PRR8259 I myself do not have a lot of money to spend. Perhaps I can only buy one really good engine per year, and I don't need more freight cars, and my layout is covered in scenery, though could always do more detail there. I am forced to try to find the best possible value, to find the great looking model that will run well and reliably, and to try to do that for say $800. I was fortunate in the last year to get one for $800 and one for $850 (one a result of a new job, the other part of a bonus for bringing in a new employee); they are made every bit as well as some higher valued models from the same manufacturers, but just are on the low end of the price spectrum. I am willing to accept a "less popular" roadname if it's a great model--that helps with value shopping--I'm not tied to a specific roadname anymore. In this case I got two Soo Line steamers from the same collection, where the owner or somebody pro-weathered them (and weathering no matter how professionally done can and does lower value, as I found out when offering one for sale at a much higher price point where others of that exact model are selling). Keeping the one was the best choice I ever made...so I'm glad it didn't bring the big money. I have no shelf queens. Everything gets run, and I run trains maybe 5 to 7 hours per week. John
I myself do not have a lot of money to spend. Perhaps I can only buy one really good engine per year, and I don't need more freight cars, and my layout is covered in scenery, though could always do more detail there.
I am forced to try to find the best possible value, to find the great looking model that will run well and reliably, and to try to do that for say $800. I was fortunate in the last year to get one for $800 and one for $850 (one a result of a new job, the other part of a bonus for bringing in a new employee); they are made every bit as well as some higher valued models from the same manufacturers, but just are on the low end of the price spectrum. I am willing to accept a "less popular" roadname if it's a great model--that helps with value shopping--I'm not tied to a specific roadname anymore. In this case I got two Soo Line steamers from the same collection, where the owner or somebody pro-weathered them (and weathering no matter how professionally done can and does lower value, as I found out when offering one for sale at a much higher price point where others of that exact model are selling). Keeping the one was the best choice I ever made...so I'm glad it didn't bring the big money.
I have no shelf queens. Everything gets run, and I run trains maybe 5 to 7 hours per week.
John
John,
OK, you explained that you had some plastic/diecast locos that let you down, I get that.
And I'm not challenging your choices, just trying to understand.
I don't know how big your layout is, or how much rolling stock you have, or how many locos you have. I do know what you have mentioned in this thread, you are not modeling any specific railroad or railroads, and you are using KATO track.
And you may not know any more about me than what I have said in this thread, I don't know how long you have been on this forum or how much you have run across my posts.
But in the past, I managed a train department in a hobby shop, I literally grew up in the hobby and in the hobby business. Personally, I model to a very narrow set of goals and interests, but I understand and respect the wide diversity of this hobby, having spend thousands of hours behind the store counter.
Here is what I would like to try to understand - you are willing to spend $800 on a single loco, yet you say you don't have a lot of money to spend on this hobby? From what I read on this forum, about half your readers here think that is a great deal of money for one loco.
Yet you are using plastic roadbed sectional track? It simply does not seem to fit, but maybe that is just me?
I have lots of very well detailed locos that run great and pull fine, some are brass, many are not - none of them cost $800. Even the two brass locos on my wish list can easily be bought for $400 to $500, which is kind of my top price range for a loco.
AGAIN - DISCLAIMER - no sound or DCC here.
Admittedly, I am at that stage of modeling were I have most of the locos and rolling stock I want. And as I explained in my earlier post, I'm not a collector, I only buy models that fit the layout theme and have an operational purpose on the layout.
As I said before, I have about 130 locos, dollar cost average purchase price, less than $200 each, they all run nice - you do the math, I could afford $800 locos if I wanted to, but I see no point. I'm not an "art" collector, I'm a railroad modeler.
Some would say to me "why do I need 130 locos"? Good question. Actually, my layout is designed for both display running and crew operation. It fills a 1000 sq ft room and when complete will stage about 30 trains ready for operation. Many of those trains are 30-50 car freights that require 3-4 powered diesels or two steamers to actually pull them. 30 trains x 3 locos = 90 locos, add in some spares for power changes, switchers, RDC's and doodlebugs and you have a working 130 loco roster - to pull about 1000 freight freight cars and 200 passenger cars. So when I say 130 locos, that counts an ABBA all powered lash up as 4 locos......
