, BLI models are more detailed. In closer inspection, Bachmann's 2-8-2 has far more molded on piping, smooth(non-textured) running boards, simplified, crude details, etc. They have stamped metal driving rods, no bearings on the wheels, and wiping pickup. BLI's 2-8-2 has no prototype specific detail. They resemble the as built versions of each USRA 2-8-2. They have superior detail, more separatly applied parts, thicker driving rods with depth, walkway tread, etc. They got copper bearings on the wheels, a split chassis for bearing pickup. Yes, they lack prototype specific detail, but they overall have far more detail. I have no clue where Im going with this, but I am saying that there are very good reasons to get a BLI model. If you're looking for value, or a good candidate for freelancing or kitbashing, then Bachmann's models are great. If you're looking for a more refined model(ironic how they've had more QC issues, but you gotta take the good with the bad), with better overall detail, and you happen to model the big, "cliche" railroads (like me!), then BLI models work great. Their stuff is expensive, that's why I buy nearly all of mine from the used market. They really hold their value and their engines will last a long long time. If you love comparing prices, and value means a lot to you, like Sams Trains on youtube, then I understand why you see no value in getting a BLI model. Money is tight for me too, so I get my stuff on Ebay. I've gotten over 8 "baldwin 2-8-0"s by Bachmann for around $50 each. Ive owned 2-10-0s, USRA mountains, and even a berk. They are fine models. But they cant replace my BLI I1sas, or ATSF 2-10-2s. I model the PRR and ATSF, and Bachmann simply dont make any engines with those prototypes (except the K4, which Ive owned 3). As a "cliche" pennsy modeler, I feel blessed to have a manufacturer sell models which satisfy my detail and operating needs. Yes, theyre expensive, but it makes my job a lot easier. Without BLI, only the K4s is purchasable in plastic. Everything else (A5, B6, G5, C1, H9, H10, E6, I1, M1, L1, J1, etc) all had to be brass. I love my brass engines and love an engine I have to put work into to bring to my standards, but being able to buy some of that in RTR form is a relief. I think a good mix of RTR and custom brass is a good mix. That's why BLI has my money. ----------------------- I guess what Im getting at is, Bachmann models are great, and they obviously have a place in the market, however it doesn't mean therefore that no one should buy a BLI model. There are reasons to buy models from each manufacturer. You can compare all the models you want, but until Bachmann makes the same exact engines BLI does, and better AND for less, I'll be sticking to BLI for my PRR and ATSF needs. PS The only two non-diesel locos that both Bachmann and BLI have made that Im aware of is the GG1 and K4s. Both of which BLI's are farrrr superior. PPS I agree that BLI models are expensive, I dont think anyone's denying they arent. But supply and demand laws dictate that BLI has more than enough customers to which they can charge a pretty penny for their (clearly desireable based on their sales) models.
Lol Sheldon I've been intentionally holding down my desire to reply to your comments. But now that youve directly quoted me I guess I must do so now.
There are so many points Id like to address, but I feel it would be a waste of my time and yours to rehatch old discussions.
The simple fact is, I get it, there are people who dont like the complexities of DCC, and find DC perfectly suitable. And there's obviously nothing wrong with that, I completely respect that. But just because you dislike DCC doesnt mean DCC isnt a valuable asset in part of a model.
But I have to think too much work is being put into trying to out scoop the competition, and not enough work is going into having a solid reliable product.
I think BLI values QC just as much as the next, but theyve made a blunder...just like Bachmann did when they used to use cheap white nylon as axle gears. Sh!t happens, and I respect BLI for holding their customer service and offering repairs and free replacement (parts) for their troubles.
Just like I feel Broadway has missed out by completely turning its back on modelers not interested in sound, or modelers who might prefer to install the decoder of their choice.
BLI has its own reasons to force their own decoders in their engines. Financially, it makes perfect sense for them to do so. I know it makes those who dont prefer their decoders angry for having to pay more (or simply not buy them), but honestly I commend BLI for creating their own decoders. It increases their profits in the long run, and I will always commend any manufacturer who decides to dive into different markets.
However, any manufacturer who's trying new things will bound to have failure. BLI doesnt specialize in decoders, and so obviously theyve made a mistake. Im sure they are more than well aware of their fault. I dont think people like me or you complaining is helping anyone. Sort of like how their first model the J1e had issues with the mechanisms, and they offered upgrades to those who wanted a newer version.
