the original thread got derailed. I'd like comments on the original intent
yougottawantaThis past Saturday we discussed "operations". From the discussion I learned : 1) the host should not plan on running RR. He should concentrate on problem solving, answering questions... 2) Helping to run a train helps one to learn what is they like and dont like which will help design their RR better 3) set up a call board with a list to for sign up for operations and a secondary list for operaters who may be able to fill in should some one in the first list has to cancel 4) isles are never wide enough 5 ) Make your RR handicap accessible for those that have physical disabilities 6) Make it fun - that is why we run model RR 7) THIS ONE is a BIG one - EXPECT things to get broken, damaged etc...people are more important than things 8) have some snacks for the guest I learned this and more about operations. ... I learned so much by speaking to the host about why he built certain thing in such and such a way. YGW
1) the host should not plan on running RR. He should concentrate on problem solving, answering questions...
2) Helping to run a train helps one to learn what is they like and dont like which will help design their RR better
3) set up a call board with a list to for sign up for operations and a secondary list for operaters who may be able to fill in should some one in the first list has to cancel
4) isles are never wide enough
5 ) Make your RR handicap accessible for those that have physical disabilities
6) Make it fun - that is why we run model RR
7) THIS ONE is a BIG one - EXPECT things to get broken, damaged etc...people are more important than things
8) have some snacks for the guest
I learned this and more about operations. ... I learned so much by speaking to the host about why he built certain thing in such and such a way.
YGW
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregci'm fortunate to be a member of the Pacific Southern which has been operating for a half century, which has given it a lot of time to work out the kinks. ... When ready, an engineer pick up a card from the Dispatcher specifying a train, it's location, stops (if passenger) and destination. The majority of the trains are not way freights requiring switching. So operation is realtively simple, drive a train from one yard to another. But there can be 7 trains operating at once. There are 80 car coal trains and 15 car passenger trains short 3 car RDCs and usually a way freight tieing up the main. Everyone operates the layouts, including the owner. When things go wrong, members help one another out and make things right. It's all part of the entertainment. This approach is obviously successful, but certainly not the only way to do things. Of your 8 items listed, I'd only agree with 6 (and maybe 4).
...
When ready, an engineer pick up a card from the Dispatcher specifying a train, it's location, stops (if passenger) and destination. The majority of the trains are not way freights requiring switching. So operation is realtively simple, drive a train from one yard to another. But there can be 7 trains operating at once. There are 80 car coal trains and 15 car passenger trains short 3 car RDCs and usually a way freight tieing up the main.
Everyone operates the layouts, including the owner. When things go wrong, members help one another out and make things right. It's all part of the entertainment.
This approach is obviously successful, but certainly not the only way to do things. Of your 8 items listed, I'd only agree with 6 (and maybe 4).
but my comments above are for a very mature club.
I think the original posting is for establishing operation at a new layout. But I think there's a difference if the operators are new to operation or experienced operators familiiar with one another.
One member of the Pacific Southern (PS) said he got a lot of help building his layout from members of the PS who later operated it. So many of the growing pains were avoided because the operators 1) helped build the layout, 2) were already experienced operators and 3) were familiar with one another.
So I think expectations will depend on the maturity of the layout as well as the operators.
I think it would interesting to hear from those who have had good/bad operating session experiences.
Greg,That list is pretty accurate except for these two things.
#5. You are visiting a home layout and therefore should be well aware it will not be handicap accessible.
#7. Never! You are operating as a guest and therefore extreme care must be taken. I would be highly upset if a visiting engineer broke something through carelessness or shoddy handling. All accidents is avoidable if care is taken.
Another thing remove those coats,jackets and sweaters..Those are accidents waiting to happen.
Above all thank your host upon leaving and if you have a home layout sincerely invite the host for a visit..
BTW.The isles may be wide enough for the owner and his regular operating crew but,not for a mob to stand about in.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I this as a list that is a mix of owner and operator concerns.
Operator takeaway.
Owner issue. Can be the same list, important takeaway is to have some more formal way to keep track of and get commitment from who is coming.
Owner issue. Design concept before the first board is put up.
