BRAKIE richhotrain Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations. While I can fully appreciate your just concerns about having a collision I can't help but ask.. What's so important about running 2 trains at time on the mains? Why not just one train and your local? I did that on my N Scale 36" x 80" DC HCD layout and had fun.
richhotrain Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations.
Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations.
While I can fully appreciate your just concerns about having a collision I can't help but ask..
What's so important about running 2 trains at time on the mains?
Why not just one train and your local?
I did that on my N Scale 36" x 80" DC HCD layout and had fun.
LOL
Totally fair question, Larry.
The answer is that I started out anal 10 years ago with a roundy round concept. Make a big loop and run trains. That got boring quick, so I added a second main line with crossovers and started running trains in two directions around the double main line. That took a little longer to get bored, but that too happened soon enough. So I started creating freight yards, coach yards, sidings and spurs.
Now, I want to get into operations, but I am having a hard time giving up the roundy round concept.
Save me from myself, if you can.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I run both passenger trains and freight trains on a double main line. So, while I am performing switching duties, I may have two trains running on each main line track.
I run both passenger trains and freight trains on a double main line.
So, while I am performing switching duties, I may have two trains running on each main line track.
And its OK to put one train in a station to let the local switch off the other main. With the exceptions of BroadwayLion, nobody else runs trains like subway trains. Its OK not to have a train going by you every 3 minutes.
Go sit by a railroad main track, even a double track and count how many trains go by you in an hour or couple hours. It won't be a train every 3-4 minutes. That's what the staging yard does. Its the surge basin. You run acouple laps with the thru trains, then you run the local in one direction on one main. Then you run thru trains on the other main and run local on the opposite main..
Its not a Christmas tree. Its OK it 15 minutes goes by with out a train going over the track. Its OK if everything isn't utilized 100%.
Think about this. If you use the two track spur method then one spur will always be empty. Or......
You could use that real estate to have TWO industries, each with one track. Now you have doubled the types of cars and the amount of switching you have to do and you haven't changed a thing except your concept.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Rich,
I am living near Bussum, close to a doubletrack mainline with 10 trains per direction every hour of the day. No freight operations are existing today. In the past the number of trains per hour per direction was about 5, while lots of freight cars had to be spotted daily. Hence completely separate wayfreight tracks were constructed to keep switching from fouling the main. Only cars for the branch had to cross the main. The drawing with all those industries portrays the situation in the 40's. The branch was the first to be closed.
Today the wayfreight tracks North of the main can still been seen, though it might be the last year. The runaround was in reality much longer then on my drawing. The distance between the roadcrossings was about 1/3 mile. Freight trains in Holland usually were no longer then 700 yards. Wayfreights however no longer then 300 yards.
The Fox River plan seems to be double track. Just as Dave stated the staging yards allows you to run one mainliner (on the red tracks mainly) and one wayfreight (on the blue tracks mainly) at a time or of course two main liners. If needed the wayfreight is able to cross over to the redtracks (for interchange or engine service) while the hotshot takes the blue.
Yes indeed, if you are familiar with Lance Mindheim's work, you will understand switching can take quite some time. I do remember an article in Trains Magazine about a wayfreight on the LIRR. His daily job was waiting in the "hole" till the dispatcher finally allowed him a timeframe to do his work.
Wish you luck.
Paul
Paul,As a observation it seems the DS had lots of crossovers to use to run a train around the local as the local crew went about their work.
I wonder how the operations department got the ok to spend several million dollars to put in a "wayfreight" running track and yearly maintenance buget?
Any thoughts on that?
I find it rather interesting
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Just one other thought. Changes in operations usually just involve changes in methods or paperwork, not changes in track or anything physical.
Try running the local like a local.
What's the worst thing that could happen? You'll spend an hour playing with your trains.
How bad could that be? 8-)
dehusman Just one other thought. Changes in operations usually just involve changes in methods or paperwork, not changes in track or anything physical. Try running the local like a local. What's the worst thing that could happen? You'll spend an hour playing with your trains. How bad could that be? 8-)
Dave, when you are running a local up and down the main line, spotting cars and picking up cars, do you eventually wind up with cars both at the front and the rear of the engine?
BRAKIEAs a observation it seems the DS had lots of crossovers to use to run a train around the local as the local crew went about their work.