I think from a design standpoint, their models (not decoders) are just as good as Bachmanns. This is clearly opinionated, but I find BLI models to be more detailed.
For example, a common model I know you like to compare is their USRA 2-8-2s. While Bachmann's has some prototype specific detail, such as the raised/lowered headlight, and various trailing trucks and tenders, BLI models are more detailed. In closer inspection, Bachmann's 2-8-2 has far more molded on piping, smooth(non-textured) running boards, simplified, crude details, etc. They have stamped metal driving rods, no bearings on the wheels, and wiping pickup. BLI's 2-8-2 has no prototype specific detail. They resemble the as built versions of each USRA 2-8-2. They have superior detail, more separatly applied parts, thicker driving rods with depth, walkway tread, etc. They got copper bearings on the wheels, a split chassis for bearing pickup. Yes, they lack prototype specific detail, but they overall have far more detail.
I have no clue where Im going with this, but I am saying that there are very good reasons to get a BLI model. If you're looking for value, or a good candidate for freelancing or kitbashing, then Bachmann's models are great. If you're looking for a more refined model(ironic how they've had more QC issues, but you gotta take the good with the bad), with better overall detail, and you happen to model the big, "cliche" railroads (like me!), then BLI models work great.
Their stuff is expensive, that's why I buy nearly all of mine from the used market. They really hold their value and their engines will last a long long time. If you love comparing prices, and value means a lot to you, like Sams Trains on youtube, then I understand why you see no value in getting a BLI model. Money is tight for me too, so I get my stuff on Ebay. I've gotten over 8 "baldwin 2-8-0"s by Bachmann for around $50 each. Ive owned 2-10-0s, USRA mountains, and even a berk. They are fine models. But they cant replace my BLI I1sas, or ATSF 2-10-2s.
I model the PRR and ATSF, and Bachmann simply dont make any engines with those prototypes (except the K4, which Ive owned 3).
As a "cliche" pennsy modeler, I feel blessed to have a manufacturer sell models which satisfy my detail and operating needs. Yes, theyre expensive, but it makes my job a lot easier. Without BLI, only the K4s is purchasable in plastic. Everything else (A5, B6, G5, C1, H9, H10, E6, I1, M1, L1, J1, etc) all had to be brass. I love my brass engines and love an engine I have to put work into to bring to my standards, but being able to buy some of that in RTR form is a relief. I think a good mix of RTR and custom brass is a good mix. That's why BLI has my money.
-----------------------
I guess what Im getting at is, Bachmann models are great, and they obviously have a place in the market, however it doesn't mean therefore that no one should buy a BLI model. There are reasons to buy models from each manufacturer. You can compare all the models you want, but until Bachmann makes the same exact engines BLI does, and better AND for less, I'll be sticking to BLI for my PRR and ATSF needs.
PS The only two non-diesel locos that both Bachmann and BLI have made that Im aware of is the GG1 and K4s. Both of which BLI's are farrrr superior.
PPS I agree that BLI models are expensive, I dont think anyone's denying they arent. But supply and demand laws dictate that BLI has more than enough customers to which they can charge a pretty penny for their (clearly desireable based on their sales) models.
I can't realy say I disagree with any of that, EXCEPT, you misunderstand my view, or feelings about DCC.
Dislike is not the right word. I have many, many hours running trains with DCC, just not on my own layout, its ok. And I very much understand its importance to the hobby today.
It simply does not suit my personal needs for my layout. And since I am not interested in sound, it would add very little to my operations, at considerable extra expense. 140 locos I already have, times the price of any decent non sound decoder just for starters. Locos I am happy with and have purchased at a dollar cost average of around $100 each.
Diminishing returns - paying 50% more for 10% more features. I'm not a diminshing returns buyer of any kind of product.
Particularly if those features are not all that important to you.
I have two BLI heavy Mikes and a BLI heavy Pacific, so I am more than aware of how they stack up to the Bachmann USRA light models, which up this point I have examined but not purchased. I am considering them, but actually have very little "need" for them. But I can buy non DCC/sound versions of the Bachmann Mike that would suit my use for $160.00, and a B&O Pacific that is a pretty good P5, and might make an easy conversion to a P6, for $220. Then I would have another decoder or three for sale......
I have also kit bashed those three BLI engines with Delta trailing trucks and Bachmann long haul tenders, so they can "fit in" to the ACR fleet.