Owner issues. Not really feasible when you start looking at it. Most layouts are in a home. Most people consider ideal height for a layout between about 45 and 55" off the floor. That is entirely too high for somebody in a wheel chair. To pass two wheel chairs in an aisle requires about 6 ft aisles. Nobody I know has aisles that wide.
I agree, but the definition of what is "fun" has a wide range of options. Some people love TT&TO, some people loathe it. Some people revel in detailed paperwork, some people are frustrated by it.
Owner and operator issue. I disagree, the expectation should NOT be that things get broken. The operators have an obligation to treat the layout and equipment with respect. A layout owner should not expect his equipment and layout to be torn up by the operators. That is different from an expectation that things will break. An owner has to be prepared for a coupler to come out, a feeder wire to come loose or something else to fail.
Owner issue. Nice to do.
The two biggest things a layout owner can do to have a successful op session is to have adequate documentation and a clear easy to follow vision and plan. If the plan is muddled or vague, it will not be as fun a time because the operators will struggle to execute the session. The other thing is to make sure things work mechanically and electrically.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
A small group of friends having been coming over weekly, when possible for twelve years. My layout is 17'by 12'6". So to the orginal points:
1) I run a train except on the rare occasion when there are seven people presnt, which makes 3 two man crews. This is optimal for space availible.
2) Maybe, maybe never build layout at home.
3)Ha Ha
4)Aisles are never wide enough unless operates are friends.
5) My house is not handicap acessible, especially the angled step to the trainroom. A club should be different, but as above.
6) Why would people come back otherwise???
7) Minor damage only. Major damage means operator not a MR.
8) We start about 7 pm, complete sequence about 9 pm. Tea and coffee is then served, no snacks.
Just my observations on my circomstances. Bigger layout, longer session will most likely change things, as would a round robin group.
Dave
One thing to expect is problems. There are at least 3 broad categories and the Pacific Southern has slips for reporting them so that they can be fixed before the next session:
Tony Koester has written that there's nothing better to identify trackwork problems than an operating session. So the above are inevitable and operators need to be prepared to handle them.
locos or rolling stock problems can easily be handled by removing them. Sometimes track problems, most often involving turnouts or slips can be fixed.
gregctrackwork - dead spots, spots where derailments tend to occur or problems w/ turnouts locomotives - stalling, not operating correctly, consists that that aren't synchronized rolling stock - coupler problems (not holding), derailments
That is highly unacceptable for me since I want nothing less then 100% trouble free operation. I will spend hours fussing over those problems and will fix them. My cars like a baseball player and gets three strikes and its off to the work bench. If it derails in the same location a stick pin marks the trouble area and it will be check. That's why I can switch cars all day without issues or take any of my cars to the club during a open house and get 8-10 hours of trouble free loop running every day of the open house or the week of the County fair..
That 100% trouble free operation is a easy goal to obtain..
I don’t usually operate with others but I found this list to be interesting so I will comment on my experiences when I do have group operation.
I have to be the dispatcher and yardmaster so the only trains I get to run are switchers in the yard.
True for everyone, even the lone wolves.
Decided based on who shows up.
If you have friends or family members with disabilities then you might consider this one.
This isn’t work, don’t make it be.
It isn’t a party until something gets broken but it better not be something that can’t be fixed. I’ve built that model once I’m sure I can build it again. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve glued sun visors back onto locomotives. But if you break stuff on purpose that is different!
Duh! Drinks for sure, chips or cookies are nice for those who get low blood sugar or hunger pains. Hamburgers on the grill are nice too. Might as well make a party out of it.
Remember to keep it fun and enjoy life!
j.................
davidmurray A small group of friends having been coming over weekly, when possible for twelve years. My layout is 17'by 12'6". So to the orginal points: 1) I run a train except on the rare occasion when there are seven people presnt, which makes 3 two man crews. This is optimal for space availible. 2) Maybe, maybe never build layout at home. 3)Ha Ha 4)Aisles are never wide enough unless operates are friends. 5) My house is not handicap acessible, especially the angled step to the trainroom. A club should be different, but as above. 6) Why would people come back otherwise??? 7) Minor damage only. Major damage means operator not a MR. 8) We start about 7 pm, complete sequence about 9 pm. Tea and coffee is then served, no snacks. Just my observations on my circomstances. Bigger layout, longer session will most likely change things, as would a round robin group. Dave
What if I don't like tea or coffee?
