I have the opportunity to buy a Sunset Models brass locomotive, but before I commit, I would like to hear opinions about theur quality - particularly how well they run and ease ofinstalling DCC. Thanks in advance !
Meant SUNSET of course !
[Hi Beausabre - I edited your subject title for you. FYI: Actually, you can edit it yourself using the edit button at the bottom of your post. ~Tom/User mod]
Most run really well, it would best to post up pics of the model your looking at as all brands of brass have had duds. Especially the early Korean built models when they were learning the craft. Pretty much all Sunsets are can motor driven, so DCC is just a matter of hooking up the decoder. A keep alive is also a good idea if there is room in the model. Tenders are completely open on the inside for sound if its a steam locomotive and not a diesel. Most of the Sunset models were built by Samhongsa in South Korea for the HO models. Most all run well, but cracked gears are not unheard of. If so, NWSL has them, so its not a crisis. Let me know the exact model your looking at and we can go from there. Mike the Aspie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
All brass can be fussy. It seems like no two runs were the same but there were particular manufacturers/importers that had reputations for a higher quality of running gear and details.
One good resource is the Brass Trains site where you can study good photos of most models and decide for yourself. Depending on the amount you want to invest in renewing the running gear, if necessary, that is up to you.
Sunset had a "Prestige" line that was, if I'm not mistaken, geared toward the budget-minded modeler. Slightly less details and maybe some shortcuts in the running quality.
A good deal of the brass inventory now is at least twenty-years or more in age. That means there will almost certainly be some mechanical work that will need to be done. One of the common defects is in the less-desirable rubber connector between the motor and worm gear shaft. These are nearly always crumbled and deteriorated. There are silicone replacements available. Higher-end models will have a universal drive shaft or mechanical, flexible coupling.
One point in the DCC conversion that can get challenging is the connector between the engine and tender. You need at least three wires, or five if you want a headlight. Fitting the plug and socket might take some cutting and filing, plus the soldering skill to make up a plug. I have been using micro-USB plugs recently.
If you like to tinker, and you feel the price is right, go for it.
Good Luck, Ed
Sunset - Generally very good runners. As with all brass - it depends on the model. I'm sure they made some dogs over the years. I have five sunsets (SP consolidations and valley malleys and a cab forward) and they all run very well especially the SP 2-6-0. The cab forward needed lots of fiddling to get it running well - the others were good out of the box.
DCC was typical for brass - extra pick up wipers and lots of messing with the electrical path to get good pick up. The valley malleys had good pick up from the factory.
Which models are you looking at?
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I only have one, a CPR 2-10-4 "Selkirk" with QSI decoder installed. It has run flawlessly, except for two small problems. A screw backed out partway on a crank arm and it caught and stalled the engine. It was a quick fix. The second item was a bit more involved, and I asked Scott Mann at Sunset to take a look at it. He agreed and returned it to me within about three weeks, fixed. The socket for the DCC connector plug had slipped deeper into the frame and could not be retrieved easily.
The model is very faithful to its prototype, well painted, runs smoothly and quietly. I would say it was worth the price, quite a bit less than the premier brands still selling brass.
I would avoid the "Prestige Series" engines. They were inexpensively built, and have a reputation for having issues. Since they came out during the 1980's, I have avoided all Sunset models. I was working in a model train store at the time, and there were people who were dissatisfied with the Prestige Series engines.
I am told by other brass collectors that the other Sunset engines can be a good value for the money spent and can run well.
John
I have quite a few, all USRA designs and models from the 1980's.
1 Light Pacific
2 Heavy Mikados
1 Heavy Mountain
All run fine. I will not convert any to DCC, so I know nothing about that.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
From the narrowgauge side, I have owned and still own and run several. I bought 2 of the HOn3 K-36 (later sold one in a "traffic slowdown") and a K-28. All are early-mid 90s runs. Not the fanciest stuff you can buy, but generally good runners. Wouldn't mind picking up another someday.