I would submit to you that a correct trailing truck or headlight location on a locomotive is a more important feature than oversized texture on a running board, especially when viewed as part of an operating layout rather than examined as a static piece up close. But that's my "big picture" modeling view.
Want to buy a never really used decoder or two?
I bought two BLI/PCM "stealth" READING T1's when they first came out. No issues with them worth mentioning, nice locos - no decoders.....
My other two Broadway locos are N&W 2-6-6-4's, also now with Bachmann tenders (the big tender from the C&O 2-8-4) and no decoders. Also nice locos. But I have to agree with Kevin, my Bachmann B&O EM1 is nicer.
My favorite Bachmann locos are products that are now long out of production, and they were much better detailed than the current offerings. My USRA Heavy Mountains, USRA Light 2-10-2's, and the 2-6-6-2's are exceptional models.
And BLI diesels, at least the ones in my era that I have seen up close, really leave me cold in terms of detail.
My Genesis, Intermountain, and Proto stuff is much better.
But, to be fair, I'm not all over the map with my interests. I don't pay any attention to modern railroading, I pay little attention to western roads, I have narrow little blinders for the Mid Atlantic in 1954, September of 1954 in my half real, half fictional view of the world.
The newest prototype model I own, or have ever owned, are two EMD SD9's fresh from LaGrange.....
I worked in this business years ago, I wish all these companies well, I just wonder sometimes what they think about?
And I don't buy much "used", or "already been played with" as I like to call it. I do buy stuff that is pretty clearly "new old stock".
And, I still say, BLI or Bachmann, or anyone, you have to take each model on its own merrits without reguard for brand.
In my case, there is little reason for me to buy an ever more expensive BLI model just to remove the ever more expensive decoder and sound equipment, since dual mode decoders will not work with my Aristo Train Engineer throttles.
But Bachmann, Rapido, Athearn, and a long list of others will still sell me DC locos, or sell me locos that are easily backwards converted.
But I do think there is a growing devide between people like me who see these models as things to be weathered, adapted, kit bashed, custom painted, and if necessary "tuned up", and those who see them as "jewelry" they expect to like the finest autombiles perfect in every way - yet few of them are.
And by the way, I do think mechanically BLI locos are easily as good, and maybe on a case by case basis, a little better than Bachmann. But all my Bachmann choices, which does not include EVERY Bachmann product, have proven to be more than good enough - so again - diminishing returns.
I have more Bachmann USRA Heavy Mountains than I have Broadway locos total......
Sheldon
It simply does not suit my personal needs for my layout.
Pretty much sums up the argument doesnt it?
I find DCC to be vastly useful albeit a bit outdated. DCC (and sound/smoke for that matter) is all personal preference. I respect that you like the simplicity of DC. I'll admit at times I want to switch to just plain DC, but being first introduced to this hobby with the wonders of sound, I cant quite live without it.
I forgot to mention that yes, many will value prototype specific detail on those USRA 2-8-2s more than the quality of the details themselves. But my counter to that is, I can easily modify the headlight to be raised. Im willing to customize my locos if I find it necessary. In fact, I find BLI's(and Bachmann's for that matter) headlight castings to be so oversized to the point where Im seriously considering replacing them with brass castings. The molded on piping would be much harder to bring up to my standard than replacing the headlight with a bracket, and new casting. Again, that's personal preference. Some will like one, others will like the latter.
And yes, I agree with you (and I think I have before) that I wish BLI would release DCC ready models. However, financially, they have little incentive to do so. I dont see them changing this so Ive learned to just deal with it.
Besides the decoder, their steam/electric models otherwise are fine in my opinon.
Oh yea, BLI's diesels are garbage in terms of detail. Only recently in their F3/F7s did they finally seem to bother with prototype specific detail.
I buy used as I enjoy repairing models so I can 1. learn the innerworkings of each model by each brand 2. a sucessful restoration always gives me a good feeling, seeing a model running that you know youve put a few hours of work into and 3. saves money.
I think if you own a model, (just like owning a house) you should have the ability to disassemble/repair said model incase something goes south...or have the money to export that job to someone else. Tbh, I have little respect for modelers who buy expensive RTR engines yet have no clue how to fix a broken wire, reset a decoder, or clean the carpet hairs stuck in the pickups. Oh well, guess that just means more "damaged" engines for me to buy!
