I've just spent an afternoon troubleshooting a problem with a peco three way turnout and learnt a valuable lesson. Several of my locos were stopping as they passed over the right leg of a peco threeway turnout. It's been part of my layout for over a year now and just started to give trouble recently and was gettig worse. I decided to fix the problem and make the turnout more DCC friendly at the same time.
When I installed it I had set up the 3 frogs to be powered from the two sets of tortoise contacts so I assumed that the stopping was caused by the switch blades not making good contact with the stock rails (this has happened to me on normal left and right handed turnouts). I wired the switch rails to the stock rails, but this didn't fix the problem. I was perplexed! When I used a test lamp to check the power, it all looked perfect.
But I wasn't putting the test lamp between the right stock rail of the turnout and the left switch rails, frog and associated left rails of the turnout. I used the right rail a bit further down the track.
The fault was that the rail joiner on the stock rail was not making good electrical contact with the rest of the track and because of the track configuration, there was a gap in the right rail at the other end of the turnout so no power was getting to the right stock rail.
I should never have problem with this 3way turnout now it is soldered to the other rails and the switch rails connected to the stock rail. We live and learn. I'm 64 and didn't think I'd fall for one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
Hi Alan, or should I say "G'day Mate!"
Thanks for sharing your experience. It reinforces my commitment to attaching a feeder to every piece of rail and to putting jumpers between the point rails and the closure rails. My layout is not built yet but I have all the turnouts already and they have been modified as per Allan Gartner's recommendations:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
AlantrainsI should never have problem with this 3way turnout now...
You might. Have you put fingernail polish on the frogs?
No, it's not like putting lipstick on a pig. Peco frogs are plastic, but where the rails come together at a V, the gap between the rails is very small. Most of the time, there's no problem, but sometimes engines with wide wheel tread will bridge the gap between those two hot rails, which are oppositely polarized, and cause a short. The solution is to insulate just a quarter-inch or so of that V, so wheels passing over don't make contact with both rails. My insulator-of-choice is black nail polish. I've put it on each of my Peco turnouts and never had to do it again.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks Mr Beasley but this is the electro frog version. Here's a picture.
The offending rail joint is indicated. You can see my wiring to make this turnout fault free now.
Yeah, the frogs on Peco Insulfrogs are plastic, but the frogs on Electrofrogs are metal.
I wouldn't solder every rail joiner on the layout because you need room for expansion and contraction.
Adding feeders to every rail joiner is no guarantee. Every once in a while, a loco will come to a halt on my layout. I wind up sliding the rail joiner back and forth to re-establish power to a dead section of track. And, every once in a while, that rail joiner has a feeder wire attached to it.
Rich
Alton Junction
How much does the temperature vary in your train room? Mine never goes below 60F or above 80F. I've soldered all the joints, and left the block gaps with no insulating joiner, just spiked them well. If you have your road in a space that's not heated/cooled such as a garage, it's likely to be more of a problem, but it hasn't been an issue for me.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority and CSX Intermodal. Interchange with CSX (CR)(NYC).
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
Rich and Canalligators,
I prefer to run a wire across the joint rather than solder the fishplate/rail joiner. I haven't had any problems with expansion with this layout as it is in a spare room that is lined. I live in Brisbane Australia which has a semi tropical climate, no snow, but it can get very hot. Thanks for your suggestions.
cheers
Alan
richhotrain Yeah, the frogs on Peco Insulfrogs are plastic, but the frogs on Electrofrogs are metal. I wouldn't solder every rail joiner on the layout because you need room for expansion and contraction. Adding feeders to every rail joiner is no guarantee. Every once in a while, a loco will come to a halt on my layout. I wind up sliding the rail joiner back and forth to re-establish power to a dead section of track. And, every once in a while, that rail joiner has a feeder wire attached to it. Rich
Rich. I would think the expansion and contraction issue could be handled by unsoldered joints somewhere else near the turnout. A section of straight track(s) nearest the turnout could be the designated "horizontal shock absorber", allowing the OP to solder a feeder to each leg of the turnout.
- Douglas
Doughless Rich. I would think the expansion and contraction issue could be handled by unsoldered joints somewhere else near the turnout. A section of straight track(s) nearest the turnout could be the designated "horizontal shock absorber", allowing the OP to solder a feeder to each leg of the turnout.
Ok. I read it quickly and thought you were referring to turnout, but you said layout.
Canalligators How much does the temperature vary in your train room? Mine never goes below 60F or above 80F. I've soldered all the joints, and left the block gaps with no insulating joiner, just spiked them well. If you have your road in a space that's not heated/cooled such as a garage, it's likely to be more of a problem, but it hasn't been an issue for me.
Most closing gaps outside of turnouts are due to reductions in ambient humidity, causing a commensurate shrinkage in the roadbed and supporting wooden dimensional lumber comprising most frameworks for layouts. That shrinkage across the grain as wood dries seasonally brings any rail ends at gaps closer together. Unless fixed hard in place by very strong adhesives, turnouts should not be affected by this.
Gonna somewhat highjack this thread for a turnout issue I bought a new rh #5 electrofrog turnout sealed in the box and installed it without issue but when I switch to the right hand turnout it shorts my DC track. It works good on mainline. I don't have any track attached to the turnout and I cannot see any reason why it would short. Any suggestions appreciated.
B1ueleaderI don't have any track attached to the turnout
Mike
Water Level Route B1ueleader I don't have any track attached to the turnout OK. You have to have some, so I'm guessing you have the track through the straight leg, but none on the diverging leg. I'll also assume that the switch is receiving power from trailing point side as well as the facing point side. In that case, if you didn't gap the frog rails, you'll get a short every time. Gap both frog rails your problem will go away. On electrofrogs, the points, closure rails, frog, and frog rails are all electrically connected. Throwing the switch allows power to travel from the straight side frog rail, through the frog, diverging closure rail, and diverging point to the opposite rail.
B1ueleader I don't have any track attached to the turnout
OK. You have to have some, so I'm guessing you have the track through the straight leg, but none on the diverging leg. I'll also assume that the switch is receiving power from trailing point side as well as the facing point side. In that case, if you didn't gap the frog rails, you'll get a short every time. Gap both frog rails your problem will go away. On electrofrogs, the points, closure rails, frog, and frog rails are all electrically connected. Throwing the switch allows power to travel from the straight side frog rail, through the frog, diverging closure rail, and diverging point to the opposite rail.
OK, will do. So why does Peco say it is ready to use on DC and does not mention using insulated joiners on those two rails at the frog?
B1ueleaderSo why does Peco say it is ready to use on DC and does not mention using insulated joiners on those two rails at the frog?
I believe that those gaps are shown on the instruction sheet included with the turnout.http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code%2083%20Electrofrog%20A4%20Eng.pdf
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I insulated the mainline frog and it did the trick. I pulled out my multimeter and tested it all out to see the electron flow. Thanks for the help from a lurker that finally decided to sign up.
cuyama B1ueleader So why does Peco say it is ready to use on DC and does not mention using insulated joiners on those two rails at the frog? I believe that those gaps are shown on the instruction sheet included with the turnout.http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code%2083%20Electrofrog%20A4%20Eng.pdf
B1ueleader So why does Peco say it is ready to use on DC and does not mention using insulated joiners on those two rails at the frog?
My understanding is that in DC, the inner frog rails are sometimes not gapped, leaving the divergent rails with the same polarity when the point rails are switched to the mainline. The idea there is to "park" locomotives on the siding so that they cannot move untintil the point rails are thrown divergent once again.