Henrey, well said! It's like a Mercedes dealer came peddling their cars in a place full of Volkswagen and Ford people, so all the talk is going to be, hey, this is too expensive or not worth it. Which furthers my point, Arrowhead probably isn't marketing their models at most of the readers here going by the majority of responses. I'm almost sorry this topic was even started in this forum by the posts.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761I'm almost sorry this topic was even started in this forum by the posts. Tongue Tied
Well I started it and I have no regrets. I also started the Atlas Factory Closed thread. It's news that affects most of us and it should be discussed here. It's not N scale or G scale or outdoor railroads or narrow gauge. HO is the center of the hobby.
Haters are going to hate.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I was debating on starting an Arrowhead thread myself, if no one else had. Its a new maker, so it is completely valid as a subject. The issue of pricepoint didn't faze me at all in any way. The only rub, to me as an individual, is that product #0001 in their catalog wasn't really for me. Which is like...the biggest possible "whatever" there is. There's *lots* of products that aren't for me, a Mid-Atlantic Contemporary modeler.
You are right Henry. H8ters gonna hate, and on another forum there are some of those.
I agree about the factory closing topic, very relevant to the center of the hobby for sure. But for the Arrowhead responses, predictable unfortunately. Hopefully newsworthy for a few.
NittanyLion The only rub, to me as an individual, is that product #0001 in their catalog wasn't really for me. Which is like...the biggest possible "whatever" there is. There's *lots* of products that aren't for me, a Mid-Atlantic Contemporary modeler.
The only rub, to me as an individual, is that product #0001 in their catalog wasn't really for me. Which is like...the biggest possible "whatever" there is. There's *lots* of products that aren't for me, a Mid-Atlantic Contemporary modeler.
Yes of course. The more years go by, there is a higher probability that anyone new model is going to not be of interest to a good sized percent of train hobbiest. You gotta nail the scale, time frame, car type and road name. A lot if stars have to align to get buyers. I got lucky and my wallet didn't this time.
SeeYou190 VOLKER LANDWEHR My two examples show that the prices need not necessarily be the same as Sheldon suggests. . For my needs, price really does not matter. What I need are kits. I hate RTR cars because they never meet my standards (except for Fox Valley), and I need to re-kit a RTR car if I buy one. . Every kit I build gets Kadee trucks and couplers (+$11.00), custom paint and decals (+$10.00), and non-magnetic weights. To obtain the car I want, I will gladly by a $60.00 Yarmouth kit, $50.00 Westerfield kit, or even a $90.00 Sunshine kit from eBay. I would prefer simpler plastic kits, but there are not that many available. . Tichy makes quite a few nice freight car kits in the sub $20.00 range that build into beautiful models. These are always readily available and easy to obtain. . My freight car fleet is my love, my pride, and my pleasure. I know that is not normal, but it is me. Freight cars are center stage, with passenger cars and locomotives playing supporting roles. . I will gladly pay the same price as a RTR car to get the undecorated kit I want. . However, the 2-3 cars I will buy is not enough for a manufacturer to justify offering these. So, like I said, I am very thankful Arrowhead made these kits an option even though I will not be buying one. . -Kevin .
VOLKER LANDWEHR My two examples show that the prices need not necessarily be the same as Sheldon suggests.
.
For my needs, price really does not matter. What I need are kits. I hate RTR cars because they never meet my standards (except for Fox Valley), and I need to re-kit a RTR car if I buy one.
Every kit I build gets Kadee trucks and couplers (+$11.00), custom paint and decals (+$10.00), and non-magnetic weights. To obtain the car I want, I will gladly by a $60.00 Yarmouth kit, $50.00 Westerfield kit, or even a $90.00 Sunshine kit from eBay. I would prefer simpler plastic kits, but there are not that many available.
Tichy makes quite a few nice freight car kits in the sub $20.00 range that build into beautiful models. These are always readily available and easy to obtain.