The dispatcher had a towerman to set the turnouts and signals so the wayfreight could enter and leave its territory. Only for taking cars from and to the branch crossing of the main was needed.
The branch was about 10 miles long with some major industries by its route. A huge chemical industry, with 4 spurs and numerous carspots which still exist today just a few miles down the road and at its very end a large brickyard. Also the coffee-burner, coffee filter and choclate factories were large with a couple of carspots too. Add busy teamtracks and the more then 10 (merely passenger) trains each hour and you have a typical model railroad situation; to much switching to be done not to hinder mainline traffic.
The tracks were built in the early 20'th century when acres were still cheap. After WW1 Bussum became a major commuter town, not even 15 miles from the centre of Amsterdam. Between a lake and the former coast the wooded area was a wonderful spot for the well-to-do from Amsterdam. My grand grand dad was one of the first who build a home half a mile from the station. The change to trucks started only in the 50's in the Netherlands due to WW2. Then the number of cars spotted in Bussum gradually dropped. Today only the teamtracks and the track to the choclate factory are still in service, though i've not seen any freightcars on them the last decade. They will be removed this year.
Those tracks were probably worth their money cause so many freightcars had to be switched daily, without fouling the ever increasing commuter traffic and the long distance hotshots going as far as Berlin and Hamburg in Germany; both a 500 miles from Amsterdam. Coaches went even further to Moscou and Kopenhagen. Dispatching traffic on this road without delaying those prime passenger and commuter trains will have been difficult enough. Hence the capital investment and maintenance duties on freight traffic had to be spend.
Hi Rich,
having cars in front and back of the engine is quite possible during switching, though IMHO the operating department, the engineer and conductor would avoid it as much as possible if the wayfreight has to cover some distance over the main or branch. Visibility and safety are at stake, a run-around will solve this issue.
Paulus Jas Hi Rich, having cars in front and back of the engine is quite possible during switching, though IMHO the operating department, the engineer and conductor would avoid it as much as possible if the wayfreight has to cover some distance over the main or branch. Visibility and safety are at stake, a run-around will solve this issue. Paul
Thanks, Paul, that is a good point about the runaround. I can use a crossover on the double main line to accomplish that objective.
Thanks Paul..That was very interesting..
Sure would liked to have spent a day there railfaning back in the day..
Paulus Jas The dispatcher had a towerman to set the turnouts and signals so the wayfreight could enter and leave its territory. Only for taking cars from and to the branch crossing of the main was needed.
"Towermen" are not that common on US railroads with some exceptions. They were more common on Eastern roads in the "rust belt" from Illinois to the Atlantic. In the western part of the country, not so much. In the western US they would only be at major junction points to control interlockings. Once lines were CTC'd the dispatchers took over their duties.
richhotrain Dave, when you are running a local up and down the main line, spotting cars and picking up cars, do you eventually wind up with cars both at the front and the rear of the engine?
Normally only while switching at a location. Once finishing at a station the engine would be on the point normally.
If you are shoving cars ahead of the engine, a man has to ride on the side of the cars on the point. They have to stop and flag all grade crossings and they are limited to a low speed, such as 20 mph.
richhotrain Doughless I think the concept of fouling the main mostly applies to large yards where a switcher must take a gawd awful amount of time to make up or break down trains. Inevitably, some train going somewhere will have to stop or the switcher will have to duck into the yard to let it pass. If it is a busy yard and main, the switcher would have to duck into the yard often and the entire railroad would lose efficiency. The railroad would likely find it beneficial to invest in more track, like a drill track separate from the main. On a layout, having to occasionally duck into the yard to avoid a train might be considered challenging. Having to do it over and over again, would likely be considered annoying, so modelers may want to design a separate drill track into the layout. A big part of my concern is that I am one of those lone wolf operators. I run both passenger trains and freight trains on a double main line. So, while I am performing switching duties, I may have two trains running on each main line track. Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations. That is in large part why I am expressing concern over this issue and trying to do what I can to keep switch operations separate from main line through trains. Rich
Doughless I think the concept of fouling the main mostly applies to large yards where a switcher must take a gawd awful amount of time to make up or break down trains. Inevitably, some train going somewhere will have to stop or the switcher will have to duck into the yard to let it pass. If it is a busy yard and main, the switcher would have to duck into the yard often and the entire railroad would lose efficiency. The railroad would likely find it beneficial to invest in more track, like a drill track separate from the main. On a layout, having to occasionally duck into the yard to avoid a train might be considered challenging. Having to do it over and over again, would likely be considered annoying, so modelers may want to design a separate drill track into the layout.