I have been at this hobby since about 1967, but I will say most of my current loco fleet has been purchased in the last 20-25 years. And as I explained before, I'm a model builder, kit basher, etc - not a buy it and drive it hobbyist.
There are two other views that have been commented on in this thread that I find interesting. The first being the "fragile" nature of the plastic/diecast locos, and the other the idea of brass as an investment and how things like weathering effect that investment - a few thoughts:
First, I have never had a problem with model trains being fragile - they are after all 1/87 scale models. My trains don't derail, and I know how to pick them up, and, actually, I don't pick them up any more than necessary........so I don't seem to have all these problems with broken detail parts other complain about. If you have that problem, Lionel, Marklin, and MTH are all in the "durable toy train business" and can help you out...no offense to anyone, I just don't see were a 1/87 scale model needs to be safe for a 4 year old to handle - but my 4 year old grandson is already learning to handle models properly.....
Model trains as an investment - well maybe I am just foolish, but I have never bought ANY object of pleasure - boat, sports car, jet ski, collectable of any kind, with the notion that I coud get all my money back later. In fact, I consider such purchases like going out to eat - money spend, enjoyment recieved. Only difference with trains, enjoyment lasts for decades - or lifetime - because once I decide I want something, I seldom if ever get bored with it.
Actually, most of the brass locos I have, now have plastic tenders, different trailing trucks, and my private road lettering - I guess they won't bring much..........
I'm sure my model trains will only bring 10 cents on the dollar one day, because I have kit bashed, weathered, modified, rebuild, custom lettered and other wised "played" with them - I care not.
BUT - maybe that is why I can't justify spending $800 on one loco - because I can have more fun with one that only costs $200........
John, please enjoy the hobby in whatever way makes you happy, just understand it is a very diverse hobby, and peoples interests in it are motivated for widely different reasons, so what does it for you, is likely not even a factor for vast percentage of others with model trains.
Here are few of my $200 locos:
None have let me down mechanically, all are well detailed and smooth running, all have been modified in some way - because I like building, tinkering, creating....
Please share your thoughts, this has been a most interesting conversation.
Sheldon
Hi Sheldon--
Nice steamers Sheldon!
Since it seems you want a little better idea of where I'm coming from:
Well, I used Peco power routing turnouts and Shinohara turnouts in the past, all manual operation with Caboose Industries ground throws on a previous layout (I am not interested in under the table switch mounts--just never was). Even had the Peco double slip and three way turnouts, too, in order to get as much trackwork on my small but portable (I was in my 20's then and just starting out) layout. They were ok...
Also while in my 20's I had some train buddies I met while waiting on them at the train store, who became more or less lifelong friends, though some are indeed more eccentric than others. They got me into HO brass and literally said things like "just step up to the real models--use your plastic!"
When building my current layout I just opted to use Kato track. I had experienced issues with hand ballasted track in the past, wasn't happy with the look of it, at least not when done by myself, and was sold on the ease of construction. My very simple track plan is about 81 lineal feet in mainline length, partly on a shelf along the wall. The Kato track looks pretty good; they sell extra ballast for touch up of joints though I have yet to do that. Allowing some of the surrounding grass to encroach onto the ballast can help hide joints too.
At one point, with the young kids and a new house, I got out of brass completely for more than a decade, investing the sales proceeds into my wife's cherry kitchen. I actually (as some other folks today) believed the plastic had somewhat passed brass by, but learned I was wrong.
Now I'm in the process of switching my motive power over to all brass, so I only have 3 really good engines (one a brass hybrid) and that's it. For me it's about the neat detail and outstanding paint finish that you can only get with paint on metal, over quantity.