My freight car fleet is my love, my pride, and my pleasure. I know that is not normal, but it is me. Freight cars are center stage, with passenger cars and locomotives playing supporting roles.
I will gladly pay the same price as a RTR car to get the undecorated kit I want.
However, the 2-3 cars I will buy is not enough for a manufacturer to justify offering these. So, like I said, I am very thankful Arrowhead made these kits an option even though I will not be buying one.
-Kevin
Volker,
Kevin and I are in agreement here.
Nearly every one of my 800 freight cars has Kadee trucks, refitted with Intermountain wheel sets, and genuine Kadee couplers, easily $10 to $15 just to start.
The car itself may start life as a simple Athearn Blue Box kit, or it might be a more expensive high detail plastic kit, or a "craftsman kit" of some other materials.
Or it may be RTR, or maybe a vintage Athearn or Varney metal car..........
But cost is not measured for me in some "absolute" "I will not pay X for that car" kind of way.
That said, I have no plans to replace the less detailed cars I have with $50 RTR (or high detail kits), but that will not stop me from spending $50 on a high detail car, kit or RTR.
The product in question here, appears to be a very high quality, high detail model of a very specific car. If you model those roads/regions/era, and you are willing to afford a few, or a fleet, go for it.
A few years back I purchased B&O I-12 wagon top cabooses from Spring Mills Depot, a company who's products are exceptional in every way.
I purchaced several RTR lettered in B&O, and several undecorated kits for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
The RTR models were $53.95 each, and worth every penny.
The kits were $43.95 each, 19% less.
In my experiance, that is about the typical maximum difference between kit and RTR in the high detail relm.
Many are much closer to the RTR price, or even the same, some are not.
And, I have to say, I'm not a price complainer, I'm a capitalist. I either make more money, or negotiate a better deal, or do without. I set my own standards as to value for my needs, but I don't complain about what other hard working people ask for their products and services. I don't accuse them of "price gouging".
I can't see their books, I don't know what their profit margins or expenses are. I don't want anyone telling me how much money I can charge, and I won't treat others that way. The market will decide prices - oh yea, I said that in that other thread..........
And I have been known to walk away from customers who acted as if my prices were too high and wanted to negotiate too much. I have work booked for the next two years......I don't have to work for people who think I am cheating them.
So either buy the thing or not, the market will decide who was right.....
But as stated earlier, I have no dog in this fight, that car is too new for my layout.
This has never been an inexpensive hobby, but actually, adjusted for inflation, the last 10-15 years have been some of the best "value" and "quality" times in my 50 years at this - not like when I managed a train department in a hobby shop.
Sheldon
NittanyLion I was debating on starting an Arrowhead thread myself, if no one else had. Its a new maker, so it is completely valid as a subject. The issue of pricepoint didn't faze me at all in any way. The only rub, to me as an individual, is that product #0001 in their catalog wasn't really for me. Which is like...the biggest possible "whatever" there is. There's *lots* of products that aren't for me, a Mid-Atlantic Contemporary modeler.
And there are lots of products that are not for me, like any prototype made after September 1954..........
So the closer Arrowhead got your needs, the further they would be from mine......
It is an ever growing divide in this hobby.......
As a side note, from someone who was once the shop forman in the BMW dealership.......
They build great cars, so does Benz, but they are so far past any practical limit on deminishing returns that they only appeal to a specific type of customer. And it is not just about the money.......
Some will laugh at this comparision, but it is valid.
In 2002 I bought a FORD Crown Vic LX, special ordered with the high performance package like the police have and otherwise pretty loaded. That car was less than $30,000.
If you compare the features and hard performance specs of that car to the same year BMW 735, the FORD delivered 80%-85% of the performance and features for 40% of the cost - how much are you willing to pay for the last 15% of performance and features?
And don't tell me the BMW will last longer, I know what it takes to keep a BMW on the raod, but look at the miles on those cabs and police cars.