Trainman440 It simply does not suit my personal needs for my layout. Pretty much sums up the argument doesnt it? I find DCC to be vastly useful albeit a bit outdated. DCC (and sound/smoke for that matter) is all personal preference. I respect that you like the simplicity of DC. I'll admit at times I want to switch to just plain DC, but being first introduced to this hobby with the wonders of sound, I cant quite live without it. I forgot to mention that yes, many will value prototype specific detail on those USRA 2-8-2s more than the quality of the details themselves. But my counter to that is, I can easily modify the headlight to be raised. Im willing to customize my locos if I find it necessary. In fact, I find BLI's(and Bachmann's for that matter) headlight castings to be so oversized to the point where Im seriously considering replacing them with brass castings. The molded on piping would be much harder to bring up to my standard than replacing the headlight with a bracket, and new casting. Again, that's personal preference. Some will like one, others will like the latter. And yes, I agree with you (and I think I have before) that I wish BLI would release DCC ready models. However, financially, they have little incentive to do so. I dont see them changing this so Ive learned to just deal with it. Besides the decoder, their steam/electric models otherwise are fine in my opinon. Oh yea, BLI's diesels are garbage in terms of detail. Only recently in their F3/F7s did they finally seem to bother with prototype specific detail. I buy used as I enjoy repairing models so I can 1. learn the innerworkings of each model by each brand 2. a sucessful restoration always gives me a good feeling, seeing a model running that you know youve put a few hours of work into and 3. saves money. I think if you own a model, (just like owning a house) you should have the ability to disassemble/repair said model incase something goes south...or have the money to export that job to someone else. Tbh, I have little respect for modelers who buy expensive RTR engines yet have no clue how to fix a broken wire, reset a decoder, or clean the carpet hairs stuck in the pickups. Oh well, guess that just means more "damaged" engines for me to buy! Charles
Actually you and I are more alike than different. I started working in a hobby shop at age 14 (1971), in less than a year I was the "repair man", LIONEL, HO, everything.
Today I restore old houses for a living, design houses and remodels, am skilled in most of the construction trades. I am also a skilled automotive mechanic having restored and rebuilt a number of cars from the ground up - did the first one at age 19.
The DC system I use is far from simple, but the complexity is outside the locomotive, yet hidden from the user, because the primary goals are:
Signaling/detection
CTC
Easy user interface
If I hand you an Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless throttle on my layout, you only need to understand a few simple things - the "FASTER" button, the "SLOWER" button, the left or "WEST" button, the right or "EAST" button, and the "EMERGENCY" stop button.
And if the dispatcher is on duty, you don't have to push any other buttons, or throw any other switches, you simply obey the signals and run the train.
And the dispatchers job is not hard, he just throws a few turnouts for you and pushes a couple of buttons to give you green signals as you progress around the mainline.
AND, if you run a red signal - just like the "Cat in the Hat" - nothing bad is going to happen - your train will just stop.
And yet 10 operators can move their trains around various parts of the layout all at the same time - kinda like DCC - except no cornfield meets.......
And all of this happens without any computers......
Lighted maps and control panels around the layout show you where you are and where other trains are when trains are out of sight. It's as easy as DCC.....or easier?
Even if the there is no dispatcher, you can easily learn the few buttons to push on the local tower panels to guide yourself around the layout as you walk around with your train - just like throwing turnouts as you walk around with your train using DCC.
It is all done with detection circuits, relays and push buttons......
And back to models for one minute, clearly from the photos I have posted, I am not shy about any kind of modifications, but if I can start out closer, I'm all in.
Sheldon, that is probably your best description yet of your Aristo Craft Train Engineer operating system. Once your new layout is completed, you ought to take some videos of the layout in operation. I am ready to switch from DCC to ACTE!
Rich
Alton Junction
This thread reminds me of why I started the Liberating Purge thread.
Hunting down problems to spend my time fiddling with them, with inconsistent success, is no longer an enjoyable part of the hobby. No matter how "perfect" said equipment is for my "needs".
Sell or trash the worrisome albatross. Change my needs. Start having fun again.
- Douglas
richhotrain Sheldon, that is probably your best description yet of your Aristo Craft Train Engineer operating system. Once your new layout is completed, you ought to take some videos of the layout in operation. I am ready to switch from DCC to ACTE! Rich
Thank you Rich. It is hard to describe how it all works. It is not simple to build, it is simple to use.