I converted both my K-28 and K-36 to DCC/sound with Tsunami decoders. The trick to running well is to use lots of wipers on both sides, loco and engine. Plenty of room in the tender for decoder and speaker.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I am not a brass expert, I buy them because they are nicely detailed, rugged, and meet my needs.
A big plus to the models I own, all from Sunset, Key, United/PFM, Tenshodo, and Alco, is that they are very easy to disassemble and repair/maintain as needed.
My few plastic steam locomotives, all Bachmann, are more fragile and difficult to disassemble.
I'd lie thank all of you for taking time to reply. My intesest was piqued by a PRR H6sb 2-8-0. Unfortunately, it was part of the Prestige line, so I decided to pass. I'm now considering a Lambert H6sb versus a Sunset H10s. I'm leaning towards the H6sb as I think it's more appropriate for my envisioned layout, a 1940's central Pennsylvania short line (Lookin' at you, Bellefone Central, except with coal traffic to augment the gypsum - and, yes, I know the BFC had a stable of H9's). So, protypical...but the thing is that the Sunset model has a 90F82 tender with a brakeman's doghouse. Now, I've never seen a photo of an H8-H10 tender with a doghouse. Frankly, I think Sunset tacked it to the H10 because they had the patterns from L1s and I1s models. If it didn't have the doghouse, I'd be tempted...And , no, I'm not gonna ruin a factory painted model renoving it. Sigh
Would this ease your conscience? Don't know which H model this one is, but... there's a doghouse.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-s4237y20.jpg
selector Would this ease your conscience? Don't know which H model this one is, but... there's a doghouse. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-s4237y20.jpg
Hi, thats an I1sa, a 2-10-0. Those commonly had doghouses, along with L1s, M1s, and J1s(and others).
The picture is labelled incorrectly. Its not an H class, nor is it 4337, but rather 4237. The url has the correct number.
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
Instagram (where I share projects!): https://www.instagram.com/trainman440
I joined a couple brass modelers groups on Facebook, and also, after buying a model done by a famous painter and detailer, I have gotten to know him personally through Facebook.
After some very specific examples he gave me regarding durability issues that were designed into some of the Korean brass models (which can and do result in premature component failure), I have now (just this past week) sold off my Korean brass models (it was only 3) in favor of mostly Japanese-made older brass, or in one case, still a Korean model but the gearbox has been newly replaced with a Japanese-made Katsumi gearbox, and the motor may also have been replaced.
I'm 51 now, but I am listening to the advice of some older modelers who've spent many years playing with brass (some of my personal friends were telling me the same information 25 years ago, but like most people I was seduced by the outstanding level of detail on the Korean brass). They are telling me that the Japanese-made brass is very rugged and never wears out. Some components like siderods are heavier and will last longer. The axle bearings will outlast the Korean-made ones, as one specific example.
So if you want all the details in the world, up to date electronics, and you have unlimited funds, go ahead and buy the latest, highly detailed Korean stuff made by Boo-Rim, or Sam Model Tech (formerly Samhongsa) or Ajin Precision...Some of it does run very well indeed, but for how long, we just don't know.
However, the older Japanese stuff, especially if open frame motors are replaced with can motors, and if the occasional bad zamac crumbling gearbox is replaced, can actually be a better deal and a better value--but you may need a pro to do the required upgrades if you can't do them yourself.
I just bought 3 heavily reworked and pro painted older brass steamers for less than the price of 1 new Korean model.
Respectfully submitted--
Yes, Dead giveaway is the Worthington Feed Water Heater hung from the side of the boiler, the only PRR locos that had that feature. Anyway, thanks for contributing to the discussion.
