JOHN BRUCE III I've seen this pitch on a number of forums. However, it's pretty clearly a solicitation to invest in an individual's business venture. In effect, this person is selling something. Isn't that in violation of the forum policies?
I've seen this pitch on a number of forums. However, it's pretty clearly a solicitation to invest in an individual's business venture. In effect, this person is selling something. Isn't that in violation of the forum policies?
If the producer herself were posting and asking for donations, I'm sure it would be. I don't think something like this is exactly violating the "no solicitation" rule, because the poster is not affiliated with the production and isn't exactly asking people to donate.
Maybe on other forums people are explicitly asking folks to donate to the production, and in that case, I'd say that's crossing the line, even though those people may not be personally involved with the production.
I could be wrong, though. I'll let the moderators make the ultimate decision.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
Here is what the policy says: "Our users are the drivers behind this policy. They don’t want the useful information in our forums watered down with advertisements or solicitations to buy something. If you’d like to advertise on our site, scroll to the bottom of this page and click the “Advertise” link."
I don't know what the connection is between the original poster and Ms Kelly. However, the policy is simply against solicitations, and I would think a post saying click to see this wonderful pitch is a solicitation. I would also say, though, that her solicitation is for an investment, and we know nothing about her and her company, except she sorta thinks model trains are neat. If I were the moderator, I would err on the side of protecting forum members from a potential scam.
I'm a little surprised that Mr Otte hasn't caught this.
Kickstarter is a way for lots and lots of people to contribute perhaps tiny amounts to see a project financed. It's a new way of funding projects like documentaries that would never get made otherwise. It's organic and grass-roots. It works because we have the technology to share on forums such as this with like-minded people who are passionate about a certain subject. It's far different from "Hey, buy my product".
For every scammer there are thousands of projects that get funded (60,000 so far on Kickstarter) and completed. If you are going to contribute $10,000 then contact the producer and do your homework. If you are thinking of pledging ten bucks, take a chance and toss your money in the hat.
By the way, I write this as a former manufacturer in the model railroad business, and it doesn't offend me at all that promoting this project is allowed on model railroad forums.
Barry
Since we're not talking about a product or service for sale, it's a gray area, not specifically prohibited by the Forum rules. Since the subject of the documentary is model-railroad related, and the situation isn't likely to come up frequently enough to become an issue, we decided to allow it this time. If the Forum gets swamped by similar solicitations, though, we will revisit this decision.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
I did not see this posted here. Hopefully enough is raised for it to go into production.Maybe Kalmbach can help out. Or the worlds greastest hobby organization.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1007036228/model-citizens-a-model-railroading-documentary-in
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Also, I merged the threads.
Thanks, Steve, that reasonable. I wouldn't want a "Weekly Donation Suggestion" thread, but I think this really isn't that and I would hope it doesn't become an issue in the future.
As one who has supported the project, I wanted to discuss why I did, as this might be of interest to others considering the same. It was very modest financial support, given my circumstances at the moment. But as someone who has been involved in the media myself -- all non-RR-related so far -- I also think it's important to mention these things where others have a chance to consider them. The public market place of ideas has changed rapidly because of the information age. Pubs like RMC have gone under. Others aspire to new forms of publishing. Model Railroader has done a great job within a complex and evolving media landscape in allowing people to discuss all aspects of the hobby in many different ways, from paper to virtual, and allowing space for discussion like this to take place.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have no quarrel with this thread or the decision to leave it up and running. That is fine with me.
But I can't help wondering why Sara Kelly doesn't follow the more traditional means for funding her venture, namely a venture capital source or an outright studio backing.
If the success or failure of the project is dependent on small, individual contributions from model railroading hobbyists, it is probably doomed to failure even though the bottom line is only $30,000.
Rich
Alton Junction
This method of fund raising has been fairly common with "small potatoes" musicians producing CDs of their "album" projects. So it's not that new or singular. The time frame seems awful short though for her "kickstarter" funding. I've made a small contribution but agree that it's a long shot with a short time frame for success. Hopefully it will work out.
I'm hoping that she'll address or show young kids who are computer game oriented, etc. participating in MRing and showing why they find it equally challenging or "cool" to address the next generation(s) discovery of our hobby.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
richhotrain But I can't help wondering why Sara Kelly doesn't follow the more traditional means for funding her venture, namely a venture capital source or an outright studio backing.
1. Traditional funders don't generally finance small documentaries with a $60,000 budget. A lot of people can't even get loans for a car or a house these days, and bankers understand a lot less about filmmaking than those things.
2. If a "studio" was to take over production, Sara would find herself on the sidelines and replaced by someone else the next day.
richhotrain If the success or failure of the project is dependent on small, individual contributions from model railroading hobbyists, it is probably doomed to failure even though the bottom line is only $30,000.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say by this.
Regardless, it doesn't have to be that way. If only 1500 of the tens of thousands of hobbyists chipped in 10 bucks in the next 24 hours we could help her meet the goal.
Grand River Models richhotrain If the success or failure of the project is dependent on small, individual contributions from model railroading hobbyists, it is probably doomed to failure even though the bottom line is only $30,000. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say by this. Regardless, it doesn't have to be that way. If only 1500 of the tens of thousands of hobbyists chipped in 10 bucks in the next 24 hours we could help her meet the goal.
