New Model Railroader with Questions

[CBT]

Hello

 

We are new to model railroading.  We have a 4x8 table that we have started to prepare for our newly purchased HO setup.  We purchased a Bachmann 1225 Pere Marquette (item no. 50901) DCC equipped steam engine.  We also purchased a Kato unitrack WGH Plan Set (3-103) and also a Kato power pack (221014).  We put together the track and tested out the train.  The train does not seem to go very fast and you have to rotate the power knob over half way before the train moves, is this normal?  Are there any compatibility issues that we should be aware of between the Bachmann train and the Kato power supply and track?  Thanks for any input.  We are looking forward to building our setup.

[steemtrayn]

The loco will run better with a DCC controller. With a DC powerpack, you have to crank up the power just to activate the sound in the loco. I would suggest exchanging the berkshire for an engine that is a little smaller (It 'll look better on those tight curves) and that runs on straight DC. Or, maybe you could override the decoder with a dummy plug (another discussion altogether).

[DSchmitt]

CBT

The train does not seem to go very fast and you have to rotate the power knob over half way before the train moves, is this normal?  Are there any compatibility issues that we should be aware of between the Bachmann train and the Kato power supply and track? 

You are running a DCC equipped locomotive on DC.  The locomotive you have is designed to run on either DCC or DC.  There is no compatability issue.  

However from  http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?77218-Can-a-DCC-loco-run-on-DC

 

1. "The short answer is yes a correctly programmed DCC Locomotive will run on a DC track. Now the long part. Operation of decoder installed locomotives on a DC track is not very good. The reason is the voltage for the track has to be increased to a level that will allow the Decoder to operate so in my expirence there is virtualy no slow speed performance and a lot more noise than usual...... 
   Steve" 

   ---------------The answer quoted is about 9 years old. Current decoders  like in your loco will run DC or DCC without changing settings. In general, a DCC equipped loco requires higher voltage setting to run on DC  so it takes a higher throttle setting to start and will run slower at any setting than a straight DC loco.   

 

[IRONROOSTER]

While I am not familiar with your setup, I have run Bachmann dual mode decoder locomotives with DC.  I have noticed that the locomotive does not move immediately.  I believe this is a characteristic of Bachmann's dual decoder (runs on DCC or DC).

With the exception of Marklin trains/tracks/power packs, any HO trains should run on any HO track with any HO power pack.  Assuming you're in the U.S. with 120v power, make sure that your Kato power pack is set for 120v and not 220v.  (It will work on the 220 setting with 120v, but you get only half the volts).

Good luck

Paul

[hornblower]

First, welcome to the hobby!

You will find a plethora of differing opinions on this forum but most all are valid for a given situation.  To start, you should first decide whether you want to operate your layout using either Direct Current (DC) or Digital Command Control (DCC).  The biggest difference between the two operating systems is that DC runs the track while DCC runs the locomotives.  Having built layouts using both operating systems, I offer the following observations and opinions.

A DC power pack varies the voltage and/or polarity between the track rails to change the speed and direction of a locomotive.  On a simple loop of track, all trains placed on the track will travel in the same direction although the speeds of each loco can vary depending on the motor sensitivity and gearing.  It is possible to lash up multiple locomotives with similar speed performance.  It is also possible to run multiple trains independently on the same track although this requires the track to be cut up into electrically isolated blocks, special wiring with multiple electrical switches and multiple power packs.  This system is known as DC Cab Control and it will typically run one train per power pack in the system. Atlas offers a ready-made system that includes everything you would need for a basic two power pack Cab Control system.  As noted in previous responses to your post, most locomotives equipped with a dual-mode DCC decoder will run on a DC system.  However, sound equipped DCC locomotives typically require about 6 to 7 volts of power just to start up the sound amplifier. Thus, the train will not move until the power pack throttle is turned past half of its travel.  This is normal and nothing is wrong!  Its just something you need to get used to running DCC locos on DC.  Non-decoder equipped locos will operate as expected over the full throttle range although you could not expect to run DCC and DC locos together in a consist.  Operating sophistication is generally as good as the sophistication of the power pack(s) used although the trains need to be in motion before other features such as sound and headlights will operate.

DCC provides a continuous steady voltage across the track rails and digital throttles tell each DCC decoder equipped locomotive what to do with that voltage.  Because each locomotive responds only when specifically addressed by a digital throttle, multiple trains can be operated in any direction and speed on a single section of track without the need for isolated track blocks or electrical switches.  Because full voltage is available to the track at all times, it is possible to operate headlights, locomotive sounds and other features without the locomotive in motion.  It is very easy to lash together multiple locomotives and most locomotives can be electronically speed matched to run with other locomotives.  Probably the most difficult aspect of DCC is the need to install decoders in locos not already so equipped.  However, a new model railroader need only deal with this if he/she buys locos not already equipped with DCC decoders.  

