I've got a new 'out of the Blue Box' Athearn F7A
The headlight works but the wheels are 'frozen' - won't budge a mm. - even when trying to turn using a finger.
Any ideas?
If the motor should be irreparable - is it possible to free upthe wheels so it could be used as a 'dummy' at least?
Probably a speck of plastic in the gear train. Remove the trucks from the frame, and REMEMBER WHICH IS FRONT AND WHICH IS REAR which is important with these old Atheran products.
NOW, to the trucks roll freely? If not open them up and clean the gears well.
If they do run freely, the problem is with the motor. may be a speck of rust. Motor cleaner and lubricant will work here. Also check the contacts. Atheran uses mechanical contacts to the motor. Try running the motor on the bench directly. You may want to replace the mechanical-electrical connection with real wires.
That old stuff should work, and even if the motor is dead, a new one can be purchased from WNSL.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
OK - great - just have to now train my fingers - no pun on train.
But is it always possible to disengage motor (if not wanting to replace) so wheels are 'free?' (asking 'just in general')
First I would remove the shell, put it on track, and try it, so I could figure out why the wheels aren't turning. Does the motor buzz? does it seem like the trucks want to move? Athearns are a great start for learning how a scale loco works. If the parts / exploded view sheet is in the box, it shows you all the parts and how they work together. If I couldn't see anything wrong, I would pop the worm gear housing of each truck, remove the drive shafts, and see if the motor works.
If this was from a hobby shop, I'd probably stop there, put it back together, and take it back. If it's from a private sale, eBay, etc., I'd keep going until I figured out what is wrong.
Like I said, Athearn "blue box" locos are pretty basic and a good start to learning about, and maintaining a model electric loco.
Mike.
My You Tube
You can also try tuning the motor armature with your fingers. Could be the brushes are stuck to the commutator.
South Penn
Take off the shell, check to see if the u joints are locked up. This can happen if the motor is loose and not properly seated because it changes the angle of the driveshaft too much. Remove the driveshafts and see the motor will turn. If the motor spins when it is not hooked up to anything then the problem is in the drivetrain, u joints, gears, axels or wheels.
Really fine to get all these detailed responses which appear to be potentially effective.
May I ask the general question - IF a motor is defective - can the wheels be disengaged so they run freely -- eg as a 'dummy?'
robwdsMay I ask the general question - IF a motor is defective - can the wheels be disengaged so they run freely -- eg as a 'dummy?'
Remove the motor, drive shafts and worm gear on top of both trucks, will turn freely with a little friction, caused by the gears, but will roll.
Take Care!
Frank
You can remove the motor and hook it up directly to a power pack and see if it spins OK. If it does, it's something else like the gears etc. If the motor's bad, replacement ones better than the original are readily available that will pretty much drop in place - several companies make replacement motors for Athearn diesels.
Yes, remove the drive shafts, and the motor. If needed or wanted, you can still use the metal wheels and power trucks to power any lighting you may want. The dummies from the factory have plastic wheels, and gearless trucks. You could also use the trucks on another "project" loco you may want to build.
Responding to your question on using it as an unpowered "dummy" unit. I did the "quote thing" wrong. Just what Frank said.
Check the bronze axle bushings. They are the square bronze blocks on each axle behind the wheel. The square bushing rides in a slot in the metal plate. Sometimes this bronze bushing gets dislodged from the slot and wedged inside the metal plate causing the wheel / axle to bind up.
Make sure each bushing is sitting free in each slot.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
robwds:
When you say that this is a 'new' engine is it actually a recent production or is it unused older stock?
A couple of points:
First, you cannot rotate the wheels themselves with the motor connected. The gear ratios are too high to permit that.
Second, you can rotate the flywheels by hand once you have the shell off. They should turn very easily and smoothly and the wheels will turn as you rotate the flywheels.
If they turn smoothly then that suggests a break in the electrical connections. That doesn't necessarily mean a broken wire, but more likely in the case of the Athearn engines it means that electricity is not flowing through one or more of the mechanical connections, either because something is out of place or the connections are oxidized. If you have a meter, you can probe the locomotive to see what's connected and what isn't. You could also apply power momentarily to see if there is any movement from the motor or if it buzzes.