One of the secrets is the pushbuttons rather than toggle switches, which allow turnouts and cab assignments to be controlled from multiple locations and the lighted buttons act as indicators rather than having separate lights.
While it does consist of "standard" circuits, how they interconnect is unique to each track plan.
And while it can support very complex prototype signaling, I choose to use a "simplified" signal system that looks very prototypical, but skips over some signal indications that are not really helpful in a model setting, even on a layout my size.
This also makes it easier for operators who my not be overly knowledgeable of the prototype.
Nearly all my signals are control points, or absolute signals.
I made my comments about BLI not just to pick on them, but to suggest that they could be even better, which this hobby needs.
It would be curious to see the rsults of the 'psper test' - slipping s sheet of paper under one side of the loco and tender at a time to verify it's actually picking up power from everywhere it should. No way should a large loco need a keep alive device. My T1's don't, and they were made by BLI (under the PCM name since they have ESU decoders). But one of them did have a poorly inserted wire in one of the wiring sockets, causing that pin to push out the back of the connector instead of seat over the pin on the PCB. As a result, in was picking up from both sides of the loco but only one side of the tender.
Might be a good idea to check the tender wiring to make sure all the conenctions are actually connected - this was pretty easy to spot as you could see the metal crimped on socket sticking above the palstic of the connector shell.
At least they are using a 3 wire system like ESU and Lenz, so there is some control over it and it doesn't just run forever, and can be bypassed in programming. But really - a 2-10-4 with pickups in both the loco and the tender - with a pair of 6 or 8 wheel trucks on the tender - should NEVER EVER need a keep alive device - if the pickups are all working and it stall, you need to fix your track. If the track is good and it stall, the pickup system needs a lot of help. The pickup area on a beast like that is bigger than even a #8 turnout frog, so even unpowered frogs should give it no problem.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Doughless This thread reminds me of why I started the Liberating Purge thread. Hunting down problems to spend my time fiddling with them, with inconsistent success, is no longer an enjoyable part of the hobby. No matter how "perfect" said equipment is for my "needs". Sell or trash the worrisome albatross. Change my needs. Start having fun again.
I took a different path.
In the 80's, I almost became a rivet counter. I stopped having fun, so I carefully examined my goals and interests in the hobby. Keep in mind the beginnings of sound and command control were already happening, so those factors were considered.
And they were reconsidered when DCC came along.
But the availability of new products and new technologies has not changed my goals in this hobby.
I carefully considered DCC, I carefully considered onboard sound, I examined how high end RTR might impact my modeling. I switched from hand layed track to commercial track when track improved.
But I did not run out willy nilly and buy DCC or a fleet of expensive locos with DCC and sound.
I was satisfied with my modeling choices before these products, I am still satisfied with my modeling choices.
After careful consideration, I have embraced some changes, and rejected others.
So I have never had to purge anything, my approach to the hobby has only changed slightly as a result of better or different products.
I have embraced higher quality RTR, but by quality I mean suitable operational and appearance, not necessarily requiring higher detail than I was happy with before.
So yes, in many ways I see Broadway as past the point of diminishing returns, especially since they will not sell me a DC locomotive.
For me signaling and CTC is more important, by a long shot, than sound or command control.
And Im the guy who buys all your junk! :D
I enjoy troubleshooting engines, even if its a problem I cant fix (such as a cracked gear with no replacements). It helps me understand the engineering and design behind each model, and (somewhat) helps me further my abilities in diagnosing and repair.
I am in no means an expert, but I enjoy seeing all the various ways manufacturers have managed to cram so much technology in such a small model.
I see what you are all saying. I am in DCC now but used to be DC with Aristocraft. I have bought a vast majority of my stuff second hand till I started buying recently. I see only five diferences for DCC from DC. DCC seams to run better, proubly from the high constant current, you can consist, sounds are easily controlled, things go wacky when a short occurs and separate control numbers. The sound is what won me over. As far as in house decoders, even Bachmann decided that was a bad idea, they made a deal with Soundtrax for simple decoders and are starting to move into more advanced decoders. Their basic decoders take away most of the problems that kept people away from DCC. They do basic controls and if their is a short they start out where they left off. Also they don't mention a keep alive but I see no interuptions in sound when it hits spots that would intrerupt sound. Sure they have their issues but overall they seem just as reliable as Atlas and if you buy heavily discounted, very cheap. Funny thing is an MTH got me into DCC but I don't know if I would buy one of their engines. All manufactures go though issues and hopefully BLI can fix theirs and who knows, the new owners of MTH might put out something amazing, I bought some of their freight cars that were up to my standards, so who knows.
