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First Impressions - BLI Union Pacific 9000 series Brass Hybrid 4-12-2

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Posted by De Luxe on Friday, April 3, 2015 8:19 PM

dinwitty
you can configure the cab light, default if turns off about 5 mph or whatever.

I´m sorry but I didn´t understand that really. Is it possible to turn it on and off whenever you want or not?

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Posted by dinwitty on Friday, April 3, 2015 11:50 PM
set cv 43 to 60, now press function 10, you can now turn the cab light on/off at will (changing F10) (F0 to F28 is CV's 33 to 61)
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Posted by hdtvnut on Monday, April 6, 2015 12:57 AM

Dinwitty:

I can see the front shell screw, but it looks like the entire front end must be removed to get to it.  I see two wings that appear to snap in place, but there seems to have been glue used as well.  Let me know what you find out.

Hal

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Posted by dinwitty on Monday, April 6, 2015 5:13 PM
The pilot truck has one screw holding it, remember the curved hole position, it should loop to the outside of the engine, simply remove it. There are 2 small screws on the cab rear low, simply remove them. There is nothing glued to remove, but its possible the shell might be a tight fit, but mine came right off. Just lift the front shell up slightly then forward a little up and out. I got mine home the night I bought it, some quick checks, (I already knew the shell screws from other owners so I knew where to look) The shell mount is the same style my other brass engines do, boiler mount screw at the cylinders, and the rear 2 screws. Thats it. The 2 rear screws face towards the tender low below the cab area. They have a bit more detail here but the concept is still the same.
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Posted by dinwitty on Monday, April 6, 2015 7:28 PM
my baddee, still same concept, I just opened my engine to get flywheel counts, the pilot truck uses a double screw deal, phillips screwdiver to remove the pilot truck reveals the next screw which also holds the pilot truck, think screw with hole drilled and tapped to hold another screw, but it has no wide head. Its notched so a flat blade screwdriver will insert, unscrew and your there. came right off again.
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Posted by dinwitty on Monday, April 6, 2015 8:28 PM
I have 24 flywheel turns per driver revolution, 24-1, if you can tap the flywheel detector in another decoder, divide it by 4. Note on the pilot truck, watch the spring, mine has one end spun flat while the other end the spring is abrubtly cut. I had the flat side to the pilot truck and it would not track correctly, so lay the flat side to the cylinder side, there is a washer that lies between the spring and the pilot truck, once I corrected that its fine. If yours is double flat, lucky joo!! If both ends are cut I would look for another washer like the one it uses and put it on the other side of the spring.
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Posted by hdtvnut on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 12:34 AM

Thanks for disassembly info; I'll probably take another stab at it.

Perhaps then, the Paragon 2 can't divide by four.  My Hudson also has a 24:1 ratio, so it must be able to divide by six.  I think here it is dividing by three, producing a rate which should be eight (seemed a little slower).  The cadence (emphasized chuff) is set at every third beat, a reasonable sound, but just looks wrong not being synced.

The Loksound might work, since it can be set to divide by four.  However, this would not be usable if it then has a cadence fixed at every fourth beat.  The cadence would have to be adjustable to the third or sixth beat, or none (even chuff sound).  The 4.0 is pretty amazing, so guess I'll look for the tech manual online, or anyone knowledgable please chime in.

Hal

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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, April 7, 2015 7:51 AM
loksound has some 3 cylinder european engines, their sound samples show a 3 beat cadence, so I think there's the possibility, I havent dug into it yet hard. I won't change my engine for a while, I may stick to the timer for a bit, but I'll poke around.
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Posted by hdtvnut on Wednesday, April 8, 2015 4:55 PM

In studying p. 24 of the tech ref manual for the 4.0, it seems unclear what increasing CV 58 does; the wording is bad.  Possibly with a value of 4 (or something), the decoder will give a chuff for every four input hits, but before I spend the money, I will ask some more questions, maybe on the yahoo group, and of the US rep.

A Hall Effect sensor and six magnets might be able to do the six chuffs with the right irregular pattern, if anybody knows what that is, or if a clear recording exists.