If it is an older product and the flywheels are stiff then the usual cause is solidified grease in the trucks. You could also have junk in the gears (that can happen regardless of the age of the locomotive) or possibly a seized motor. The latter is not a common problem. It happens but if the locomotive is 'new' and unused it is highly unlikely that the motor would be seized so badly that it would not turn at all.
Regardless of the cause of the problem, if you want a reliable runner, you should do a couple of things:
One is to wire the trucks directly to the motor. 30 gauge decoder wire is excellent for doing this. TCS sells a variety of wire for decent prices. It's worth the small investment. To keep your wiring easy to follow, use red for the right rail and black for the left. If you are installing a decoder you will be wiring the trucks anyhow.
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Products/Supplies/Wire/Wire.htm
The other thing you should do is disassemble the trucks, clean them thoroughly with alcohol and then lubricate them with proper grease and oil. Grease is used on the gears and oil is used on the bearings. Both the grease and oil must be compatible with plastics. Labelle has good products designed specifically for the purpose. Personally I use Nano Oil. It is a bit of an investment, however it is really amazing in how well it makes things run:
http://labelle-lubricants.com/
http://nano-oil.com/
Lubricate the universal joints and the motor bearings too, but do not lubricate the motor brushes. Use the grease/oil sparingly!
I hope this hasn't been too long winded. I tend to do that.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave: These are brand new Blue Boxes that were purchased in the 80's from Walthers. (So far as I know Blue Box production was stopped in 2009 - at the same time they moved all production to China.)
Being that 'old' - the F7 has more than likely succumbed to a lube problem. So will go after that possibility first.
All these answers together make a great manual for anyone trying to fix broken or imoperative Athearns - in general. There really is a very helpful community here!
I am in the process of 'making' a detailed dummy B unit and bought a set of the newer wheel sets with bearings and replaced the dummy ones (plastic wheels with a plastic sleeve). Now the dummy rolls effortlessly (almost!) and I can use the metal wheels for power pickup for a possible sound decoder. Just make sure you remove the worm gear on the top of each truck as that is what keeps the wheels from rolling without the motor attached.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
hon30critterFirst, you cannot rotate the wheels themselves with the motor connected. The gear ratios are too high to permit that.
Actually it is because the worm amd worm wheel lock up.
maxman and Bob:
You are absolutely correct. The worm 'gear' has to be removed before the truck will roll freely. I should have explained it in more detail but I was trying to keep things short, or rather 'shorter'. I went on long enough as it was.
It is not clear what vintage Athearn F7 you have. It could be an early Genesis model. The boxes for those were mostly blue with some yellow.
having said that the mechanics for the early models were very similar. As has been indicated, you need to take off the shell. For the old blue box engines, the shell has slots on the side and the chassis has tabs that fit in the slots. By lightly spreading the shell, the tabs come free and the shell will lift off. The pilot coupler will have to be slipped out of the pilot opening.
On later models the couplers are in plastic pockets that screw on to secure the chassis to the shell. There are plastic inserts that fit in the port holes and hold the shell snugly to the drive, more in mixing the noose. Often, you have to lightly pry this shell off. It needs it lift off vertically.
once the shell is removed, the first thing to do is rotate the flywheels. They should rotate freely with very little resistance. The resistance should be constant, not pulsing. If it turns freely, then the mechanics of the drive are not the problem. There are reasons you might want to redo the lubrication, but a free turning drive line means your problem is electrical.
If it is an older model, they used a metal strap as the connection from the top of the motor to the truck towers. This could be loose or missing and the light would work.
The newer models will have wires connecting the motor top clip to the right side of the truck. Only one connection is required, so it is unlikely the problem, but check to be sure the connection is good.
The most likely problem is the connection between the motor bottom clip and the chassis. This is caused by the failure of the rubbery plastic motor mounts. With time and/or heat these become brittle and crack. The connection between the chassis and the bottom clip is lost so the motor does not see a voltage.
The later models have wires connecting the bottom clip either to the chassis or the left side of the trucks. Again, only one connection is require, so the likelihood is low, but check the connections.
