I heard that the Lionel and MTH trains were never built to scale accurancy...is this true?
[Edited]
If you mean "O-scale" "O-gauge" then, yes - it's generally more toy-like. The MTH HO offerings are much better in that respect. I have their 10-car 20th Century Limited passenger car set and the accuracy is good-to-very good. I don't own any of their locomotives.
Every scale compromises somewhere in order to make it operate on tighter curves. If you want higher accuracy (e.g. newer brass locomotives and rolling stock) then you're going to pay for it.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Interestingly enough, the Proto-48 community thinks some of the Lionel freight-car shells are well-enough scaled and detailed to use (with appropriately superdetailed and properly gauged and wheeled trucks) for high-accuracy 1:48 use.
Most of the 'toylike' compromise is associated with three-rail wheel profiles and the Russian gauge that is O track if equipment is 1:48. In general, locomotives built to 2-rail standards (with appropriate flange and wheel standards) look much less toylike than 3-rail, and locomotives given a full P:48 running-gear conversion can look very accurate indeed, particularly if one of the very-well-detailed MTH engines (like the Bullet/Blue Comet Pacifics) are used as the starting point.
Many manufacturers have products that are scale, and other products or lines that are aimed at the 'toy train' market. Toy trains are completely divorced from 'scale' and rivet-counting concerns, but are optimized to run on impossibly sharp curves and steep grades to have fun, or appeal to nostalgia. Two different worlds that are only seldom bridged with a single product (which is usually recognized as terrifically important, like the first Lionel 'scale' Hudson, when it appears).
tstageIf you mean "O-scale" then, yes
MTH offers O scale engines in Europe, which are exactly to scale (as far as a model can ever be to scale).
Their "O gauge" toy trains are not to scale, they are what the are intended to be - toys.
Happy times!
Ulrich (aka The Tin Man)
"You´re never too old for a happy childhood!"
Tinplate ToddlerMTH offers O scale engines in Europe, which are exactly to scale (as far as a model can ever be to scale).
Ulrich, can you post a picture of their Chapelon Pacific, one of the best scale models made?
This is scale 'accurancy' enough for most applications, I think.
Many of the Lionel and MTH trains are built smaller than O scale (i.e. 1:48), but they all use the same track gauge as O scale. Words like Classic, Traditional, and O27 all indicate they are smaller. They also usually have less detail parts as well as those that are not scale size. Another clue is the manufacturer's recommended minimum curve, 27" (which is where O27 comes from) means smaller.
MTH's Premier line is built to scale and has good detail. Some of Lionel trains are built to scale size, but it's not always easy to tell which ones they are.
Atlas O scale are built to scale for their Master and Trainmen lines with Trainmen having less detail, but still pretty good. Their Industrail Rail line is smaller.
Atlas Master and Trainmen trains are usually available with scale wheels and couplers (although they may be hard to find) set up for 2 rail operation. MTH provides some of their Premier steam locomotives with a 2 rail scale wheels version, 2 rail conversion wheel kits for some of their Premier diesels, and 2 rail conversion wheel kits for their Premier cars.
Lionel and MTH both have an HO line that is built to HO scale size. MTH has an S line that is built to S scale size. Lionel produces American Flyer, a line built to S scale size.
Paul
Overmod Tinplate Toddler MTH offers O scale engines in Europe, which are exactly to scale (as far as a model can ever be to scale). Ulrich, can you post a picture of their Chapelon Pacific, one of the best scale models made?
Tinplate Toddler MTH offers O scale engines in Europe, which are exactly to scale (as far as a model can ever be to scale).
My pleasure!
Sunset's "3rd Rail Division" makes 1:48 scale brass models designed to run on three rail track. Lionel and MTH also make scale equipment. As noted, minimum curve can be an indication (scale three-rail equipment will often require O-54 or O-72 curves.
There is a type of three-rail model sometimes called "semi-scale", these are usually engines that are scale size but lack full detailing. Lionel's 773 Hudson (and the similar offering from Williams now) would be an example. Several of the Lionel diesels like the F3, FM Trainmaster, GP-7/9 and EMD switcher are/were 1:48 scale proportions but not as well detailed as a comparable recent engine from say Atlas O.
divebardave I heard that the Lionel and MTH trains were never built to scale accurancy...is this true?