Hal

 

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Posted by hdtvnut on Friday, April 10, 2015 5:21 PM

Dinwitty, I have bad news and good news.  The gear ratio is not 24:1; it is 22:1.  I verified this by repeated measurements.  This explains BLI's inability to use their flywheel magnet/reed switch setup to generate a sync chuff.  Dividing 22 by 3 gives 7.33, the chuffs/rev rate actually being produced.  Dividing by 4 wouldn't be much better: 5.5 chuffs/rev.  There is no fix except changing the gears.

The good news: we can forget about the BLI sensor and Paragon 2.  There is tons of room on top of the frame, next to several drivers, to mount a Hall Effect sensor after a cast spring assembly (which can't be seen) is removed.  I ordered some TLE4905's (referred to in the Loksound manual) from Digi-Key for about $1.20.

The magnets I got earlier from KJ Magnetics.  They were their smallest disk shaped items.  Epoxying these to the inside of a driver with the right spacing to produce the correct irregular sound pattern should be fairly easy IF one can get that info.  What I would like is to know the chuff timing in terms of degrees of a circle.  Anybody?

There likely will have to be some washers added to the chosen driver between the wheels and frame, to limit sideplay, so the sensor will work during both right and left turns.  This should not create a conflict if your minimum radius is decent; the second and fifth drivers seem to have much more sideplay than needed.  Should know by next weekend. 

The decoder will need to do 1:1 chuffs, and I don't know if a Paragon 2 can have its counter bypassed.  Only that it can divide by 6 or 3, since I have engines with both.  I'll see if I can find out from BLI.  Any other decoder with a cam input should work.

Hal

 

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Friday, April 10, 2015 7:22 PM

De Luxe
 
dinwitty
you can configure the cab light, default if turns off about 5 mph or whatever.

 

I´m sorry but I didn´t understand that really. Is it possible to turn it on and off whenever you want or not?

 

You can turn the cab light off with that CV 208 being a 0 Zero.  Regardless of what the book states, it is a Zero off and any small number will turn it off when the loco starts up.  A 255 will keep the light on all of the time.  I could not switch it on and off with a function, but maybe someone else could help with that.

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Posted by De Luxe on Friday, April 10, 2015 8:01 PM

Interesting info. Changing the CV everytime you decide to run the engine with cab light on or off all the time sounds pretty complex and time wasting. I totally dislike that policy of having the engines programmed in this way that the cab light automatically turns on while standing and off while running. If this can´t be turned on and off whenever I want, then I´ll never gonna purchase it for sure.

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Posted by dinwitty on Friday, April 10, 2015 8:37 PM
I'll repeat my post. set cv 43 to 60, now press function 10, you can now turn the cab light on/off at will (changing F10) (F0 to F28 is CV's 33 to 61) don't judge the engine just by the cab light, its an excellent engine. At powerup it will do the auto on/off, but once you hit the function button, it will be on/off when you want. I won't be this fidgety about a cab light. 360 degrees/6 is 60 degrees, tweaking 2 magnets for the 3rd cylinder. I think using the BEMF is the better idea, you still get the equivelent of the hall sensor, its just the motor getting you a count. Driver magnets gets you perfect however. Us a blind driver as it does not need sideplay.
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Posted by UP 4-12-2 on Friday, April 10, 2015 10:26 PM

I was one of those who had placed an initial order and then later cancelled...kinda wish I'd kept the order, but it wouldn't do my curves anyway.  Best Regards--John

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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Saturday, April 11, 2015 9:33 AM

UP 4-12-2

I was one of those who had placed an initial order and then later cancelled...kinda wish I'd kept the order, but it wouldn't do my curves anyway.  Best Regards--John

 

They are sold out at BLI and most places.

The comparison below shows the two styles of cabs on the BLI 4-12-2

 

 
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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Saturday, April 11, 2015 9:39 AM

De Luxe

Interesting info. Changing the CV everytime you decide to run the engine with cab light on or off all the time sounds pretty complex and time wasting. I totally dislike that policy of having the engines programmed in this way that the cab light automatically turns on while standing and off while running. If this can´t be turned on and off whenever I want, then I´ll never gonna purchase it for sure.

