I have a number of old Athearn sets that I plan on restoring. I thought I would do the following:
My intention is do:
1) Give all shells an ultrasonic bath if needed
2) Clean & lube loco chassis, replace Hi-F bands if loco has them
3) Replace any damaged parts (only with original vintage parts, no “Blue Box” era parts)
4) Remove brass track and either replace with nickel-silver track, or add two more freight cars per set
5) Replace freight car wheel sets with metal ones
I was curious what the consensus would be on if doing all this would reduce the "collectability" of the sets. I know doing this would mean the sets would not be "MINT" , but they wouldn't be MINT anyway because most of the boxes have been repaired. Since I haven't decided if I will sel the sets or keep them, I guess it doesn't matter how this affects their value. I was just interested in what other folks think.
I look forward to your comments.
I think you'll find yourself much better off to just replace the original chassis with a blue box chassis. I've reworked those old Athearn locos and they seldom come out performing well plus finding really good parts for them is at best a shot in the dark. When I get an old loco now, be it Athearn, Varney, Atlas, Bachmann, whatever, unless the chassis is in very good operating order I replace it with a modern equivalent. Modern Athearn blue box works best in the old Athearns of course. In most cases it's a snap-in installation. For me the Athearn blue box F7 chassis works well in the old Varney F units. For the older Bachmann gp40 a modern Bachmann GP38 chassis is a snap-in replacement (the new GP40 chassis won't fit).
I know you didn't ask for all that but the message here is that you're better off replacing the chassis with newer ones. The old ones will almost always be a source of frustration.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
MikeyChris I have a number of old Athearn sets that I plan on restoring. I thought I would do the following: My intention is do: 1) Give all shells an ultrasonic bath if needed 2) Clean & lube loco chassis, replace Hi-F bands if loco has them 3) Replace any damaged parts (only with original vintage parts, no “Blue Box” era parts) 4) Remove brass track and either replace with nickel-silver track, or add two more freight cars per set 5) Replace freight car wheel sets with metal ones I was curious what the consensus would be on if doing all this would reduce the "collectability" of the sets. I know doing this would mean the sets would not be "MINT" , but they wouldn't be MINT anyway because most of the boxes have been repaired. Since I haven't decided if I will sel the sets or keep them, I guess it doesn't matter how this affects their value. I was just interested in what other folks think. I look forward to your comments.
MikeyChrisReplace any damaged parts (only with original vintage parts, no “Blue Box” era parts)
The 40' and some 50' boxcars and 50' gons,40' flats,3 dome and chemical tank cars from the 50/60s are the "blue box" freight cars.Athearn hasn't changed them,The F7A/B and GP7(aka Athearn GP9)
As far as collectability the cars,the F7s and GP7 is readily available on e-Bay and at Train Shows..Some of the cars now come RTR as does the F7A/B.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
For collectability, you should
Keep the brass track and the original wheel sets.
Be careful that any cleanup you do does not damage the original finish.
Replace damaged parts only with like parts of the same vintage. Keep the original parts with the box.
Paul
Voice of experience here.
I came back to the hobby about 9 years ago. I still had my trains in boxes in the attic. From the newspapers I used to wrap the trains, they had been in boxes for close to 40 years.
Most of my engines were Athearns. None of them worked well enough to bother with, at least mechanically. With some coaxing, I got one to run with a DCC decoder in it, but it growled and stalled a lot. I ended up replacing the chassis on one F7, and creating dummy engines on 2 others. I also made my Hi-F drive GP9 into a dummy. However, I did take the time to clean them all up, replace decals as needed, add numbers to the Geep and upgrade the shells with detail parts.
The rolling stock got replacement metal wheels, and in some cases new trucks. Some of the old sprung trucks were simply glued together, as they were too loosy-goosey by this time, and the wheels wouldn't stay in place. The real springs are still there, but they have no function. Engines and cars alike are now equipped with Kadees, too.
I never assumed these would have collector value. Instead, they have sentimental value, which is why I bothered with putting all the effort into old dummy engines. And, now the entire fleet, some of which are almost as old as I am, have the kind of value that only old friends can appreciate.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
As mentioned by others, any Athearn plastic freight car from a train set of the late mid to late 50's and 60's is the same as its "Blue Box" version.
Actually the kit verions of the plastic cars started out in red and white boxes, went to yellow boxes, then to blue boxes, all the same and offered both RTR and in kits during the late 50's and most of the 60's.
Also mentioned by others, there is no particular "collector" value or market for them and good condition is good condition. There are likely way more people who would buy the rolling stock to run on their layouts than people interested in the brass track or rubber band loco as a collector pieces.
One of the big reasons there is no collector market is that Athearn made the same products from then until now. A great many of the current Ready to Roll items are those same cars - tooling from the 50's, 60's, 70's and a few from the 80's - some with a few upgrades, many just with better paint jobs.