I quit a job once over a similar problem.....
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat if I don't like tea or coffee? I quit a job once over a similar problem.....
Water is also sometimes offered.
On the stuff getting broken, normal wear and tear is acceptable (things that would have broken no matter who is operating). Broken equipment due to mis-handling is less acceptable (0-5-0 switching without owners approval).
For people who enjoy operations, my hat is off to them.
I got into this hobby as a lone wolf, not because I am an introvert or anti-social but because I started out without any friends or acquaintances being in the hobby.
So, if I wanted to conduct operating sessions, I would have to search out people that I have never met and invite them over to my house. That ain't gonna happen, so I would have to do it the other way around and attend someone else's operating session but how is that gonna happen?
That all being the case, it seems like the only way to do it is to join a train club. I would be interested in hearing from someone who was a lone wolf and became a participant in operating sessions, especially without becoming a member of a train club. How exactly did you accomplish that?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainI would be interested in hearing from someone who was a lone wolf and became a participant in operating sessions, especially without becoming a member of a train club. How exactly did you accomplish that?
i saw a poster at the LHS, contacted them and attended a session. But I didn't go back. 2 years later I contacted them again starting in the spring. I figured if I could consistently participate thru the summer I could make the commitment to become a member and did. I feel very fortunate.
But another way might be by attending NMRA meetings, meeting people in the area and getting a group together.
gregc richhotrain I would be interested in hearing from someone who was a lone wolf and became a participant in operating sessions, especially without becoming a member of a train club. How exactly did you accomplish that? i saw a poster at the LHS, contacted them and attended a session. But I didn't go back.
richhotrain I would be interested in hearing from someone who was a lone wolf and became a participant in operating sessions, especially without becoming a member of a train club. How exactly did you accomplish that?
i saw a poster at the LHS, contacted them and attended a session. But I didn't go back.
BRAKIEThat 100% trouble free operation is a easy goal to obtain..
Brakie, I could work for you, or or you for me, or we could work together any day of the week. A lot of people think that metal and electrical problems are self healing. And I'm not just talking about model railroading.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
richhotrainSo, if I wanted to conduct operating sessions, I would have to search out people that I have never met and invite them over to my house.
Even on my small ISL (16" X12') I prefer to operate solo but,would offer a visiting engineer some throttle time with me as conductor.
I've been fortunate enough to operate on home layouts several times over the years but,never cared much for it.
richhotrainWhy did you not go back that first time around?
I think i was busy at work and at the same time busy working on an FAA glider license and often flying after work, weather permitting. I didn't think I could do both on the same night.
Now that i'm experienced, i find the operating sessions more of a diversion and relaxing that helps me at work.
BRAKIE richhotrain So, if I wanted to conduct operating sessions, I would have to search out people that I have never met and invite them over to my house. I've been fortunate enough to operate on home layouts several times over the years but,never cared much for it.
richhotrain So, if I wanted to conduct operating sessions, I would have to search out people that I have never met and invite them over to my house.
richhotrain For people who enjoy operations, my hat is off to them. I got into this hobby as a lone wolf, not because I am an introvert or anti-social but because I started out without any friends or acquaintances being in the hobby. So, if I wanted to conduct operating sessions, I would have to search out people that I have never met and invite them over to my house. That ain't gonna happen, so I would have to do it the other way around and attend someone else's operating session but how is that gonna happen? That all being the case, it seems like the only way to do it is to join a train club. I would be interested in hearing from someone who was a lone wolf and became a participant in operating sessions, especially without becoming a member of a train club. How exactly did you accomplish that? Rich
The operations SIG. It's what we specialize in.
http://www.opsig.org/
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
You prefer operating sessions on model railroad club layouts as opposed to operating sessions on home layouts?
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That is correct. Club operation on a point to point layout is pretty straight forward run train from Yard A or Staging to Yard B or Staging and vis versa or running loops on a standard loop layout..