VOLKER LANDWEHRThen you are in a lucky position that many here, like me, don't share. As I said I wouldn't buy the kit at this price.
I think you're thinking of the past when a significant proportion of a kit's cost was devoted to paint and lettering. If the lettering was by decal, then there was the cost of producing the decal also priced in. RTR generally wasn't available and kits tended to have fairly crude parts that needed no special packaging. And kits were often the only form a new item was produced in, so production was optimzed to simply stuff them in a box.
Now, there is sometime painting involved, but much is actually the plastic cast in the correct color. Lettering is by pad printing. So decoration of the car is a fraction of the relative cost in the old days. And each car sold is usually sold as a decorated kit, the cost is still there in its entireity. While Kadee and Tichy do offers undecs, the declining availability of decals makes it moot for many prototyp[es unless you go the custom decal route.
Since so few kits are ordered, they make up a relatively insignificant part of the overall costing process. If you make 10,000 items to a design and only 200 are ordered as kits and they are in all 10 roadnames the model is offered in but in differing quantities, say 40, 50, 30, 20, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 and 10, does it even make sense to cost a kit out as separate from the bulk of the costing involved in building RTR stock? Not really, because costing, producing and inventorying such short run item really doesn't cost less than a decorated RTR or the difference is so insignificant it makes little sense to do so.
That said, it's a nice car at a not unreasonable price compared to the MSRP of many others. I come to this by way of narrowgauge, where there was nothing RTR in HOn3 before-Blackstone. Narrowgaugers tend to be well aware of the length of the process needed to build RTR vs buying and buiding kits. While they are made overseas by folks who make very modest wages, here in the US when you build them, you need to think of the opportunity cost to you when you build those kits versus whatever else you could apply that time to that they also take away time from. For me that's enjoyable, to be quite frank, and I expect to pay at least as much for it all in pieces as I would value it as RTR.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
BigDaddyI can see that this thread is going to get merged with the "This hobby is too expensive" thread.
I don't think the hobby, in this case the RTR car, is to expensive. The same price for an unpainted, undecorated kit puts me off.
I agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn't aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don't care about the price and can afford it.
With the choices given by Arrowhead it would be an easy choice for me, the RTR model. I model the 1920s so the model isn't for me anyway.Regards, Volker
mlehmanVolker, I think you're thinking of the past when a significant proportion of a kit's cost was devoted to paint and lettering. If the lettering was by decal, then there was the cost of producing the decal also priced in. RTR generally wasn't available and kits tended to have fairly crude parts that needed no special packaging. And kits were often the only form a new item was produced in, so production was optimzed to simply stuff them in a box. Now, there is sometime painting involved, but much is actually the plastic cast in the correct color. Lettering is by pad printing.
I have compared three companies, Intermountain, Walthers Proto, and Arrowhead.
The first two offer undecorated kits at $10+ less than RTR, where Walthers is a Timesaver decorated kit. Arrowhead sells at the same price.
That shows the kits can be sold at lower prices than RTR despite the changes you describe.
AFAIK all these RTR models are painted. The print pads don't fall from the sky either. A year or so ago was a discussion about the high costs of some ScaleTrains containers. The manufacturer's reply was that the printing process needing a number of pads and print steps per side brought the price up.
I think Arrowhead in this case keeps as profit what the save on the kits. As long as there are modelers will to buy kits they need at almost any price it works.
As long as it works it is ok. If not it is no great loss with the small kit numbers sold. Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHRI agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn't aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don't care about the price and can afford it.
I wouldn't characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who "don't care about the price". Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it's more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have.
Think of it this way; it's a matter of picking your poison and what has "value" to you and how you choose to allocate money. There are people who buy expensive stuff in all likihood who by someone elses standards, can't "afford" it. In otherwords, some may live, quite literally, on the edge financially because they choose to buy expensive things rather than save money to have a cushion or funds for whatever should the need arise, and live hand to mouth. Others may be able to buy expensive things regularly and still have plenty of money in savings. As my wife often reminds me, just because you see people with flashy things isn't indicitive of pure wealth. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker on cars: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go".