I mean no disrespect to Sheldon or anyone else by my comments here. It seems Sheldon and I are about as "opposite" as you could be on the model railroad spectrum. From other posts, I know he keeps nearly every train he's ever purchased, while I have often changed my mind, totally liquidated, and re-imagined my entire roster (purging both engines and cars if/when situation calls for it--like changing railroads and/or eras). I also don't alter steamers but am just fine with buying a great model of something that actually ran.
I do understand that the thought of "playing with" $1000 models, or even lesser valued models, makes some folks uncomfortable. I was that way in my 20's, but as I've gotten older it's not such a big deal.
I tell myself "look, you could be into muscle cars--the HO trains are much much cheaper"...to which my wife responds "yeah, but you can't drive a model train to work!" "Oh, yeah, well there's no way I'm getting a '69 Charger over our driveway apron without scraping something"...but I digress.
What's really the difference? One can tie up money in a big layout with a massive fleet of motive power and rolling stock...or one can opt for less but more highly detailed? Either way, we spend.
Hi all
Well I guess we have all tied up our personal version of big money on our layouts but unlike cars etc we can spend it in smaller bits than most hobbies.
Those with the skills can do wonderful things with a bit of PVA, shelac and corn flakes box keeping cost down.
I am older and still baulk at spending out the cost of a larger type plastic locomotive never mind the cost of a small brass one.
With my loco spend the most important thing is the locomotive is a reliable runner
if the paints wrong or the detail isn't quite right so be it that is easy in theory to fix
Fixing a bad runner is not always possible.
regards John
PRR8259 Hi Sheldon-- Nice steamers Sheldon! Since it seems you want a little better idea of where I'm coming from......
Since it seems you want a little better idea of where I'm coming from......
John, thank you for the kind words and thank you for the explanation.
And yes, in nearly 50 years I have only sold off about six pieces of model railroad equipment.......
And I only own about 12 pieces that are outside the theme of the layout.
My only personal objection to KATO track, or any sectional track, is the lack of easements and other "flowing" trackwork - like it does in real life.
Most of my smaller, earlier layouts were hand laid, turnouts and all. A skill I learned as a teen, as a member ofthe Severna Park Model Railroad Club, and as a result of working on my first layout, which was all TruScale milled wood roadbed track.
Never cared for PECO turnouts with their curved European frogs.......
On my current layout I use mostly Atlas code 83, I like the isolated metal frogs, which I power through the relay system I use to control the turnouts and DC power routing. I do use Walthers turnouts for some specials, and also build any specials I need.
Even the new simpler sectional version of my layout contains 100 turnouts and 600 or more feet of track.
As for modeling, I obviously freelance with my ATLANTIC CENTRAL, but like many of the early freelance pioneers, I protolance, wanting it to be as plausable and believable as possible. So the detailsand styles of the locomotives must fit into a family look, and be logical for my Mid Atlantic setting - there are no Big Boys lettered Atlantic Central.........
My ATLANTIC CENTRAL interchanges with the B&O, C&O, and Western Maryland. I'm not an OCD rivet counter any more, but I like the interchange road stuff to be close to correct..........
Operationally, I like both extremes, I'm very into CTC and signaling, but the layout must have good display value operation as well. I also insist on nearly prototype length trains - I model the 50's, my typical train is 40 cars
For me it is also about building models. Even on such a large layout, most of my rolling stock is from kits, all are built to some very specific operational standards
So again, thanks for the explaination, glad you are enjoying your trains. One day soon I'm going to break down and get one more brass loco - a WM K2 4-6-2 - easliy had for about $400.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNever cared for PECO turnouts with their curved European frogs.......
Sheldon, you may not be up to date on this, but Peco code 83 follows US practice.
Sir Madog ATLANTIC CENTRAL Never cared for PECO turnouts with their curved European frogs....... Sheldon, you may not be up to date on this, but Peco code 83 follows US practice.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Never cared for PECO turnouts with their curved European frogs.......
Ulrich, I am very aware of that, however since I use slow motion switch motors, the spring loaded throw bar also keeps me way - not mention the high price. Something about paying more for something I then have to modify for my purposes.........