I have a number of the Sunset Prestige Pennsy steam locomotives. The H6sb is a decent model, but some had with build qaulity. My guess is that you should be able to tell that on inspection. If I remember right, the Sunset has sharper details that the Lambert. The Prestige engines that I have found to be less desirable are the M1a, I1, and K4. All of these model lack detail that similar priced version of the have. The PFM K4 is excellent and so is the I1 if you get one with the correct boiler. The I1's have a larger boiler that the K4 or L1, but the earlier PFM I1 had the incorrect K4/L1 boiler which is too small. For the M1a, you better bet is either the GEM one or save up for the Oriental one. I have found the Prestige A5 and B6sb to be pretty good models and way cheaper than the top of the line Key.
Hope this helps,
Eric
elauterbach I have found the Prestige A5 and B6sb to be pretty good models and way cheaper than the top of the line Key.
I have found the Prestige A5 and B6sb to be pretty good models and way cheaper than the top of the line Key.
I might be wrong, but I believe the reason for that is because the A5 and B6sb from Sunset are equivalent to the older gem models, only with upgraded wheels, motor, and gearbox. Therefore they are different than the others in the Prestige line, some of which are very questionable. Sunset has yet to do me wrong. Personally I don't have a bias for Japan/Korean made models, as Ive had gems and rotten eggs from both.
If I had to choose between a Lambert and Sunset H6sb, I'd go with Sunset. It has more and finer detail. For me, brass engines fail most often from zinc pest. Unlike Lambert, Sunset engines come with a can motor and brass wheel centers, making the only possible failing point the gear box. My sunset engines have KTM gearboxes, which from what I read are super reliable.
Oh, and I have yet to run an engine to the point where its somewhat thinner drive rods start affecting performance. Ususally, the motor is the first to go.
Honestly, there's no wrong decision, brass engines are easy to service and overall very reliable.
Cheers!
Charles
I can understand your concerns as it's a fairly big investment for many folks and you need to choose wisely. I have been a custom painter since 1973 and a modeler way before that time. I have seen many Sunset Models come through the shop and in my personal collections. I think basically there are 3 Sunsets. One is the stuff manufactured by Samhongsa which I consider to be very good quality brass. All I've owned or worked on were well made and durable. The next would be the ones marked "Made In Korea". I've seen quite a few of them and they are nice engines and similar in construction and quality to the Samhongsa equipment. I know no facts but have been under the assumption that they were made by the remnants of the Samhongsa factory people. The third incarnation is their Prestige Line. When the price of brass started going high for a time they were Sunsets answer to the climbing prices. They were built cheaper than the current state of the art in brass. They cut quality and often left details off to get the price down to where people would continue to buy. I don't have good thoughts on these engines. I find them to be cheap and substandard. The side rods are very soft which causes them to wear out or bend. The brass used for the boiler/tender shells is much thinner and can dent or bend easily. The motors seem cheap and the axle bearings are too soft. The level of detail is acceptable but went back toward the earlier brass such as a single brass wire for the injector to check valve line whereas the SOTA at the time used various unions and fittings in the bends as appropriate, etc. I have also found they tend to have brittle screws and often break when removing or reinstalling them. I have never had any issue with gearbox problems but considering their cost reduction/saving quest I'm sure that would be an area to cheapen the product.
Customers have brought many of these issues up to me and some I have noted myself. I would say you get what you pay for most of the time. Depending on the service you expect from the Prestige Line with your layout you may need to look around. I would think on a large club layout where the engine is expected to pull longer trains and run many, many hours I would pass on them. For a home layout of small to medium size they probably should last quite a while if kept lubed and maintained properly.The older Sunset models don't have those issues.
The particular engine you seem to like has been imported and manufactured by many companies over the years from Japan and Korea so I would consider looking further than the Sunsets. I can not say the H8-9-10 engines didn't have doghouses as I'm not an SPF. I would think with a couple thousand 2-8-0's on the roster somewhere an H series engine acquired a doghouse. Tender swaps did happen fairly often.
These are my observations and I'm sure there will be many to disagree with me. I hope this will help you in your decision process.
Just my 2¢.
oldline1