S scale and O scale turnouts cost more.
This is one place where scratchbuilding will save you money.
But as others have noted, you buy that basement layout over many years. I'm in the first phase of building my basement layout. But for the last 20 years I have been in S scale accumulating cars, locomotives, buildings, rail, flex track, and various parts. I already have enough cars (200+) and locomotives (11) for the whole basement with the exception of about a half dozen passenger and mail baggage cars which will have to be scratchbuilt. I have about 100 ft of flex track and 300 ft of rail. I salvaged the benchwork from my last two layouts which did the first phase - 12 x 31 ft..
While I do make impulse buys. I have been focused on the Ma&Pa for 15 years, so almost everything I have bought is appropriate.
Frankly, I don't build fast enough to need more than a couple hundred dollars a month now for supplies. I expect this layout to take several years to complete.
BTW My first layout in HO had 7 Atlas turnouts - all worked fine.
Good luck
Paul
My first paying job in 1976 as an adult living on my own (and married) was with the Coast Guard, bringing home $500 a month. Rent was $170, followed by $225 for 6 months, then back to a cheaper $180 place. Not a lot left over for model railroading (or even furniture).
I was building a 4x8 with 10 turnouts. Atlas NS Custom-Line turnouts (no code 83 back then) were discounted to $8.55 according to the ads in MR. My income and the cost of track were just not matching up. So I decided I better hand lay my track to keep expenses in line, and to better spread the hobby purchases over time.
When I got the 1st oval laid, we realized $225 rent on $500 income doesn't work. So we moved to a smaller, cheaper place which didn't have room for a 4x8. So I down-sized to a 4x6 that started with 4 turnouts and ended up with 8 turnouts, a crossing, and a turntable.
Using Jack Work's Birth of a Turnout in the April 1963 MR as a guide, my very first handlaid turnout (code 70) was a success, and even looked better to my eye than the Atlas Custom Line product. Total cost in materials were less than $2 per turnout (ties, spikes, rail, ballast), and I paid 95 cents each for 2 three point gauges. The needle-nose pliers, file, hack saw blade, Atlas track saw, and soldering iron I already had. I cut up a small piece of PC board from Radio Shack for the throw bars; the rest of the ties were wood.
FWIW, I've learned to despise cork roadbed. It's never failed to dry and crumble - and I've tried cork roadbed on 3 separate occasions - given enough time. My preference to date is Homasote, but I've also used Celotex, Upson, redwood, and clear pine as well as cork over the years. The Northern California Narrow Gaugers have switched to 1/8" doorskin for roadbed - I may very well give that a try at my next opportunity.
I'm here to say that HO handlaid track is really not all that difficult, even for a klutz like me. That's not to say that I won't use commercial track. I have a limited amount that I have collected over the years. I use that to get the layout started. But pretty soon, the lack of realism gets to me and/or I need a special turnout, and I revert to replacing the commercial track with handlaid.
Fred W
charlie9 i have been in shock since i saw a $40.00 flat car. i was lucky enough to stock up on most everything years ago and now i joke about how all i buy is paint and glue. Charlie
i have been in shock since i saw a $40.00 flat car. i was lucky enough to stock up on most everything years ago and now i joke about how all i buy is paint and glue.
Charlie
I was in the hobby in the 70's so I know about years ago, and I know about now. Years ago there was very little but it WAS cheap, and everything else had to be kitbashed or scratchbuilt. Now you can still do those same things, BUT, there is a lot of very nice off the shelf stuff available.
As for shocking prices, I saw some trains in store windows in the late 60's and early 70's that shocked me. I still see prices like that. This is all very unremarkable if you've been in the hobby a long time.
As for those $40 flat cars, I'm assuming you mean the Genesis 89' F89F. They are very nice and I haven't paid over $25 for any of the ones I bought, and the last couple were $18 and $22. I guess quoting the MSRP has it's effect eh?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
88gta350 I've heard lots of recommendations to use caulk to attach cork and track to the layout. Does caulk allow track and turnouts to be reused? I am planning on this to be a practice layout and to do something bigger and better in a few years so I'd like to be able to reuse as much of the material as possible in the future. I had been planning to caulk everything down but may have to rethink that if it won't allow me to reuse the track.