rrebell,
And the funny thing is, my dislike of onboard sound is what convinced me the other features of DCC were not worth the cost or work for my kind of layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat kind of psycholgy accepts having to return $700 locomotives for repeated repairs but then calls $300 Bachamann locos "junk" because the decoders have less features, or because the loco benefits from some small tweak most anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude can do on their own?
People like my neighbor that owns a 7 series BMW that has had nothing but problems since he bought it, and several days has just refused to start. I have seen it towed out of his driveway three times in the last year.
This guy scoffs at my Chevrolet Impala for lacking the refinement and subtle engineering nuances of his fine automobile. I gave him a ride to the airport last March when his BMW failed, and he actually criticized the ride quality on the way.
It started when I turned the key.
My Impala is ten times the car his pile of junk is.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL What kind of psycholgy accepts having to return $700 locomotives for repeated repairs but then calls $300 Bachamann locos "junk" because the decoders have less features, or because the loco benefits from some small tweak most anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude can do on their own? People like my neighbor that owns a 7 series BMW that has had nothing but problems since he bought it, and several days has just refused to start. I have seen it towed out of his driveway three times in the last year. This guy scoffs at my Chevrolet Impala for lacking the refinement and subtle engineering nuances of his fine automobile. My Impala is ten times the car his pile of junk is. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What kind of psycholgy accepts having to return $700 locomotives for repeated repairs but then calls $300 Bachamann locos "junk" because the decoders have less features, or because the loco benefits from some small tweak most anyone with a basic mechanical aptitude can do on their own?
This guy scoffs at my Chevrolet Impala for lacking the refinement and subtle engineering nuances of his fine automobile.
I almost used the BMW analogy earlier in this thread......
I was once the shop foreman in a BMW dealership for a few years......
Yes, your Impala, or the Police Special Crown Vic's that I owned for years, are 80% of the performance and features, five times the reliability, and 1/3 of the cost of BMW 7.
My FORD FLEX LIMITED with twin turbo eccoboost and all wheel drive has higher customer satisfaction and loyalty than any BMW or Benz.
Again, diminishing returns, three times the money, for 20% more performance and "refinement", at the cost of reliablity.
Kinda sounds like a Broadway or MTH loco........
"Parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems" - who knows the source of that quote?
Maybe I will buy those three more Bachmann locos even though I don't really need them......they will cost less than one BLI monster I would have to rewire.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"Parts left out cost nothing and cause no service problems"
I am going to be vague and not violate my NDA here...
About twenty years ago, a manufacturer of industrial diesel engines (exact year, manufacturer, and engine model redacted) decided to remove the Exhaust Gas Temperature Sensor from the location immediately before the low pressure turbocharger.
It was determined that this value could be calculated by the control module using input from four other sensors.
The sensor that was deleted cost nothing and caused no service problems... LOL!
Four of these engines entered service in my territory. All four of them began logging fault codes for high exhaust temperature, but there was no exhaust temperature sensor.
This was a huge service problem for over a year, and several software updates were attempted to correct the issue.
In the end, we installed the sensor, which required replacing the exhaust manifolds and wiring harnesses on all four engines.
I hope I was vague enough.
I don't even want to think how you can POSSIBLY determine the temprature at one point based on the temperature at others. Doesn't even make sense to me. Something in the middle of two other sensors - you can make an educated guess - if it's A upstream and B downstream, the value in between pretty much MUST be somewhere between A and B.
I've owned several BMWs. None opf them ahs cost me more to own or maintain than other cars I've owned. The trick is to avoid the dealer once the warranty and free service are done. But I wouldn't own a 7 series, too big and bulky. I prefer the performance aspect, thus my current 2012 135.
Guess I've been lucky with models, too - any that needed work out of the box were simple fixes, not worth sending back - but there's little I'm not willing to attempt to fix on my own.
SeeYou190I hope I was vague enough.
rrinker I don't even want to think how you can POSSIBLY determine the temperature at one point based on the temperature at others.