First of all, you are not going to get 1,500 guys to contribute ten bucks each, let alone the necessary twenty bucks each. We have already seen that as a failure.
Second of all, if Sara needs $30,000, at $100 each, she is going to need 300 contributors, not gonna happen.
That is my point. Small contributions from a whole lot of people is less promising than some large contributions from a few people, i.e., venture capitalists or studio executives. Personally, I think that Sara is fighting an uphill, perhaps losing, battle.
richhotrainBut I can't help wondering why Sara Kelly doesn't follow the more traditional means for funding her venture, namely a venture capital source or an outright studio backing.
When you get funded by many individual donors you do it your way.
When you get all your funds from one large individual donor, then you do it their way.
richhotrain I have no quarrel with this thread or the decision to leave it up an running. That is fine with me. But I can't help wondering why Sara Kelly doesn't follow the more traditional means for funding her venture, namely a venture capital source or an outright studio backing. If the success or failure of the project is dependent on small, individual contributions from model railroading hobbyists, it is probably doomed to failure even though the bottom line is only $30,000. Rich
I have no quarrel with this thread or the decision to leave it up an running. That is fine with me.
The small funding thing really was intended for this sort of thing. The quirky, the unusual, and so on.
Heck, Penn State is using it to help finance landing an automated probe on the Moon!
richhotrain First of all, you are not going to get 1,500 guys to contribute ten bucks each, let alone the necessary twenty bucks each. We have already seen that as a failure.
Twenty bucks each is not necessary. She is already half-way to the goal of $30,000. That means $15,000 remains to be pledged. 1,500 X $10 would be $15,000. Better still, how about 8,000 supporters with a couple bucks.
richhotrain Second of all, if Sara needs $30,000, at $100 each, she is going to need 300 contributors, not gonna happen.
There are different perks for the various amounts shown, but they do not necessarily need to be fulfilled in order for the campaign to be a success. The only number that matters is 30,000.
richhotrain That is my point. Small contributions from a whole lot of people is less promising than some large contributions from a few people, i.e., venture capitalists or studio executives. Personally, I think that Sara is fighting an uphill, perhaps losing, battle.
I have seen campaigns where more funds came in on the last day than the entire campaign previously.
SO MUCH NEGATIVITY.
I encourage anyone interested to make a pledge. If the campaign does not reach its goal then the funds are not forwarded to the project and you will not be charged a cent. If we all sit around and say we would like to contribute but use the excuse "She'll never make it" then we're full of it!
As far as venture capitalists or studios being an option, Maxman makes the point very well. I can tell you that even people from the NMRA wanted to see Sara's final cut as part of the agreement to let her shoot at Cleveland. What do you think an investor or studio exec would do to her film, and to her portrayal of people in the hobby?
Barry, it is not negativity, it is reality.
When 1,500 model railroaders won't donate $10 to further the hobby it just shows that model railroaders are cheap*.
Jaime
* I myself pledged to fund Sara's documentary.
NEMMRRC When 1,500 model railroaders won't donate $10 to further the hobby it just shows that model railroaders are cheap*. Jaime * I myself pledged to fund Sara's documentary.
I think it is a worthwhile project, and I have made a pledge. This is a documentary about us, who we are, and why we like trains. I think that is a good thing.
I tend to agree more with rrebell than with tin can.
On the one hand, it is a worthwhile project, and I hope it succeeds. In fact, I said that early on in this thread.
On the other hand, I feel no particular inclination to help fund it. If Ms. Kelly wants to produce a documentary, fine. There are several conventional sources of financing. In a way, it is self-serving for model railroaders to fund the project. What would be the point?
Funding vs. non-funding is a personal choice. This is the only place I have seen anything about Model Citizens; I don't do facebook, instagram, twitter, etc. If you don't support it; that doesn't make you a bad person....
And it looks like it got funded...
It did get funded to the tune of $30,001. I'm looking forward to see what she does with the future production now that she has the funding.
My contribution was quite modest -- $10. Virtually no risk, so I didn't see any big need to worry. It's not like Sara didn't have any bonifides -- it's clear she cared deeply about the subject already. So I'm thrilled this film will be made. I think that most of those who thought they had a problem with it are likely to find it will be worthwhile after all.
Now that all the financials are apparently in place & the documentry can now be completed, one of the next steps of course is distribution.
If the purpose of this film is to acquaint the wider non-modeling community of the hobby we so much enjoy, then a method of distribution to acheive this is as important as anythhng else. I have no experience with this kind of thing & so therfore can't comment much further on the subject of what kind of planning would need to be in place to acheive what the documentry maker has set out to do.
I can't help but think that this worthwhile project may well be an excersise in, "preaching to the converted" with the largest group of viewers being model railroaders ourselves. No surprises there because we have the highest level of interest to view other modelers layouts that in normal circumstances we would not have the opportunity to see. That in itself is a good thing, of course. But I'm just uncertain how sucessful the PR aspect aimed af the wider community will be.
Dusty.
The question of what to do with a film upon completion is always a big one.
Model Citizens will make good film festival programming. It's in that venue that films create a buzz and attract interest from distributors. Also, distribution models are changing. As more and more content moves from small theaters and DVD to on-demand downloads, it's easier than ever for a producer to find an audience. But all this is almost a year away.
In the end, I'm betting the doc will be seen by more people who aren't in the hobby than those who are. And the key to it's success will rest on it's focus on interesting personalities, rather than good layouts.