I've heard lots of recommendations to use caulk to attach cork and track to the layout. Does caulk allow track and turnouts to be reused? I am planning on this to be a practice layout and to do something bigger and better in a few years so I'd like to be able to reuse as much of the material as possible in the future. I had been planning to caulk everything down but may have to rethink that if it won't allow me to reuse the track.
Swell idea to use caulk to attach the track! Here is why: you can use a bent angle cake decorator {available at any cake/crafty store} and slide it along under the track to carefully separate it from the base.
Now, as for turnouts...I DOn't put any glue, or adhesive any where near them. TEST them throughly before you rely on them in place...Then when installed, just use the rail joiners to hold in place.Then, if yhey fail while on your temporary pike, they can be lifted out easily and replaced. ALso no glue, ballast or adhesives in the way means flawless operation for switches. They don't get "glued in place".
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I think the cost of track is one reason ISL is becoming more popular then ever before.In fact Lance Mindheim has written 4 books on the subject..
The track for my planed ISL cost less then $200.00 at street.That's for Peco medium switches and Micro Engineering flex track.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I got into the hobby in 1991. I was able to pickup USED turnouts from members of a club , They are Atlas and I'm still using them. They survived Hurricane Andrew .
Phil
I
fec153 I got into the hobby in 1991. I was able to pickup USED turnouts from members of a club , They are Atlas and I'm still using them. They survived Hurricane Andrew .Phil
I got into the hobby in 1991. I was able to pickup USED turnouts from members of a club , They are Atlas and I'm still using them. They survived Hurricane Andrew .Phil
Phil,There is certainly nothing with buying use track..I've done that many times over the years.
In fact my 6' test track is made from used brass flex track I picked up for a $1.00 at a train show.Total cost for my test track $5.00 including the board.
BRAKIE I think the cost of track is one reason ISL is becoming more popular then ever before.In fact Lance Mindheim has written 4 books on the subject..
What exactly does ISL stand for?
Rich
Alton Junction
Larry- I'm also using TRU-SCALE obtained from a member that had passed on. The track was then over 30 years old. Thanks to Jeff and his "GLEAMING" method, works great. Cost me nothing.
richhotrain What exactly does ISL stand for? Rich
Industrial Switching Layout or ISL for short.I picked up that term while attending a seminar on " Prototypical track planing and choosing the right LDEs".One section covered switching layouts..
I attended this seminar 7-8 years ago? A lot of the discussed principals on ISL designs stuck with me.
richhotrain BRAKIE I think the cost of track is one reason ISL is becoming more popular then ever before.In fact Lance Mindheim has written 4 books on the subject.. What exactly does ISL stand for? Rich
Industrial Switching Layout - in other words just a small layout that depicts an industrial area, like a belt line in a big city. Operation consists mainly of moving cars to and from industries with some sort of yard or staging as the origin/destination of all traffic. Few ISL's have a continuous loop and train movements are typically limited to one or two trains at a time.
But they are not always small - I know a guy who has one that fills a nice sized basement - just a point to point run cramed with industries from one end to the other and a staging yard at one end - He uses one Aristo throttle for the whole thing.
I plan to build one as an urban water front scene, seperate from my main layout, but with the same Roadname, era, etc.
Sheldon
Thanks, Larry and Sheldon, for the explanation.
I had Googled ISL, but couldn't find the definition of the acronym.
I figure L stood for Layout, and I had limited the S to either Switching or Siding.
I guessed that the I was either Island or Industrial.
LOL
Re: ISL
I think it is helpful if folks would refrain from using lessor known achronyms so we don't have to spend post after post in a state of confusion. I've noticed that some people like to throw achronysms around but its better for the community to take a few extra seconds and type it out. Having done some scientific reports as a geologist where achronyms are common, the standard format is to ALWAYS define the achronym at first occurance in the report and then the reader knows what it means. Also, one of the golden rules of writing is to pretend everyone reading new to the topic and has no clue of what you are talking about. This doesn't mean you have to talk as if to a 3 year old, but you do have to explain things - it saves the rest of us a lot of wasted time and confusion.
Cost of track - industrial switching layouts sound like they would save more on lumber and space more than track, since they would have a high density of a lot of track in a small place. Switching a few freight cars around doesn't fire the imagination of the general population, so I don't see industrial switching layouts as becoming very popular.
riogrande5761Switching a few freight cars around doesn't fire the imagination of the general population, so I don't see industrial switching layouts as becoming very popular.