They have been made the same for so long, and produced in such large total quantities, that they are just not all that "special" or rare.
The older cars did have sprung trucks, a plus in my book over the rigid plastic ones, but the wheelsets are not up to todays standards.
The other reason there is no collector market, is because the collector market is VERY small in HO, especially for older stuff. There is a new sort of collector, collecting todays high end, high detail "plastic brass" cars and locos. But short of that, most people in HO are modelers, not collectors and they would take one of those old Athearn freight cars and cut it up for a kit bashing project, or weather it, or repaint it in a hot New York second without any thought to it being "collectable".
If you think that you can turn a profit doing this, I think you will be disappointed, to say the least.
Sheldon
PS - This opinion comes from someone who worked in a hobby shop in the 70's and 80's, has been in the hobby since the late 60's and still runs lots of old Athearn, Varney, MDC, Silver Streak and similar vintage rolling stock going back t othe late 40's and 50's - metal sided cars, wood kits, and old plastic cars from the beginning of plastic freight cars. I don't have them because they are "collectable", I have them because they are still good looking reasonably accurate, good running models.
I just recently picked up about two dozen more old un built Athearn and Varney kits - which will get built , with some detail upgrades, and be added to the fleet.
One thing the OP could do is modify/detail the cars so as to be a positive addition for a layout or diorama or the like. As most of us know, with KDs and wheelsets, weathering, etc., an Athearn car can compete favorably with some of the more expensive "RTR" cars out there today.
BTW, I've sold (and bought) a lot of the vintage Athearn cars over the years, and while there is a market for some, its just not for many.............
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Thanx for all the quick replies. I appreciate you guys taking the time to do so.
As I think I made clear in my original message, this isn't about the money as much as how would a collector view the alterations I plan to make. A purist would probably want the brass track and all original cars (e.g. not exchanging a box car for a stock car in the original set).
As for the differences between yellow and blue box kits, I refer you to the underframe of the freight cars. Any true Athearn collector knows the old cars had coupler box with a screw-on cover (not the metal snap on used later) and the trucks were sprung, some with springs others with rubber "snubbers". The shells didn't change, although some of the paint schemes only appeared in either the yellow box or the blue box versions.
There is a very distinct category of collectors that collect vintage HO. This group once had a SIG (HO Scale Collectors & History Sig) headed by Dave Spanagel (wrote a book on Varney).
I agree completely that replacing the chassis with newer ones results in a better running engine with less work involved. In fact I had acquired a number of blue box locos with that in mind. However I recently sold a substantial portion of my collection, and the Athearn locos were in that batch. So, I'll probably stick with rehabbing what I have instead of spending more money to buy what i just sold... Maybe I sold in haste, who knows.
As for value, it is truly in the eyes the particular collector. I see Athearn sets on eBay that have Buy it now prices of $150 to $250 and the sets are far from mint. These sellers are either unaware of what they are selling, or hoping for that single collector that wants that set to come along. Personally, over the last 13 years I have picked up a number of Athearn sets in the $50 range, some of them in ecellent condition. I have also found pre-blue box freight cars for 5 to 10 bucks that are literally mint (except for box wear, and that doesn't bother me because I won't need the box).
I guess my bottom line is i don't want to "desicrate" a set that another collector would love to have "as is". Yet I would enjoy operating these sets for a time and then passing them on. While I was operating them I would want optimum performance, thus the metal wheels, Kadees, etc. That is my conundrum.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe other reason there is no collector market, is because the collector market is VERY small in HO, especially for older stuff. There is a new sort of collector, collecting todays high end, high detail "plastic brass" cars and locos.
Sadly misinform HO modelers believe that when just the opposite is true.There is a large market for some of the older HO.
The collectors are seeking the one run rare road name cars from Bev-Bel /Athearn and other "custom" painters such as Rail Runner and Robin Rail not your more common cars that is readily available on e-Bay or train shows.
How many Berlin Mills 50' boxcars have or blue Aberdeen & Rockfish 50' boxcars have you seen? Both was a one run from Bev-Bel/Athearn and can fetch a pretty penny--if you can find them..
As you may recall I collect IPD short line boxcars and have seen those two cars exactly once in the last 20 years.
When Athearn introduced the blue-ended boxes, they indicated that the freight car kits inside had metal RP-25 wheelsets. They were concurrent with the yellow ends, for awhile. These had plastic S-4 wheelsets. The first offering included 12 cars, my favorite being the Glacier green GN 40' box.
I think Tyco/Mantua was still, at that time, using flanges deeper than S-4 standards. Among others.