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Never cared for PECO turnouts with their curved European frogs....... Sheldon
Ha ha, had to chuckle a bit at this comment:
I'm assuming you mean European model practice.
I do not get the opportunity to do American prototype track design in my work, but my understanding is that the frogs are in fact curved in American civil engineering practice, too. The reason that American model track practice typically involves straight frogs is that, years ago, it was somehow deemed "better" for model railroad performance to build the straight section in and/or some people think it somehow "simplifies" the track geometry. So I find your comment a little bit humorous...
Also you referenced not being able to have "easements" or spiral curves with Kato track, which is not completely true. Most model railroad easements are curved almost by eye, from a tangent offset a couple inches away from the circular radius. I don't know anyone who actually uses the complicated real world geometry to achieve a "true" spiral curve.
Armstrong, I believe, mentioned the solution in his track planning books: Use at least one section of a larger radius at the beginning of each and every horizontal curve when constructing a layout from sectional track. This helps to eliminate the sway factor of long equipment etc. With my Kato layout I did that religiously, and it definitely helped. One could even go two pieces of progressively longer radius track to make it even better.
So I have 28.75" radius easements into all the 26.38" circular curves. Every single articulated I ever put on the track has performed well (though there are brass ones out there that might not), and I recently purchased a brass pacific, from Howard, and checked out the same model on brasstrains.com. They said, in their video, that their example had issues negotiating their 36" test radius. My example of the exact same model (built by SK International) is pulling trains just fine on the Kato track, with no binding on curves or lifting of the front driver to the outside. Perhaps the model on the website did have issues...
The sectional track "easements" do help.
John, yes I meant model practice - I thought that was obviously implied.
Respectfully, MOST US practice prototype frogs are straight, and that is why US practice model frogs are generally straight.
I do actually plot continious easment curves for any change in direction less than 45 degrees just like they do on the prototype, I use correctly engineered templets for other easements, and my minimum mainline radius is 36", most are over 42".
Sheldon--
Not trying to be argumentative, but I've seen a whole lot of actual curved frogs in PA.
Yeah, sure, I'd love 36" radius curves, but my better half was absolutely not going to grant enough basement right-of-way for anything like that, under any circumstances, because the kids also need room to play.
I do regret not being able to operate the Athearn Genesis DDA40X Centennial, but have not had too many steamers that had to be passed up, though some.
The beauty of it all is it forces you to appreciate branchline operation with smaller engines and shorter trains. I once "had to have" the Y-6B's and their ilk but now can be just as happy with a smaller steam engine.
That said my holy grail is to someday own the W&R Rio Grande L-107 (USRA "Copy" 2-8-8-2), which might require scrapping the layout and rebuilding (at least the top if not all benchwork).
PRR8259 Sheldon-- Not trying to be argumentative, but I've seen a whole lot of actual curved frogs in PA. Yeah, sure, I'd love 36" radius curves, but my better half was absolutely not going to grant enough basement right-of-way for anything like that, under any circumstances, because the kids also need room to play. I do regret not being able to operate the Athearn Genesis DDA40X Centennial, but have not had too many steamers that had to be passed up, though some. The beauty of it all is it forces you to appreciate branchline operation with smaller engines and shorter trains. I once "had to have" the Y-6B's and their ilk but now can be just as happy with a smaller steam engine. That said my holy grail is to someday own the W&R Rio Grande L-107 (USRA "Copy" 2-8-8-2), which might require scrapping the layout and rebuilding (at least the top if not all benchwork). John
And there you have the dramatic difference:
My youngest child is 31......
My layout is in the second floor of my garage - 1000 sq foot room.......
My wife has the 4,000 sq ft house (that does not count the 1200 sq ft basement I also use for mostly my purposes......
Most of my locos are Mikados, Pacifics, 2-8-0's and Mountains, because that is what the railroads had the most of. And nearly half the articulated fleet are 2-6-6-2's, hardly bigger than a Mountain......
Even with 36" and larger curves, I restrict rigid wheel base length to a couple USRA 2-10-2's.......and I run mostly selectively compressed passenger cars for better appearance and operation.........