So my point is, some will loudly complain that this new Arrowhead hopper is too expensive for them and they state they are not buying any. I say, well, maybe. Or maybe that model isn't your "poison" or central enough to your Model RR needs or goals for you to put out "the big bucks" to have it. Yet I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people drop some major bucks on other things that are not necessary to life - what ever it is - be it toys of your choosing - don't want to name anything cause the topic will quickly veer off into whatever is named as tends to happen so easily here.
But you get my drift, even people with fairly meager means will often open up their wallets for things that are "shiny" to them. The Arrowhead models are indeed very shiny, and among the top executed models in HO, but as to what people say on forums - take it with a box car full of salt, it's often more about what is important to them or not as to whether something is truly "too expensive". Thats part of what goes on "under the hood" when you read these reactions to products in forums.
riogrande5761 VOLKER LANDWEHR I agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn't aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don't care about the price and can afford it. I wouldn't characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who "don't care about the price". Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it's more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have. Think of it this way; it's a matter of picking your poison and what has "value" to you and how you choose to allocate money. There are people who buy expensive stuff in all likihood who by someone elses standards, can't "afford" it. In otherwords, some may live, quite literally, on the edge financially because they choose to buy expensive things rather than save money to have a cushion or funds for whatever should the need arise, and live hand to mouth. Others may be able to buy expensive things regularly and still have plenty of money in savings. As my wife often reminds me, just because you see people with flashy things isn't indicitive of pure wealth. Have you ever seen the bumper sticker on cars: I owe, I owe, so off to work I go". So my point is, some will loudly complain that this new Arrowhead hopper is too expensive for them and they state they are not buying any. I say, well, maybe. Or maybe that model isn't your "poison" or central enough to your Model RR needs or goals for you to put out "the big bucks" to have it. Yet I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people drop some major bucks on other things that are not necessary to life - what ever it is - be it toys of your choosing - don't want to name anything cause the topic will quickly veer off into whatever is named as tends to happen so easily here. But you get my drift, even people with fairly meager means will often open up their wallets for things that are "shiny" to them. The Arrowhead models are indeed very shiny, and among the top executed models in HO, but as to what people say on forums - take it with a box car full of salt, it's often more about what is important to them or not as to whether something is truly "too expensive". Thats part of what goes on "under the hood" when you read these reactions to products in forums.
VOLKER LANDWEHR I agree with riogrande5761 that the kit isn't aimed at me. It is aimed at those who don't care about the price and can afford it.
Great post.
There are people who do without, or have no interest in things others find esential, like, big screen TV's, jewlery, European/expensive vacations, fancy clothes, expensive dining, etc, and so they can buy $50 freight cars without any thought to the cost......
In my first post in this thread I linked the video and the shop page and wrote
V.L.: For me it's not clear if the painted models are RTR or kits. The undecorated models are kit but cost just $0.45 less than the painted.
BigDaddy posted an answer from Arrowhead that I misunderstood as I had different expectations: "Thank you for pointing this out. No, that is actually a mistake on part. Undecorated kits are meant to be the same price as the RTR versions, but I won't change it now."
V.L.: I thought, the kits were intended to be less expensive. Now your former post makes sense.
Than came Atlantic Central suggesting that the same price for unpainted, undecorated kit and RTR model is natural and inevitable.
I remembered that I bought kits and RTR models at different prices and looked for the cited more current examples showing that different approaches are possible.
Arrowhead can price their kits as the see fit, no problem.
I like highly detailed cars and am willing to pay today's prices for RTR, but not the same amount for kits where I have to do all the work, especially painting and decorating. I'm needing no car that much.