Ed
BRAKIE Berlin Mills 50' boxcars have or blue Aberdeen & Rockfish 50' boxcars have you seen? Both was a one run from Bev-Bel/Athearn and
Russell
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRALThe other reason there is no collector market, is because the collector market is VERY small in HO, especially for older stuff. There is a new sort of collector, collecting todays high end, high detail "plastic brass" cars and locos. Sadly misinform HO modelers believe that when just the opposite is true.There is a large market for some of the older HO. The collectors are seeking the one run rare road name cars from Bev-Bel /Athearn and other "custom" painters such as Rail Runner and Robin Rail not your more common cars that is readily available on e-Bay or train shows. How many Berlin Mills 50' boxcars have or blue Aberdeen & Rockfish 50' boxcars have you seen? Both was a one run from Bev-Bel/Athearn and can fetch a pretty penny--if you can find them.. As you may recall I collect IPD short line boxcars and have seen those two cars exactly once in the last 20 years.
Larry, a large collector market is defined as a relatively large group of people interested in a relatively small number of rare items. Not a small group of people interested in an even smaller number of rare items.
Sure some of the items you mention are rare, I even have a few rare HO items myself, fact remains that even with a large shift toward collecting and more of a "buy RTR" mentality, HO is still primarily a "modelers scale".
Different from High Rail where it could easily be deminstrated that most enthusiasts can be defined as collectors, or as collectors first and modelers second.
Yes, Athearn made a few changes to its product along the way. The biggest being with the streamlined passenger cars which started out with all seperate parts - sides, ends, roof, floor, etc - and were first marketed using the GLOBE name, a company Athearn aquired not too long before going into plastic.
But all in all, it is amazing how much Athearn product has not changed in 55 years.
ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, a large collector market is defined as a relatively large group of people interested in a relatively small number of rare items. Not a small group of people interested in an even smaller number of rare items.
Agreed if you want to overlook those that collect locomotives,passenger cars.FSM wood kits and older HO like Varney,AHM and TYCO.I knew a guy that collect GG1s all lettered for PRR and he renumbered them in sequence..When he passed he had over 300.
I won't try to explain the logic of HO collectors but,be assured they lots of 'em.
As for me I think you know what I collect..
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRALLarry, a large collector market is defined as a relatively large group of people interested in a relatively small number of rare items. Not a small group of people interested in an even smaller number of rare items. Agreed if you want to overlook those that collect locomotives,passenger cars.FSM wood kits and older HO like Varney,AHM and TYCO.I knew a guy that collect GG1s all lettered for PRR and he renumbered them in sequence..When he passed he had over 300. I won't try to explain the logic of HO collectors but,be assured they lots of 'em. As for me I think you know what I collect..
Larry, let me further explain my view. People who buy FSM kits and do not build them are collectors, yet another modeler might have every one ever made, and has built them, and has them on his layout, I do not view that person as a collector, but as simply a modeler who prefers that partular line of product - for any one of a number of personal reasons.
I have lots of Vaney and Athearn metal cars, I do not consdider myself a collector of them - I own them to run on the layout, no different than something that was just manufactured six months ago. And when I find them for sale, and they are in suitable condition - usually unbuilt - and they fit the layout theme, I buy them. But not to be able to display my "collection" but to outfit my railroad.
As of late, the brass market has gone to the dogs on a number of items. When I had intentions of doing duel gauge, I used to drool over some of the K-27 ect in HOn3 which went for $350 or more, now I have seen them go for $150. Some rare HO cars by MDC with Gorre & Defeted livery went for a big premium, not any longer. Early FSM kits can be had any day of the week for under $100, the more recent (15 years) can go for alot at times. These are just a few of the markets I followed.
The Bev-Bel/Athearn and Bev-Bel/Roundhouse cars can be over the place..I even see very common road names with ridiculous price tags.I seen a Athearn John Deere set sell for $399.00 at a farm show-I suspect the guy was a JD collector.
To date I haven't seen a brass United Class B 2 truck shay for less then $500.00..I been hoping to find one around $100-130.00..I did see a basket case with tons of missing parts for $150.00 as is.
Hi again,
Forgot to mention Bev-Bel painted Athearn & MDC cars........... Typically Bev-Bel put out 6 or so road numbers of their various offerings. There has been a following for those since the 1980s, with some of the numbers highly sought after. I have several on the layout today and they are among my favorites - with of course KDs, wheelsets, Dull-Cote, and a tad of weathering.
For me, even though these were "shake the box" kits, I have always preferred them to the RTR cars.
Based on your comments, and my understanding of "restoring", you are not actually doing that, but maybe more like rehabilitating? So I would suggest caution when describing these sets as "restored".
Pathfinder Based on your comments, and my understanding of "restoring", you are not actually doing that, but maybe more like rehabilitating? So I would suggest caution when describing these sets as "restored".
Very good point. Not that I actually plan on selling them as restored, but I did use that term, and would not do so when selling the sets (if I ever do). I deserve a wuppin' with a wet noodle for that one. I am always getting ticked off at sellers on eBay that throw around terms like MINT (that have a real meaning) with complete disregard for that meaning. I have seen things described as MINT and you can see missing parts or damage in the photos of the items they are selling. So your point is well taken.