I think the concept of fouling the main mostly applies to large yards where a switcher must take a gawd awful amount of time to make up or break down trains. Inevitably, some train going somewhere will have to stop or the switcher will have to duck into the yard to let it pass. If it is a busy yard and main, the switcher would have to duck into the yard often and the entire railroad would lose efficiency. The railroad would likely find it beneficial to invest in more track, like a drill track separate from the main.
On a layout, having to occasionally duck into the yard to avoid a train might be considered challenging. Having to do it over and over again, would likely be considered annoying, so modelers may want to design a separate drill track into the layout.
A big part of my concern is that I am one of those lone wolf operators.
That is in large part why I am expressing concern over this issue and trying to do what I can to keep switch operations separate from main line through trains.
If you are seriously considering adding a second spur to hold the local while aother trains pass, that means you have already determined that there is enough space on the layout to do so, right?
Why not just close the other end of that proposed long spur and make it a passing siding? I think the unprototypical part of the long second spur would be the need to back an entire train on to it. Not to mention possible deraliments with the models.
If it was a siding, the local could park the train out of the way, then make its occupancy of the main rather short and quick while it swaps out a few cars.
- Douglas
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Without at least one other operator and without a dispatcher, I am at risk of running trains into one another if I am also fouling the main line with switching operations. While I can fully appreciate your just concerns about having a collision I can't help but ask.. What's so important about running 2 trains at time on the mains? Why not just one train and your local? I did that on my N Scale 36" x 80" DC HCD layout and had fun. LOL Totally fair question, Larry. The answer is that I started out anal 10 years ago with a roundy round concept. Make a big loop and run trains. That got boring quick, so I added a second main line with crossovers and started running trains in two directions around the double main line. That took a little longer to get bored, but that too happened soon enough. So I started creating freight yards, coach yards, sidings and spurs. Now, I want to get into operations, but I am having a hard time giving up the roundy round concept. Save me from myself, if you can. Rich
No need to be saved, IMO. I went through great effort to turn my long point to point into a continuous run, just to have the roundy round option.
Round and round the little train goes...
LION has a point to loop layout with a run of nine scale miles. Him has two independent loops a little over two miles each. The loops have single train sets that run continual, the main line, the local from 242nd Street to South Ferry and back again takes about 20 minutes, and I dispatch trains every five minutes. I can have up to eight rains all moving at one time. The trains are automated (with the flower of 1940s technology) and run by themselves, LION gets to operate the interlocking tower at 242nd Street.
But let me tell you, it is awesome to watch the system running. Videos will be forthcoming (sometime).
There is little or no other switching that occurs on my layout, but I do have a fleet of "C Division" trains, (The Money Train, The Signal Dolly, The Refuse Train, and other work trains) that make their appearance during the night time hours. Letting them on to the line is not much of a problem since they can follow a minute behind a scheduled train, but they must make stops and do their work, and after a time the next train will catch up to them and they will either have to get out of the way or delay the passenger train. Actually C Div trains do both, on my layout there are not many pockets to stick them in, so they will have to run ahead of the next train, and then come back and continue their work.
Trains on the Route of the Broadway LION do not (and cannot) run in reverse. The power is hard wired for forward operation only.
LION has invented (in his mind--such as it is) a system of track detection that is with in the means of a LION, and him has to plan this out to see if it will work.
Bottom LION: Enjoy the trains! You *will* work it out!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
dehusmanThey have to stop and flag all grade crossings and they are limited to a low speed, such as 20 mph.
On the PRR the engineer would slow down and the brakeman protecting the shove would swing off walk ahead and flag the crossing then swing back on as the car passed..IF the crossing was protected by gates or flashers there was no need to flag.
However,we would avoid such moves since was easier to switch the industry on our return trip to the yard.