 

The programming for the cab light is toy like for sure.   I turned it off all of the time since steam cab lighting was very dim.  If you cover the led in the cab to dim the light to a soft glow, then it can be turned on all of the time and not stand out and look normal.  The change of the CV to allow F10 is possible also and will allow you to turn it on and off.  For my money, I will cover over the led to allow just a tad of light, like most steam locos really looked.

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Posted by hdtvnut on Monday, April 13, 2015 4:00 AM

My project to put six magnets on driver#3-left worked out fine, but the TLE4905 Hall Effect sensor was not sensitive enough.  A small reed switch worked much better.  Now I get two chuffs per driver rev, so I must either change decoders, or find a way to get the Paragon 2 to put out a chuff for each input (no divide by three).  Does anybody know how the P2 can be made to do this?

Hal

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Posted by dinwitty on Monday, April 13, 2015 11:53 AM
I would go ahead and change decoders, loksound sounds like a best idea.
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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 12:22 AM
I rechecked the flywheel timing, its 22/1. so yeh. I am not seeing how to get more chufs there, so a decoder change looks like it, checked the manual.
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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 11:38 PM
I have this gurgling idea, NWSL has a bunch of gears, they have a 22 and 24 tooth gear. This idea does not change the engine's gearing. You would mount this beyond the motor/flywheel somewheres so the 22 gear is inline with motor, then it drives the 24 tooth. You put a magnet on the 24 tooth gear somehow. Tada, fixed.
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Posted by selector on Tuesday, April 14, 2015 11:50 PM

Back to tractive performance: I was playing with the locomotive this afternoon and decided to test it out with a long train, for me.  I have never towed more than 19 cars with any of my locomotives mainly because previously my grades were in the 3% range and I knew to keep the consists relatively light...18 cars and a caboose were all I ever towed with the all-metal PCM 2-8-8-2.

I attached 24 cars and a caboose.  All of them were near-NMRA weight, some lighter, some heavier, and some have a bit of rolling resistance...nothing silly.  The 4-12-2 took it all up the 2.4% main like nobody's business.  That thing's a champ!!  I figure those flanged driver axles are doing almost all of the tractive effort, and it's a hefty locomotive.  My guess is that it might take near 30 cars to make it begin to slip.  I intend to find out.

More to follow...

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Posted by dinwitty on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 6:15 PM
the rear drivers have traction tires.
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Posted by selector on Wednesday, April 15, 2015 7:51 PM

...and they tend to nearly double the tractive effort of the locomotive in my experience.  The Bull Frog Snot goop does, anyway, as evinced by my BLI Niagara's improved effort on my previous layout's 3.4% grades.

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Posted by hdtvnut on Saturday, May 9, 2015 5:13 AM

I did change to a TCS Wow after going over the Paragon 2 board and not finding a spot to process a 1:1 pulse/chuff.  I found a 4-12-2 recording on Amazon and used it to set up the driver magnets for a similar 3-3 sound, and also to pick a Wow whistle (reconstucted ATSF) which is almost identical.  A red washer was added to limit sideplay of the driver set.

I set up the red light and cab light on separate throttle functions, and removed the smoke generator. 

Hal

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Posted by dinwitty on Sunday, May 10, 2015 12:05 AM
wow has a way to set a 3 chuff? I have one engine with a wow in it, I could test it. and the whistle
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Posted by hdtvnut on Sunday, May 10, 2015 3:11 AM

Dinwitty, I am just generating a single chuff per pulse.  The pulses are coming from six driver magnets, and I was able to position the magnets to give an irregular rhythm, like 123 123.  Nothing to do with the decoder.

Have been running the loco tonight, and trying to decide whether it sounds enough like the recordings I found.  I could always remove the magnets and try again.   If someone knew what the exact angles for the chuffs were, it would help.

Hal

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Posted by dinwitty on Tuesday, May 12, 2015 12:13 AM
what I have read is if the engine is perfectly tuned you get a perfect 60 degree chuffing, but when they are worn in you start getting its syncopation, so I wouldn't be so worried about exactness, even if the cylinder is angled off 9 mdegrees or whatever you could manage perfect tuning with proper valve gear. I would set 2 magnets on 60 degrees then rough fit the 3rd a bit of an angle off that.

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