But that is my opinion. Others see it differently we have seen here. My purpose was to show that the same prices for kit and RTR are not inevitabe. As so often the discussion evolved.
riogrande5761I wouldn't characterized it quite that way, that the Arrowhead kit is aimed at people who "don't care about the price". Many probably do care about the price which is not at all insignificant, but it's more a matter of it being worth it do them to invest in the cost of the AH kit to meet goals they have.
It was meant as a statement not a judgement. When I still worked as a civil engineer I didn't care much about prices of brass locomotive. Now, being retired a have to. Regards, Volker
ATLANTIC CENTRALThere are people who do without, or have no interest in things others find esential, like, big screen TV's, jewlery, European/expensive vacations, fancy clothes, expensive dining, etc, and so they can buy $50 freight cars without any thought to the cost......
Exactly. I do not own a boat, 4 wheel drive truck or classic car, I don't go fishing or hunting, I don't play golf. I do travel, eat out, and buy trains. I drive a ten year old Chevy truck that has been paid for since it left the dealership.
My Visa stopped working a couple of years ago while I was in Chattanooga trying to make a purchase at Chattanooga Depot before they retired and closed the shop. I called Visa and they said it was security lock due to "irregular activity", and I nearly exploded. I said all I use this card for is steak dinners and electric trains. If the purchase is one of those two things there is nothing irregular about it!
Even when we were living paycheck to paycheck, my freight car purchases were always Micro-Trains. I just made fewer purchases.
This thread went way into the ditch.
It is supposed to be about an exciting new manufacturer, Arrowhead Models, that is bringing a nicely detailed hopper car to the market.
I am always excited about a new manufacturer even if they do not make something I will purchase. Health in the hobby market is good for all of us.
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If you compare the features and hard performance specs of that car to the same year BMW 735, the FORD delivered 80%-85% of the performance and features for 40% of the cost - how much are you willing to pay for the last 15% of performance and features?
We can apply that general concept to just about any product, including wine and trains.
As for trains, I wouldn't spend the extra mile on specific prototype details, reserving that effort for the modeler to fine tune the model for the wonkiness of a specific prototype. As a producer, I wouldn't think there would be enough of a market that cared about it.
So in that respect, these releases surprise me.
But since people also seem to buy BMWs and fine wines, I guess market research puts the product on solid footing.
- Douglas
Agreed.
For me, details of a specific prototype are not worth much money at all, especially on rolling stock. OTOH, finding a OEM onboard sound locomotive that runs exceptionally smooth on speed steps 1 through 4, while not emmitting a bunch of non train noises, is worth more money to me than most people; judging by the products being offered.
SeeYou190 ...I am always excited about a new manufacturer even if they do not make something I will purchase. Health in the hobby market is good for all of us.
Good point, Kevin!
As mentioned, I won't be buying that hopper, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be interested in what Arrowhead might offer in the future. I was initially disappointed in Exact Rails' early offerings: beautifully done rolling stock, but all too modern for my layout. When they finally released some appropriate for my era, I was happy to support them, and bought several kits.
Wayne
VOLKER LANDWEHRThan came Atlantic Central suggesting that the same price for unpainted, undecorated kit and RTR model is natural and inevitable. I remembered that I bought kits and RTR models at different prices and looked for the cited more current examples showing that different approaches are possible.
I think I would point out here the word "remember." Just because it was that way in the past doesn't mean the economics currently support markedly cheaper kits. But you bring up another point. Having a kit was often regarded as the way to build things cheaper and so it was, in a day when most people built kits to acquire their freightcar fleets. Now a kit represents something usually chosen for the pleasure it brings the builder or for the way it faciltates the painting process on a particular model.
You mentioned earlier that Walthers and another producer sold their kits for $10 less than RTR. Don't know specofically which kits you're speaking of, but all the Walthers kits vs RTR products I can remember falling into that category were originally produced as kits. The dies/molds were depreciated long ago, the parts are generally not like the latest finest kits, etc in line in general with my earlier comments.
That does point out that another reason I missed earlier behind the converging cost of kits, the fact that the cost of producing new items continues to rise and sales tend to come in smaller quantities, keeping the production cost per unit from easing. If they choose to take a little more profit on a small part of that production for a high demand, but low quantity item, would you rather have cheap kits today and no kits tomorrow or reasonably priced kit that keep the MFG's nose above the water.
VOLKER LANDWEHRI like highly detailed cars and am willing to pay today's prices for RTR, but not the same amount for kits where I have to do all the work, especially painting and decorating. I'm needing no car that much.
I agree that you just don't see the value in the _current_ market pricing of kits and there's nothing wrong with that. To you, kits are intended to save money, nothing else. Today's kits aren't really intended as a budget measure; instead, they are a discretionary pleasure. Given the way people expect RTR now, I really doubt that kits priced for the role you see for them will ever return.
mlehmanI think I would point out here the word "remember." Just because it was that way in the past doesn't mean the economics currently support markedly cheaper kits.
Yes I remembered the price difference from some time ago. Being unsure about the price development I looked for current examples. I found kits on the current Intermountain and Walthers websites with differences of $10+ between kit and RTR. You can look at MB Kleins website too. So my examples are current and not history.
mlehmanYou mentioned earlier that Walthers and another producer sold their kits for $10 less than RTR. Don't know specofically which kits you're speaking of, but all the Walthers kits vs RTR products I can remember falling into that category were originally produced as kits. The dies/molds were depreciated long ago, the parts are generally not like the latest finest kits, etc in line in general with my earlier comments.
If this argument is valid I can't tell. The Walthers kits are Timesaver kits with about one hour building time left. Perhaps the depreciated tooling costs allow for painting, printing and assembly and a $10+ gap to the RTR car. On the other hand there is Intermountain.
mlehmanThat does point out that another reason I missed earlier behind the converging cost of kits, the fact that the cost of producing new items continues to rise and sales tend to come in smaller quantities, keeping the production cost per unit from easing.
Correct but here is one point for consideration: The tooling costs have come down considerably with 3D drawings and machined molds and the labor cost is rising steeply. So I wouldn't necessarily expect the gap to close.Regards, Volker
I think the kit cost vs RTR cost should be in a new thread, and not in ther Arrowhead Models thread.
If this is worth discussing, could we please move the discussion.
Volker,You may want to consider the amount of cars made vs. price.
It's logical to expect that a product that takes less effort (a kit) and material (no paint) to create would be cheaper than one that takes more effort and material to create (RTR). But that is assuming that both products are made in the same numbers. A painted RTR car paint scheme could have a run of 500 or 1000 units. Undec. kits, being comparitively unpopular today, might be made in runs of 200 units or less. Each model has certain fixed costs that must be spread out over the entire production run. Spread them out over fewer units and you'll get a higher cost per unit.
You also should consider that manufacturers like to make one kind of thing. Raw material goes in one end and finished product comes out the other, and every step along the way is the same. Asking for a small number of items to be treated quite differently (don't paint, don't assemble) can be annoying to a manufacturer to the point that they may raise the per unit price on them. Not all do, but some may. It depends on the contract signed by the manufacturer and the importer.
SeeYou190 I think the kit cost vs RTR cost should be in a new thread, and not in ther Arrowhead Models thread. . If this is worth discussing, could we please move the discussion.. -Kevin
If this is worth discussing, could we please move the discussion..
As I said before I was astonished about Arrowhead's pricing. I would have let it go, as it is their decision. Only when Atlantic Central suggested that the same price for kit and RTR are natural and inevitable I got curious with the known results.
Since than people are trying without success to convince me that it is inevitable, though there are current different examples.
As we all, me included, are discussing without knowing all fact, let's leave it at that.
I too am glad about any new manufacturer of high quality products. And the hopper looks great.Regards, Volker