There was a urban industrial branch that didn't have a simple run around.This branch was switched with the engine in the middle of the train with a cabin on both ends.We left and returned the yard that way as well since it was only 3 miles to the yard.
BRAKIE richhotrain It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up? Rich,First there is no problem. What would I do? The same thing I did when I worked on the railroad.We stopped and switched out cars at the industry just like they do today and will for years to come as long as that industry requires rail service and their are thousands of such industries located along the main lines. Its ok to foul the main when there is work to perform and did you know there are thousands of small outlaying yards that uses the mainline as a yard lead? This way why I caution everybody about what they read in layout books,operation books or magazine articles written by so called "experts" that has no real clue of every day railroading.
richhotrain It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up?
It is my fourth industry that raises a problem. It is a single track spur off the main line. What do you do in that case if you have cars to be dropped off and cars to be picked up?
Rich,First there is no problem.
What would I do?
The same thing I did when I worked on the railroad.We stopped and switched out cars at the industry just like they do today and will for years to come as long as that industry requires rail service and their are thousands of such industries located along the main lines.
Its ok to foul the main when there is work to perform and did you know there are thousands of small outlaying yards that uses the mainline as a yard lead?
This way why I caution everybody about what they read in layout books,operation books or magazine articles written by so called "experts" that has no real clue of every day railroading.
A good point, indeed, Brakie. I lived in a small "whistle stop" town and the local way freight would switch cars at the feed mill along the main. They would do this several times a week, when necessary. Further, there was no siding available for the train to park on while performing switching operations. This was a double track main with a crossover close by, so if there was a train coming through on that track, they could go "into the hole" on the other (east bound) track. That didn't happen too often however, as the dispatcher coordinated traffic so as to minimize these conflicts.
richhotrain when you are running a local up and down the main line, spotting cars and picking up cars, do you eventually wind up with cars both at the front and the rear of the engine? Rich
when you are running a local up and down the main line, spotting cars and picking up cars, do you eventually wind up with cars both at the front and the rear of the engine?
This is a good place to put in a comment about the difference between the prototype and ops that also draws the two back together.
In real life, there were both rules (in the rule book) and simple facilitation of movement over the road (just makes sense) that Paulus has already noted as far as line of sight and safety.
On the layout, operators often face the fact there little need for the engineer to see (he's got YOUR eyes to depend on, right? ) and the fact it's usually not far to the next station (like 2 feet sometimes? on some layouts) so it takes little time off the clock to get there (even if it's a slow clock.)
The solution to most of that? Use the need to get everything back in proper order to hit the road between stations as a sort of marker between "working station A" and the local's passage onward to "working station B." Once you've done that, then your train is permitted to move on down the line. It makes a nice mental marker of exactly where you're at in your sequence/schedule.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
For Brakies eyes only (?) a pic from the 20's.
The engine is on the spur to the choclate factory, which is a block further down the road. The first part of it is used as a yard lead. The cute steamer is performing a run-around move. I've never seen the old freighthouse myself; later this area was used for the coffee-filter plant. The number of 35 ft two-axle cars is really staggering.
The track along the platform is for commuter trains, the track just beside it is dedicated to trains passing along at speed. As always lots of pics of passenger train operation are available; freight traffic brought in the money, though it was obviously not glamerous enough.
BTW Rich, excuses for stealing your thread
Cool! Lots of working room..
Thanks for posting the photo.Still like to have railfan there back in the day-the smell of chocolate would drive me batty.
Paulus Jas For Brakies eyes only (?) a pic from the 20's. BTW Rich, excuses for stealing your thread.
BTW Rich, excuses for stealing your thread.
I have a suggestion. I drew my entire layout using the Anyrail program. I then imported that plan into a second program called Train Player. (You can draw a plan using TP, but Anyrail seemed easier to me.)
I was then able to operate my layout using Train Player, using the exact locomotives and rolling stock I have/plan to get.
You'd be shocked how many things, big and little, you'll find that should be tweaked. Maybe that cardboard box industry needs to service 2 other industries but only has room for one boxcar - and you want to fill two for two industries. Maybe a section of track, extended an inch or two now can accomondate an additional freight car? I'm telling you, I learned a lot.
And the best part? I can operate my home layout, on my laptop, any time or place I want.
-Ed
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." -Aristotle