Everything stays on my rails even though it isn't 100% "bulletproof" and standard sized HO couplers work fine, but...Kadee and other rolling stock companies are now arriving at dealers with scale sized couplers only. Can you guys give me a general to specific idea/description of exactly how "wild" vertical transitions or an occasional tiny hump in trackwork (nothing problematic buts scenic) would need to be to constantly decouple cars on a mountain railroad? (3.5% max in a couple of areas)?
I'd like to borrow or pick up a couple to try out, but living on an Island with hobby stores many miles away and with no stock, I'd like to find out more before ordering something online to try the out.
None of the local layouts I operate on or clubs are presently using any scale sized couplers.
Would things have to be rather severe to matter? Rumors are abounding that several major manufacturerers are eventually moving towards all scale couplers.
Again, my trackwork is probably as close to "perfect" as most of us attain, but not 100% or "bulletproof" just good to fine.
Thanks, Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Jim,
Yes, I had enough issues I quit adding the scale size couplers to the fleet. With relatively few such cars, they are usually coupled between two standard couplers, which obviates the worst of the issues. But understand my standard gauge track has an entire turnback section of the dogbone that is hidden. I have to have as close to 100% reliability as I can get just for peace of mind. It wasn't like they were constantly an issue, just popped up here and there. I probably would've tolerated things if it all was happening above board and within easy reach.
You may have issues with the transition to 3.5% grades. The max on my standard gauge main is either 2.5 or 3% (been awhile since I looked at that) and I had a few issues here and there. It's not so much the ultimate grade, but the abruptness or smoothness of the vertical transition curve into it. This tends to come naturally with cookie cutter subroadbed and 3/4" plywood, so most of the issues had to do with not smothing the curve properly where adjoinging pieces came together, etc.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
My improper-uncoupling hasn't been caused by having small couplers. It's been:
Using not-Kadees
Not having the couplers at exactly the proper height
Allowing too much vertical slop in the coupler box
And, yes, track that needed fixing
Ed
Mike, thanks. All of your issues are indeed my issues. Hidden track and the need to avoid bringing an Ops session to a halt with any cars racing downhill have made me steer clear of the scale couplers. I do intend to replace all couplers with Kadees and have just received a shipment.
Do any of you know if the next release of Intermountain AAR and 20 box cars will come with scale sized Kadees as the new Kadee cars are? I'd like to order some and cut down on coupler and wheelset replacement jobs while I continue to build and scenic the layout.
I've asked a couple of dealer but they weren't sure and I'll fire off an email to Intermountain.
Well, that sounds about like my situation indeed.
One more factor here. It's the longer cars that cause most of the problems, especially if the trucks are set in from the end of the chassis very far. The geometry of this aggravates the situation. If your're having lots of issues with 40' and 50' cars, it's probably worth looking at the track more closely to improve it in some form as that may cause problems with standard head couplers. If just the longer cars, then you may get away with not replacing those on the short cars and just do the long ones. YMMV
I have a variety of couplers, using both "scale" and older Kadee #5 size heads. I haven't noticed much of an issue with coupling/uncoupling between the two sizes, at least not with Kadee metal couplers. Keeping vertical slop under control within the draft gear boxes can be more critical with the smaller heads.
The scale head McHenry plastic couplers do have a tendency to wedge open or closed, and the shanks can deform under load. Replacing them with metal couplers can be good insurance against problems. If you discard the McHenrys, at least save the knuckle springs, as they can work on Kadees.
Rob Spangler
Are we talking 58’s and 148’s? If so I can say that at least half of my fleet runs them with no problems. I use 5s and 58s/148s together with no problems whatsoever.
Good track and good set up result in good operation. I have found that if there is a problem in the track work or set up with the 58s there is also the same problem with the 5’s…I have 300’ of hidden track 2% grades and a helix. Never had any coupler induced problems.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Just recieved this message from Intermountain. Good news.
Jim,All of our HO models come with Kadee standard couplers. #5's if they will work - extended shank ones if not.Thank you for your support of InterMountain Railway Company products.-CheersRichard FrazierInterMountain Railway Company
I have nothing but Kadee Number 5 couplers and have no interest in any scale sized couplers as I don't feel they would add much to the overall scale looks on my railroad. I've found my Number 5s to be handy and reliable. I could try the whisker spring couplers but can't see spending the added money for them. To each his own!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Guy, yes, those are my coupler #s. It's the use of scale sized that concerned me. I'm going to look at Intermountain's pre-orders for rolling stock. I'm trying to get some beginning Ops sessions going in the near future and am willing to spend a bit to get going while putting all my effort into structure building this year.
Anyone familiar with Intermountains' proposed delivery dates? Do they usually arrive near the stated date or is it like Proto and BLI...with a "who knows when-real late" delivery.
I was tempted to pick up some Kadee PS-1 box cars recently but I think I'm glad I've stayed away due to the scale couplers and their possible issues. Glad to find an alternative via Intermountain.