Some of the home layout operations was rather complicated and way to many operating rules to realistic-we can use some very basic rules but,not a lot especially if there's a time clock... On one beautifully done ISL the waybills/car cards was way to bulky for handling plus a tethered walk around throttle. Other then that everything worked perfectly.
Rich and Larry:
I should have noted that I use wireless DC controls (3) and a out bound wayfreight has eight or nine cars.
Six trains are passenger, one ore, two thru freights, one staging to yards, and two wayfreights make up the day.
Passenger trains are told by traincard where to meet.
Basic rule is co-operation.
Your railroad, your rules.
While I have not been real active for about a year now, I am a "member" of a local "round robin" group here in my area. Unlike a "club" there are no officers, dues, by-laws, club layout, building, rent, and very little politics.
The group meets at a different persons home every week - for operating or building - at the choice of the host. Members volunteer to host meetings, not all have layouts, not all host meetings, not all want construction help from the group.
How do you get into the group? You get invited by one of the hosts to his layout night. If you hit it off with most everyone, you are invited to the next week, and so on. There are about 40 people on the Email list, the average meeting is 15-20 at most.
I met one of the members of this group over a decade ago, at the local hobby shop. We talked, he invited me to check out the group.
Since then I have hosted meetings, help design and build several layouts in the group, been a regular operator on most all of the active layouts, and gone on a number of layout tours and other field trips with various members. And made some good friends.
(side note - this is where I have gotten much DCC experiance despite using DC at home)
Every member has a different approach to the operating session thing, layouts vary in era, size, type of control, and degree of completion. Some nights are more bull sessions than operating - some are very focused.......some have CTC and signals, some are 1910 branch lines.......
Most of the layouts are moderately large, filling 50% to 80% of the average basement.
In the past several years I have needed to help watch my grandchildren, often on train night. And, the group has changed a little, and is not as much of a fit with my modeling interests as it once was - great guys, just not as much in common as in the past.
But I know I would be welcome at any session, I'm on the list, and when time allows.........The guys I have spoken with recently say everyone asks.......
I have also recently made a choice to spend what free time I do have on actual modeling, not on socializing. And since I am rebuilding my own layout, and prefer to not have help, I'm not a good candidate to be a host right now.
Rich, I don't know how to tell you to find like minded modelers in your area, but I suspect there are some. As much as I am personally not a NMRA event goer, that would be one way to meet others in your area.
Here in this area, we really are lucky, this is sort of Train/Model Train mecca, there are clubs, events, train shows, public open houses, steam tourist lines, museums with layouts, and even still a few good shops - all of which help connect all those in the hobby - if they choose to be connected......
In 46 years my interest in the social side of the hobby has varied, but I never had a problem finding nice people to share the hobby with when so inclined.
So find a few guys and start your own round robin........I bet one of them will invite you to their house first..........
Sheldon
richhotrainbecause I started out without any friends or acquaintances
All these years and nothing has changed
Hi Guys:
I need a couple of more operators for my home layout. Anyone interested in monday evening sessions in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada please private message me.
Interesting topic. I run trains with a number of guys once a month, on occasion twice a month. There are three of us who have layouts. Mine is the smallest, a 20’ x 20’ double deck HO layout. We meet the last Sunday of each month and sometimes the middle of the month on a Wednesday. I host 3-4 times a year. Whoever hosts serves soda/pop, water & chips, cookies. No dues, officers, politics. Some guys are retired railroad employees, a couple current engineers and the rest are non-railroad workers.
When we have sessions, one guy uses a sheet with cars to be switched. The other gentleman, and myself, don’t use car cards or switch lists. We have a number of trains to be run, depending on the number of guys that show. On my layout, the optimal amount of guys to run trains at once would be four, the yardmaster, and me as dispatcher. My aisles are 30” and one place 24”. A train is started at the freight yard, as well as a train from the lower level. Then trains are sent out as directed. This way no one is standing around. No car cards, switch lists. They take a train, go to the industry, yard, or on occasion, a thru train for guys who come over my place for the first time. They get someone shadowing them so they get a feel for the railroad. Sessions last 2 ½ to 3 hours.
At the end of the day, everyone has a good time. Besides, it’s my railroad and I can run it as I want to!
Neal