And yes, I know I'm not in step with most others in this hobby........
Well, I think model railroaders go through stages of the hobby much like stages of life. There's not a "wrong answer" in this discussion, only what some of us prefer to do.
My children are 9 and 14, and mostly my priorities are to get them the lessons they need to do what they want to do in life...I just hope I'm still alive when they are 30, lol.
Then I'll need to make catch up contributions to the 401k, if able to, once they are "out of the house"...to hopefully make up for what was not saved when I was younger. I'll likely need to work longer than some past generations for reasons beyond the discussion here.
I think that maybe if my roster were to reach say 6 nice locomotives, and say a maximum 30 freight cars (right now there are actually 15 Tangent, Kadee, P2K, and Intermountain, with a Bowser caboose, on the layout) that that would be all I'd really ever "need".
Once upon a time I had 75 freight cars, largely Athearn blue box, but that was a long time ago. They were traded away or given away to others just starting out in the hobby. Earlier this year I gave some "excess trains" away to an old friend who has very limited funds, who actually sold his trumpet to buy diabetes meds. I figured if he can use them or sell them to get something else he wants on his much more limited train budget, then so be it.
Hopefully the next house will be a modest ranch house with a good basement, but I still wouldn't need more than a modest layout. Maybe at that time I'd do a true point to point with generous curves to accommodate all brass models, idk.
See what happens!
You guys get me looking at brass and—before 'ya know it—there goes all my beer money!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LMB-Models-HO-Brass-LMB-2-8-2-Mikado-H-10B-Steam-Loco-Tender-/131755783993
My rationale? I don't see an NYC H-10 on the horizon from the "mass marketers" anytime soon and, well, I just love the gutsy look of these mikes with all that external piping and the overhanging Elesco feed water heater !
I've had experience with LMB (Leonard M. Blum owned the Hobby House, a modeler's institution here in Cleveland) and they are known to be built like tanks. I have several of his Hudsons and Niagaras.
[edit]
For a comparison, here's an H-10 for considerably more $$$ from Division Point.
http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/056413/HO-Brass-Model-Train-DP-NYC-P-LE-H-10b-2-8-2-Road-203-DP-2623-Black-Boiler
Simply showing the broad price spectrum in brass models.
Regards, Ed
Don't know if it makes you feel better or not, but Howard Zane just got a Canadian and NYC collection of brass in...there were some neat mikados there too...perhaps Key? All kinds of stuff. However, looks like you got a very nice deal on the LMB!
I know the LMB stuff is built like a tank and if you find one that you like, then great!
Of course NYC and its several subsidiaries obtained a majority of the light USRA original versions ever built, so as long as folks keep buying USRA mikes lettered NYC, you won't see an H10 anytime soon in plastic or hybrid. I concur with your assumption.
Enjoy the new acquisition and I hope it brings you happiness!
PRR8259Don't know if it makes you feel better or not, but Howard Zane just got a Canadian and NYC collection of brass in.
If I recall correctly, Mr. Zane prefers that buyers pick up their locos at his place in Columbia, Maryland. I really don't have the time to devote to a round-trip to MD.
Thanks for the heads-up, though.
Happy Modeling, Ed
When I decided to model the CPR and CNR steam era I had little choice but to go the brass route.
I have been watching various on-line auctions and e-bay checking for Canadian brass steam engines. I have mainly Overland, Van Hobbies (PFM) and Tenshodo form the 1980's as well as a few newer brass engines.
What a difference in price, the new brass engines are super expensive.
I have been frugal as well in what I am prepared to pay as well, but within a few years I now have copies of most Canadian steam engines for my layout.
It is not that hard to update the older brass electronics so that they run as well as a new engine.
If it had not been for the brass market I would have never been able to acuire most of my Canadian steamers as most of them were never released in any other form than brass. A few plastic models here and there but only a small portion of Canadian steam overall.
The best part of the brass market is that there seems to be a lot of older brass showing up now, the older generation selling off their collections mainly or in many cases their heirs.