Although there definitely are reliable means to achieve superior operation using a DC system, similar superior operation is generally easier to obtain using DCC. Yes, DCC is generally more expensive than a basic cab control DC system although a sophisticated multi-cab DC system can get pretty expensive, too. Wiring requirements for the two systems differ greatly.  DC can get away with smaller gauge wire (cheaper) but you will need a lot of it, plus you need to buy electrical switches to connect each block of track to the desired power pack. Because DCC is capable of running a lot of trains simltaneously, the potential current draw will require heavier gauge wire but a lot less of it and the wiring is often simpler to understand.  On the other hand, DCC equipped locos are about 50% more expensive than their DC-only counterparts.

Having said all this, what do I currently use?  No contest -- DCC!!!  Trying to run two trains independently on my previous small layouts using DC Cab Control usually became the "Dance of the Toggle Switches."  You spend more time operating electrical switches than you do enjoying your trains.  There is no dance with DCC.  You spend almost all of your time operating your trains.  Almost all? Well, you do have to operate turnouts to route your trains where you want them to go but you have to do that with DC as well.

Read all you can about both systems before you choose an operating system. Yes, a basic two power pack DC Cab Control on a small layout will cost far less than even a basic starter DCC system.  However, I think the operating advantages of DCC far outweigh the extra cost, especially on a small layout. 

 

 

[ricktrains4824]

Any sound equipped locomotive will take a higher voltage to start when running on straight DC. It's not just brand of locomotive, or brand of decoder, if it has sound, it requires more power to start that up, and DCC/Sound is made so that the sound starts up before the loco will move on DC. If you had a DCC system, or a non-sound loco, you would not notice that large of a delay. 

And, 4X8 WGH Plan, is not that bad of a choice, actually pretty good operational wise, you have main line style running in the continuous loop, but also switching moves possible. Nice start. And, also, not a bad choice in motive power, but you may want to consider one without sound, or a starter DCC system, as you will then have better speed control. If you go DCC system route, you will also get control of the other sounds that come standard, such as bell and whistle, and some other benefits. I will stop short of saying you have to go DCC, but, for some people, it's a good choice. It may not be for you, depending on what you are looking to do.

The important thing is you took the first step in starting a layout, and getting into the hobby. Congrats! And, again, welcome aboard! 

EDIT: I see two of us were commenting at the same time. You get that sometimes here.... 

[Medina1128]

IRONROOSTER

While I am not familiar with your setup, I have run Bachmann dual mode decoder locomotives with DC.  I have noticed that the locomotive does not move immediately.  I believe this is a characteristic of Bachmann's dual decoder (runs on DCC or DC).

I have a Bachmann Spectrum locomotive with DCC that I was running on DC and it would make the chuff sound while the locomotive was still sitting still. I just put it back in the box.

[BroadwayLion]

MOTOR will run at 2 or 3 volts.

DCC CARD requires 5 volts.

DCC CARD will take the power until it gets its 5 volts, after that the motor will begin to get power. You have to power up the DCC even though you are not using it before it (the DCC circuit) will start to pass power to the motor.

On a DCC layout, you have a constant 12v dc on the tracks and the DCC card operates the locomotive according to the DCC comands embedded in the track system. Thus on DCC you will get the normal operation that you think you should have, while on DC you still must appease the card that you do not think that you are using. The CARD will sense that it is on DC, but it cannot do even that simple task without its 5 volts DC, for that is what its chips require to think.

ROAR

[bogp40]

Welcome, Hopefully you got all the answers at this time. If you plan to continue w/ DCC on all future purchases, I would recommend that the next item is to buy a DCC system for control. There are many "starter" sets that you can build on if needed. This discussion is propably better in another post if nec. You will get better fitting replies under that subject heading. I may be somewhat biased using Digitrax, but there are many other ones to suit your needs as you may expand.

[Soo Line fan]

Lots of people get into this hobby and some get out. Hope you stick around.

The cheapest route is to remove or have someone remove the DCC board unless it can be jumped out. Then the engine will start like its supposed to during the first quarter turn of knob movement.

 

[riogrande5761]

I would urge if you have space to go with a slightly larger size.  4x8 is quite a straight jacket limiting you in what you can run to very tight curves such as 18 or 22 inch radius.  If you can manage to increase size beyond the old 4x8 sheet of plywood, and go with say 5x9, you can get 24 inch curves and not be disappointed that you can't run this or that new train you bought.

[maxman]

CBT

We purchased a Bachmann 1225 Pere Marquette (item no. 50901) DCC equipped steam engine. We also purchased a Kato unitrack WGH Plan Set (3-103) and also a Kato power pack (221014).

I believe that that loco might just be a little too large for your layout.  Looking at the Bachmann website, it suggests that the loco works best on 22 inch radius or better curves: http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1859

According to the information I see on the 3-103 track package, the curves have a radius of 19-1/4 inch: http://www.newhallstation.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/1156

I suppose that it could be possible that there is some binding going on.

Rotating the power knob over half way could be possible if the loco is sound equipped.  From what I see, your particular loco does not have sound, so I would expect it to start moving sooner.

Nobody has yet suggested that you check the voltage across the rails.  I would expect that you would see 12 volts DC with the power pack turned all the way up.  If it is less than that, the power pack could be the issue.

And finally, what is your definition of not going very fast?  Is that moving along at a reasonable speed, or at slot car speed?

[CBT]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the great information. We will take a look and double check everything. We are trying to learn as much as we can here to get our setup going. Thanks