If you want accuracy, there are plenty of O Gauge trains that will get you there. Lionel, MTH and many others make spectacular scale models, just be prepared to pay more and operate a much larger layout.
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The Wheel flanges for one are too big on O for prototype.
For many years (at least back to the 1980's) O-gauge folks have used the term "hi-rail" to denote layouts built using three-rail track, but 1:48 scale equipment. In recent years, the term "scale hi-rail" has been used too, to denote layouts that take things a step further, like using Kadee couplers and adding more details and weathering to the models.
Norm Charbonneau's layout is a great example:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1wreJCi2Ob-MFme9L7Lp9g
The replies so far have just begun to explain ther complex history of Lionel and MTH O gauge trains regarding scale accuracy.
Putting the actual track gauge and wheel flanges aside for a minute, some "O gauge" trains have been made to very high 1/48 scale accuracy, and many have not.
Some were made simiply as toys, others as scale models, some with lots of compromises, some very accurate.
The reason for your question might help us provide a better answer.
Sheldon
Tinplate Toddler My pleasure!
Wow, nice model. I'd be totally happy with detail like that.
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divebardave The Wheel flanges for one are too big on O for prototype.
divebardaveThe Wheel flanges for one are too big on O for prototype.
True, but then I have never seen a 1/1 scale steam engine being powered by 2 rail DC, either.
If you look at the flanges of Britain´s famous 15" gauge lines, like the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Rlwy. or the Ravenglass & Eskdale Rlwy. you will note that they are indeed bigger than the correctly scaled down version would be.
O gauge and O scale have a spacing of 32mm between the rails. That is not correct, as the scale is 1/48. The correct spacing would be 29.9 or 30mm.
wjstix divebardave The Wheel flanges for one are too big on O for prototype. Of course that's true for all model railroad scales, unless you're modelling in 'fine scale'. Standard HO scale wheelsets are about twice the width of real wheels too.
Fine scale is actually different from Proto scale. Fine scale wheels are roughly half way between standard Scale and Proto scale as defined in the NMRA's standards.
Fine scale is defined for HO, TT, and N.
S now uses what used to be Fine scale as standard Scale.
AFAIK O never had a Fine scale, but I don't have every iteration of the NMRA standards Plus, Europe uses a different set.
The history of scales and standards is very murky with many twists and turns.
As I recall, fine scale is what later came to be called Proto scale, like "Proto:48". I think the in-between is more commonly called "semi-scale"? Which in it's self is confusing, as the term has/had a different meaning regarding O gauge, particularly three-rail.
O "scale" gets confusing in large part because O gauge (originally '0' as in 'zero' gauge), 1.25", was created as a toy train gauge by Marklin without any regard to what the correct scale would be. It was just the smallest of their numbered toy train gauges.
If you divide it out, it's 1:45 scale (1:45.2 to be exact) or 17/64ths = 1 foot. In the US, we chose to use 1/4" = 1 foot, or 1:48 scale, as it would be easier to calculate. In Europe, where the metric system was better known, they opted for 7mm =1 foot, or 1:43.55. So our North American O trains are a bit undersized compared to the gauge, and European models are a bit oversized. (That's also why there are so many European-made 1:43 scale vehicles.)
HO developed in Europe, so "Half-O" was 1/2 of European O scale, 3.5mm = 1 foot, or 1:87.1 scale. But that's another story....
In Germany, Switzerland and Austria, O scale is 1/45, which is quite correct for the gauge of 32mm. In France, UK and the rest of the European countries, O scale is 1/43.5.
wjstixO "scale" gets confusing in large part because O gauge (originally '0' as in 'zero' gauge), 1.25", was created as a toy train gauge by Marklin without any regard to what the correct scale would be. It was just the smallest of their numbered toy train gauges.
Actually, Marklin started out with gauge 1 (=45mm gauge) and even bigger, but with electric motors becoming smaller and running on lower voltage, they went for a smaller scale, which they simply called "Zero", as "One" was already taken.