Just enough that Lane Mindhiem has wrote 4 books covering the subject and MR had several articles covering the same subject over the past few months...I think those Godzilla size layouts that fills a basement may become a endangered species except for those with extremely deep pockets since they can cost thousands to build plus the thousand dollars worth of locomotives,cars,structures,figures,vehicles,trees etc needed to operate and populate those mega size layouts.
As far as acronyms I think they help..I been using ISL since I heard it on several forums including the old Atlas forum.
As far as switching a few cars around.That's the very basics of railroading far more then running units or intermodal trains(which can cost several thousand for cars and trailers/containers).
All you need for a ISL is 40 or 50 cars(for rotation),a engine or two,some switches,some track and structures.
BRAKIE riogrande5761Switching a few freight cars around doesn't fire the imagination of the general population, so I don't see industrial switching layouts as becoming very popular. Just enough that Lane Mindhiem has wrote 4 books covering the subject and MR had several articles covering the same subject over the past few months...I think those Godzilla size layouts that fills a basement may become a endangered species except for those with extremely deep pockets since they can cost thousands to build plus the thousand dollars worth of locomotives,cars,structures,figures,vehicles,trees etc needed to operate and populate those mega size layouts. As far as acronyms I think they help..I been using ISL since I heard it on several forums including the old Atlas forum. As far as switching a few cars around.That's the very basics of railroading far more then running units or intermodal trains(which can cost several thousand for cars and trailers/containers). All you need is 40 or 50 cars(for rotation),a engine or two,some switches,some track and structures is all you need for a ISL which can be highly detailed..
All you need is 40 or 50 cars(for rotation),a engine or two,some switches,some track and structures is all you need for a ISL which can be highly detailed..
A few thoughts:
I am interested in most all aspects of railroad operation - that is why my "Godzilla sized layout" includes the equivalent of an "Industrial Switching Layout" within it - largely separate from the "expensive" long mainline "Godzilla" part of the layout - which I can afford. "Extremely deep pockets" is a subjective area we would likely be better off not discussing, but I know lots of guys with big layouts and few of them are "wealthy beyond average" as the economy in this region goes. As I stated earlier in this thread, judging how wealthy someone is by the size of their model railroad does not allow for a long list of other life choices they may or may not have made - maybe they never take a vacation so they can afford $4000 a year for trains? I have only taken two "expensive vacations" in my whole life.
Brakie, you have repeatedly in other discussions talked about the great union jobs you had when you were younger - where did that money go that you cannot or will not afford a basement empire?
I never had those kinds of jobs when I was younger - I was one of those poor "non union workers" - but now I am self employed, successful and near retirement with no bills - we all make different choices and we should all enjoy this hobby within our means.
ONLY having an ISL would not satisfy my interests in this hobby - I would go earn more money, spend less on other stuff, or get out of the hobby if that was the case.
I like switching industries - I also like sitting back and watching a 50 car freight roll though the country side while a 12 car Limited speeds by in the other direction on the double track main - I can afford it all.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
First I'm a scrooge when it comes to some things..Secondly,as you may recall I've also stated several times that the majority of my layouts has been ISLs since that is my favorite type of layout..
Seeing I have a passion for fishing I bought a used bass boat and brand new Chevy C10 to pull it with..My wife favored a Thunderbird..We enjoyed the nicer things in life and I paid cash for a lot of things including the car I'm driving now.
All sounds good to me, except I would be bored silly switching the same old industries day after day.
[And driving the Broadway Local is NOT boring???]
Oh well, you tell me about your layout and I'll tell you about mine!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BRAKIE Brakie, you have repeatedly in other discussions talked about the great union jobs you had when you were younger - where did that money go that you cannot or will not afford a basement empire? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- First I'm a scrooge when it comes to some things..Secondly,as you may recall I've also stated several times that the majority of my layouts has been ISLs since that is my favorite type of layout.. Seeing I have a passion for fishing I bought a used bass boat and brand new Chevy C10 to pull it with..My wife favored a Thunderbird..We enjoyed the nicer things in life and I paid cash for a lot of things.
Seeing I have a passion for fishing I bought a used bass boat and brand new Chevy C10 to pull it with..My wife favored a Thunderbird..We enjoyed the nicer things in life and I paid cash for a lot of things.
Exactly my point - we all spend money differently and we all have different likes and dislikes.
For me there is nothing more boring than fishing, now a day at the rifle range.......
My wife drives a brand new loaded Ford Flex with the twin turbo engine, but I drive a 13 year old F150 because it still works fine.