Jim
My fleet is now about 50/50 between #5 and #58 (scale) Kadees. I have few problems with them. I don't worry about what couplers are on cars when I put them into trains, and if I have coupler problems, it's the track unless a coupler is actually loose or mis-adjusted.
My layout is mostly flat, but there are a couple of to-be-fixed bumps here and there.
I buy all #58s now for replacement of plastic couplers. I don't plan to change out the #5s, as they work fine, but for all other replacements it's #58 for me. I just like the way they look.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Capt. GrimekI was tempted to pick up some Kadee PS-1 box cars recently but I think I'm glad I've stayed away due to the scale couplers and their possible issues. Glad to find an alternative via Intermountain.
You know it's easier than can be to replace the couplers with standard head #5 or #148 in case of trouble...
Kadee scale couplers, and regular coupler will work perfectly together, no problems. The scale couplers are smaller vertically, so yes, there is a potential for them to come apart on bad track work. Avoid dips, and keep the track fairly level with smooth transitions.
I remember in the article about Pelle's new layout, he said that there was a dip in the tracks that caused the couplers to come apart on the old layout, which was a reason for building the new layout.
I would installing a few on cars if different lengths, and testing them out for a few months to see how they will work on your layout.
A friend has offered to loan me a few scale couplers to try out. All of the issues I've had so far have been with plastic couplers. They twist, bend, and ultimately break (not all but a lot of them). They're almost all at improper heights, etc. Those are the cars I've bought Kadee whisker couplers for.
It's the rest of the rolling stock that I'm looking to purchase that will only be ordered with kadees installed by the manufacturer to save some work and time. I've placed an order for some Intermountain box cars with standard kadees so I think I'm good to go. It wasn't easy finding what I wanted as they're out of stock at many dealers but I've scrounged up enough to plan ops scenarios.
Thanks for the advice and info. everyone.
If you don't own one you should purchase a Kadee coupler height gauge and check all your current rolling stock as well as each new car. I use all Kadees, mostly #5s. I don't have any problems with the few scale couplers equipped cars. Stick with Kadees. The knock-offs, even the best ones, will eventually disappoint.
slammin If you don't own one you should purchase a Kadee coupler height gauge and check all your current rolling stock as well as each new car. I use all Kadees, mostly #5s. I don't have any problems with the few scale couplers equipped cars. Stick with Kadees. The knock-offs, even the best ones, will eventually disappoint.
A KD height gauge should be standard equipment for a modelers RR tune up kit. I bought one years ago and it appeared to have the semi-scale coupler so I bought another which appears to have the modern #5 head. It must be that the really old ones had a smaller head.
Since I don't have limitless cash, I can't afford to replace all my plastic couplers at once, but I'm replacing the plastic ones as they fail and eventually hope to have them all KD.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Obtaining reliable operation, no random uncoupling, with standard size couplers (#5) requires a good deal of attention to coupler height, coupler droop, and vertical curvature (how much you fair the vertical curve at the beginning and ends of grades).
The scale sized couplers (#58) are smaller, and so less tolerant of vertical misalignment. Successful operation with scale sized couplers will require greater care in the same areas than operation with standard size couplers.
I cannot put a number on "greater care". You will have to work on it till it works. It will take more work with scale sized couplers than with standard size.
I run standard sized (#5) couplers and am satisfied with the looks, and I obtain reliable operation.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
dstarrObtaining reliable operation, no random uncoupling, with standard size couplers (#5) requires a good deal of attention to coupler height, coupler droop, and vertical curvature (how much you fair the vertical curve at the beginning and ends of grades). The scale sized couplers (#58) are smaller, and so less tolerant of vertical misalignment. Successful operation with scale sized couplers will require greater care in the same areas than operation with standard size couplers. I cannot put a number on "greater care". You will have to work on it till it works. It will take more work with scale sized couplers than with standard size. I run standard sized (#5) couplers and am satisfied with the looks, and I obtain reliable operation.
David,
Good way to sum it up. Good operation with #5 Kadees doesn't just happen. You have to work at it. Want to run ones even more sensitive to irregularities in the track? More work. Depends on what you prefer spending your time on.
BTW, there are ALWAYS irregularities in the track. The question is whether your tolerances are suitable to operate through them. But this is something that goes way beyond throwing gauges at installed height and calling it good, particularly on larger layouts more subject to shifting in benchworks, mutltiple users, wear-and-tear, etc. And the more gradse you have, the more challanging the problems, as entering and exiting each one presents the potential for problems. Mountain railroading is just tougher in scale, as it is in real life.
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
My height gauge came with a #148 and a #158. The #148 is the standard sized coupler, and the #158 is the semi scale coupler. Both are "whisker" couplers. I put the two couplers together and I could see a slight difference in height, it is not that much of a difference. If the scale couplers are coming apart you really should service your rolling stick and/or fix your track work. The couplers go together perfectly, so you can have both types with absolutely no problem.