Another fun misdesign-assumption festival is the original VT365-derived PowerCerebrovascularAccident 6.0L motor. Once you eliminate the long laundry list of crippling errors made to turn a schoolbus motor into a 6BT competitor, you wind up with a pretty good motor... but spend the same money and time on improving an actual Cummins and you get twice the performance with far less unreliability...
The good news for steam fans is ScaleTrains will be starting to offer detailed steam engines without the same electronics. From what I read, this has been an issue for BLI steam engines for some years now.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrinker I don't even want to think how you can POSSIBLY determine the temprature at one point based on the temperature at others. Doesn't even make sense to me. Something in the middle of two other sensors - you can make an educated guess - if it's A upstream and B downstream, the value in between pretty much MUST be somewhere between A and B.
Not at all.
There is a very strong initiative in the heavy duty industry to remove as many sensors from engines as possible.
There are EPA guidelines that require certain sensors to exist in order to verify that emission control components are functioning as required. If you can demonstrate to the EPA (the agency with legislated authority) that a sensor is not required because you can calculate the value with other inputs, the EPA will allow the manufacturer to delete a mandated sensor.
The "primary turbocharger exhaust gas inlet temperature sensor" was "virtualized" using input from the Exhaust Gas Pressure Sensor, Turbocharger Speed Sensor, individual cylinder Exhaust Temperature Sensors, and commanded fuel rate. The EPA agreed that the calculated value was accurate, and the mandated sensor was removed.
The service problems were with thresholds for logging fault codes, which are also mandated by the EPA. Since the value was calculated, any abnormality in the input to the control module could cause the calculated value to exceed prescribed limits to what is identified as normal operation.
The system would log faults, and derate the engine (which is also EPA mandated), when there was no system failure.
I have said too much, and this has zero to do with ACERT. These were stationary installations.
Overmod"typical railroad maintenance"
There is no such thing as typical railroad maintenance. There are locations that take the end user's responsibility for engine maintenance seriously, and locations that do not.
There is nothing engine manufacturers can do to force an end user to follow all prescribed maintenance guideline.
There is no requirement to use "expensive" brand name parts for maintenance interval service, to do so would be illegal under EPA guidelines and expose a manufacturer to serious liability. There is also no legislation requiring an end user to correctly follow all required maintenance.
I could show you railroads in Florida that maintain all equipment perfectly, and other railroads that do not. Same with municipal transit operations, refuse collection companies, or any other customer grouping. From my own experience, only United Parcel Service and FedEx have near-perfect maintenance programs, but I only know of a small percentage of their operations.
Nothing is "typical" anywhere.
riogrande5761The good news for steam fans is ScaleTrains will be starting to offer detailed steam engines without the same electronics.
Does this mean ScaleTrains will be making "DC" steam engines?
If so, this might be good news.
SeeYou190 riogrande5761 The good news for steam fans is ScaleTrains will be starting to offer detailed steam engines without the same electronics. Does this mean ScaleTrains will be making "DC" steam engines? If so, this might be good news. -Kevin
riogrande5761 The good news for steam fans is ScaleTrains will be starting to offer detailed steam engines without the same electronics.
Well, their current offerings include DC powered, DCC ready locomotives, currently all diesels.
So, we can hope that they stay with that formula as they rework the MTH line.
Assuming they do offer DC versions without sound, that will in many ways be the ultimate irony of the MTH HO legacy........
The guy who believed all trains needed his "special" sound and control system, having his stuff re-enter the market available in DC form.
And, if Scale Trains does that, and it goes well for them, it says something about Broadway as well.
Not to interrupt this long winded discussion of DC verses DCC, but to get back to my looking for information on my new BLI 4-8-4, can I remove the Rolling Thunder radio card from my Paragon 3 decoder and still have the decoder operate correctly? I will never be purchasing the Rolling Thunder receiver. It also seems likely that the engine will draw less power without the transmitter card.
Capt.Briggcan I remove the Rolling Thunder radio card from my Paragon 3 decoder and still have the decoder operate correctly?
I do expect power consumption to be materially reduced in the absence of RF broadcast, although some of the WiFi chipsets and cores optimized for very high speed have been explicitly designed for extremely low power and good battery-power management. My suspicion is that they're using obsolescent older RF transceivers or cores from similarly obsolescent 'phone designs...
Just heard back from the BLI maintenance department, and the answer is that the decoder will work fine without the RF daughter board.