My house is paid for, my cars are paid for, my trains are paid for - but I don't have or want a boat - grew up near the water and got over all that at a young age.
Lance is a nice guy, I have spoke/e-mailed with him a few times, but nothing he is doing has changed my view or methods in this hobby.
Still happy to have my ISL "within" my Godzilla layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL now a day at the rifle range..
now a day at the rifle range..
I would love that simple pleasure but,being a combat vet I shy away from such things..
BTW..I've got nothing against Godzilla size layouts..I just never had the urge to build one but,if I did it would be a Godzilla size urban industrial branch with loads of switching-I suspect you already knew that though.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL now a day at the rifle range.. I would love that simple pleasure but,being a combat vet I shy away from such things.. BTW..I've got nothing against Godzilla size layouts..I just never had the urge to build one but,if I did it would be a Godzilla size urban industrial branch with loads of switching-I suspect you already knew that though.
Larry,
As I have explained before, my layout, while large, is relatively simple. Extra space is used for a longer yard, broader curves, a bigger engine terminal, a bigger passenger terminal, not more of them.
Example - the electrical and trackwork complexity of a 8 track wide yard is the same whether it is 8 feet long or 18 feet long - mine is 18'. My passenger terminal has plateforms for 12 car trains - not 6 - and so on.
I also like building "non railroad" scenery - so I want real estate for towns, farms, etc. - as well as my ISL "belt line" weaving through part of the layout.
88gta350 DigitalGriffin 13 turnouts for a starter 4x8 layout seems a bit "excessive." Are you sure you're not trying to shove too many tracks into one 4x8? Doughless Real railroads find that turnouts are expensive too! They try to get the job done with as few as possible. See if you really need 13 on your 4x8. This is my track plan:
DigitalGriffin 13 turnouts for a starter 4x8 layout seems a bit "excessive." Are you sure you're not trying to shove too many tracks into one 4x8?
13 turnouts for a starter 4x8 layout seems a bit "excessive." Are you sure you're not trying to shove too many tracks into one 4x8?
Doughless Real railroads find that turnouts are expensive too! They try to get the job done with as few as possible. See if you really need 13 on your 4x8.
Real railroads find that turnouts are expensive too! They try to get the job done with as few as possible.
See if you really need 13 on your 4x8.
This is my track plan:
Well...this thread is about how expensive turnouts can be, so I don't want to turn it into a layout trackplan thread...but....
Just some thoughts, knowing nothing about what you want your layout to do.
You have 2 runarounds when you really only need 1. You can save 2 turnouts there.
The SW corner has a nasty S curve on the mainline that's created by using the diverging route of 2 turnouts. And that third track is probably too short to be very useful.
Generally speaking, switchbacks tend to cause you to use one more turnout than what you need to switch an industry. If you have an industry on the tail track of a switchback, you couldn't have a car sitting on it or else you'd need to move it before you had enough space to get to the other industry. Maybe that's operationally "challenging", maybe that's a pain-in-the-neck. You decide.
- Douglas
DoughlessThe SW corner has a nasty S curve on the mainline that's created by using the diverging route of 2 turnouts. And that third track is probably too short to be very useful.
Actually at scale speeds there shouldn't be a issue-at way to fast speeds all bets are off.I do agree the track is too short to be of any use.
As far as switch backs where a car has to be moved..Why not use a crossing instead? Another thing the industrial siding is owned by the industry and not the railroad and I truly doubt they would be happy to have their rail car unloaders to get paid for standing around while a switch crew switches another industry while using their track and not to mention it can take up to 30 minutes for a crew to pull and spot a car or cars.
Cool. This layout plan brings back memories. It looks like a modified version of the "Great Eastern Trunk" which was a popular layout plan from Atlas.
GTA? 350? Couldn't help noticing. It's nice to see a fellow Pontiac Trans Am fan on the forum.
88gta350 This is my track plan:
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Joe Staten Island West
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I also like building "non railroad" scenery - so I want real estate for towns, farms, etc. - as well as my ISL "belt line" weaving through part of the layout. Sheldon
I guess I'm the odd man out here since I've always favored industrial scenery and thus my love for ISL type of layouts.
There's something about the sound of a locomotive's prime mover reverberating off concrete buildings while weaving through a industrial area that gets my attention.My favorite type of train is the urban local.
ISL are great!.