If the motor mounts have failed, you need to replace them. Athearn now makes and offers screw type plastic motor mounts. Those are the ones to get to replace the older broken ones.
if the earlier flywheel turn test showed noticable resistance. Then the problem is mechanical. The most likely is a seized bearing. The most common is the truck tower bearings. Less likely is the truck bearings next to the wheels. Still a possibility.
Another possibility is the axle gears. The design for these is poor. When P2K used it they had severe cracking issues. It is a cyclic fatigue problem with the design. Living in an atmosphere where the temperature varies 20 or 30 Degrees is enough to crack the axle. 80 % of the BB units I work on have at least one cracked axle. If any wheel can be easily rotated with the drive in place, the you have a cracaked axle. The bits of plastic can cause the bind, or the bearing will get dislodged again causing a bind.
Just like the electrical issues, you need to isolate and fix the mechanical binding issue. Athearn motors in my tests produce as much torque as any you can buy, but it any resistance will be a problem for the motor.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
The Athearns I have were purchased from Walthers 'about 35 years' ago - and thus possibly a rather supreme example of some kind of irony - as they are defintely BEFORE 'Genesis!'
They are 'mint' - boxes never opened. All the writing here has been extremely valuable as no doubt other 'problems' may well be found - among FP45s, PA1s, SD9s, etc. - and the various procedures here will no doubt apply.
Given that they haven't been used since they were boxed in the factory, you probably have a case of the grease in the gear towers is now a solid mass. Clean it out and relubing will probably yield a working locomotive.
hon30critter maxman and Bob: You are absolutely correct. The worm 'gear' has to be removed before the truck will roll freely. I should have explained it in more detail but I was trying to keep things short, or rather 'shorter'. I went on long enough as it was. Dave
Although it sounds like the OP will find a solution and not need to make it a dummy?
"Although it sounds like the OP will find a solution and not need to make it a dummy?" Well - good news! - there were a number of procedures which pointed to lubrication having become inoperative. So I thought I'd try one 'brute force' measure. I had a piece of rough lumber - and rolled the F7 over it a number of times - back and forth - pressing down 'moderately' - the wheels began to move! I then checked with leads from the xformer - and voilä - succès! The posts to this question have now formed a small manual with regard to Blue Box engine details and remedies. I am thankful for that as have a number of other engines and no doubt these procedures will be more than useful. I hope other fans will also find this thread who might have problems. I suppose it will be advised that I do some kind of cleaning and lubing in spite of it now operating. Are there any good specific instructions for such (probably need to be aimed at Athearns)? Any recommended lube products?
It probably wouldn't hurt to clean out and re-lube the engine, although once it's running and things warm up it probably will be "OK".
BTW it's unclear - did you make the wheels roll on the board while still attached to the motor / drive train, or had you removed the trucks? I was going to suggest, if you remove the body, you can reach in and turn the drive train / motor and make it all spin.
Thanks
I can admit to simple expediency - didn't touch any internals - just rolled it. From the other posts, it didn't seem I would damage anything - the pressure downward was moderate.
robwds Thanks I can admit to simple expediency - didn't touch any internals - just rolled it. From the other posts, it didn't seem I would damage anything - the pressure downward was moderate.
If you didn't remove the worm gear to "roll it", you weren't actually rolling the gear train, but probably spinning the axles inside the axle gears !
"If you didn't remove the worm gear to "roll it", you weren't actually rolling the gear train, but probably spinning the axles inside the axle gears !"
But after doing that - it worked.
So it would seem that just the wheels/axles were gunked - ?
I have seen the metal truck side plates that are inboard of the wheel sets, that hold the bearings, actual rust stick to the back of the sintered iron wheel sets, which also can rust from moisture in the air. Sitting in the box unused for so many years, a complete tear down, new plastic compatiable grease in the trucks, and proper machine oil for all bearings is in order. No different than waking up a Lionel train that has been sleeping in the closet, attic or storage unit for decades. I am doing a full service on an All Nation F7 that is even older than your Athearn, its just a tad bigger being a 2 rail O scale engine. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome