I inherited a 4x8 fully built up layout that is 20+ yrs old.
Brass, code 100 track, in sections (not custom laid) all cars have hook and horn couplers, layout is dual loop with 4 sidings.
First of all I have been told the hook and horns could be causing some trouble so I am slowly converting them all.
Seems like the cars de-rail at switches. Making sure they are in the correct configuration for the direction I am running, it seems like they still are having trouble in these areas. Basically i dont have derailements in the rest of the layout.
Is it possible to have two or three switches too close together causing too many changes of direction?
I used a track gauge on the layout and dont notice any obvious issues. But I dont know how to gauge the switch areas properly.
Im trying to minimize my costs of course.
Should I just buy new switches and change out the old ones?
What else should I know?
Trying to get it running reliably so my kids dont lose interest in this new hobby.
Thanks!
If you have a train going through two or more turnouts at once it could be subjected to the dreaded 'S' curve. Example: A curve to the left suddenly changing to a curve to the right with no transition. Ideally a piece of straight track as long as the longest car going through the curve should be at the point where the curve changes from one direction to the other.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Joe Staten Island West
It may be best to purchase and to insert new turnouts, but if they are back-to-back and force cars past the ends of their coupler swing, nothing you do will help. You may have to redesign that area, or either modify the coupler attachments or run shorter cars.
Crandell
Some other possible issues:
Make sure the wheels are in gauge, the NMRA stndards gauge will check this as well as the track.
If only some of the cars have a problem, then it's probably the cars. If they all have the problem then it's probably the switch (also called turnout).
If it only happens when backing, do you have talgo trucks - that is are the couplers mounted on and turn with the truck. Talgo trucks have problems with derailments when backing up.
Are your cars too light? NMRA RP20.1 recommends HO cars be 1 oz + 1/2 oz per inch of car.
If it's only long cars derailing then your switches may be too tight for them.
Check that the switches are flat as well as in gauge.
Make sure the switch point is tight against the rail in both positions.
Do all 4 wheels of each truck touch the track - all the time, if not replace it.
Do the trucks swivel freely.
Read this article on MR's site.
Good luck
Paul
Are the wheel sets in gauge?
Are the couplers body or truck mount. Body mount is better on freight cars.
Yes, the couplers should be changed.
What brand switches are you using? Old brass tyco and lifelike switches were trouble. Atlas is OK.
A diagram would help us determine if you have a S curve or similar layout problem.
Jim
Welcome,
With such an old layout, and not knowing how it was stored or the use/ abuse it may have seen, there could be issues w/ the points not moving easily or throwing completely. Hopefully they are old Atlas snap switches, They were Ok, not the greatest by today's standards, but worked great for many modeler for quite a number of years. As stated, it is a good idea to check that the wheels aren't "picking" the points and that they move freely. Replacing the couplers, checking that wheels are in guage and also adding some extra weight to the cars may solve the derailments. If you do have the back to back "S" going on, i would address this as mentioned.
Hopefully you can solve the troubles to have the children enjoy hours of trouble free running.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
The only turnout derailments I've experienced have been due to couplers hanging up on the gaurd rails when going through the diverging (curved portions).
All the previous responses are great information. I have personally learned a recent lesson regarding wheels being in gauge, as one assumes equipment is ready to go, but such is not always the case. Also, if it is the same cars over and over, when checking wheels, check for bent axles too. They will cause a wide/narrow situation with each revolution and be problematic in turnouts!
Good luck! Duane
If possible try getting rid of those old turnouts and replace them with a longer lead... i have almost completely replaced all of my turnouts to #6's just because i like running 60' plus cars, and like running 6 axle modern diesels.... no problems on my back to back turnouts or S curves...
Army National Guard E3MOS 91BI have multiple scales nowZ, N, HO, O, and G.
jeffrey-wimberly If you have a train going through two or more turnouts at once it could be subjected to the dreaded 'S' curve. Example: A curve to the left suddenly changing to a curve to the right with no transition. Ideally a piece of straight track as long as the longest car going through the curve should be at the point where the curve changes from one direction to the other.
Jeff,There are times you can use switches in that fashion without issues like on a small ISL where speed isn't a factor or a yard ladder.
I agree with high speed running one needs to avoid such configurations.
Heres a example of a yard ladder using Atlas #4 C83 switches.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hey nscaler, didn't know how to PM but your signature line caught my attention! Hooah!
Duane- Army National Guard E-6, MOS 88M3O, 1404th Transportation Co., AZ
kgillBrass, code 100 track, in sections (not custom laid) all cars have hook and horn couplers, layout is dual loop with 4 sidings.
Duane, my first question is do the car have metal axles or plastic? When I first got started I bought a lot of cheap Life Like engines and rolling stock. At first, things where fine, then I started having derailing problems. What had happen is the plastic axles had started to warp, and derailment after derailment.
Flip the rolling stock over and give the wheels a spin, any of them warped?
If the wheels are in gauge look to see in the wheel flanges line up!
If they are like the picture above, they will track on straight and turns, but when they come to a turnout, they pick and derail! If they are not straight, try flipping the wheel set one set at a time, 85% of the time that will fix the problem.
If the axles are metal with plastic wheels, you can adjust them so they are straight across.
Adding weights to the cars all so helps a lot. NMRA standers are.
1/2 oz per inch of car plus 1/2oz
Car is 5 inches long so take 5 X .5 + .5 = 3oz. I uses stick on wheel weights.
Hope that was of a little help, and good luck.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Every suggestion given here to resolve your issue is spot on. i would add one more, I spent the weekend doing routine maintenance and cleaning on rolling stock. I found one car where the wheelsets had too much side to side play within the bolster - almost like they were worn - so I replaced the entire truck. Coupler trip pins can get hung up as the car goes through a turnout and I found a couple that needed re-adjustment.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
kgill I inherited a 4x8 fully built up layout that is 20+ yrs old. Brass, code 100 track, in sections (not custom laid) all cars have hook and horn couplers, layout is dual loop with 4 sidings. First of all I have been told the hook and horns could be causing some trouble so I am slowly converting them all. Seems like the cars de-rail at switches. Making sure they are in the correct configuration for the direction I am running, it seems like they still are having trouble in these areas. Basically i dont have derailements in the rest of the layout. Is it possible to have two or three switches too close together causing too many changes of direction? I used a track gauge on the layout and dont notice any obvious issues. But I dont know how to gauge the switch areas properly. Im trying to minimize my costs of course. Should I just buy new switches and change out the old ones? What else should I know? Trying to get it running reliably so my kids dont lose interest in this new hobby. Thanks!
Any turnout should be fixable. You shouldn't have to buy new ones. Common causes of trouble at turnouts:
1. The coupler "gladhand" is too low and catches on the switch rails. Couplers can be mounted too low, or droop in loose boxes. Eyeball your cars from track level, anything sticking down below the railheads will derail your train.
2. Points (the movable rail) not snugging up against the stock rail. If the point is sticking out it will catch a wheel and you are on the ground. Many times you have to file the ends of the points to a sharp edge. Or the switch machine isn't pulling the points hard over. Sometimes the switch machine is misaligned so it pulls properly one way but leaves the points loose the other way. Check for crud buildup behind the points that prevents them from closing fully.
3. Guard rails or wing rails too loose or too tight. The guard rails are supposed to bear on the back of the wheel, to keep wheel set rolling along the stock rail, and keeping the far side flange from hitting the point of the frog. The NMRA gauge has stubs and notches to check for proper width of the flangeway too narrow and the flange gets stuck, too wide and the nearside flange will hit the frog.
4. Flangeways too shallow, the flange hits the bottom of the flangeway and gets pushed up and over the rail head. A bit of hacksaw blade will deepen them.
Good luck.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
The more experience one has in the hobby the easier it is to determine what is going wrong. I had a couple of trouble spots that I just couldn't figure out though. What I did was set up the video camera for a close in look and ran the video frame by frame on the big screen TV. I picked up the problem instantly and easily corrected it.
There are a multitude of possibilities when tracking down problems with derailing trains. The video camera can be a good tool.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN The more experience one has in the hobby the easier it is to determine what is going wrong. I had a couple of trouble spots that I just couldn't figure out though. What I did was set up the video camera for a close in look and ran the video frame by frame on the big screen TV. I picked up the problem instantly and easily corrected it. There are a multitude of possibilities when tracking down problems with derailing trains. The video camera can be a good tool.
Hmmmmm, why haven't I thought of that?
Rich
Alton Junction
That IS a good idea.
I determined a few things thanks to all of your help.
Some of the cars have wheels that are out of gauge so I plan on replacing the nonadustable ones.
a few cars are underweight and ill adjust, thanks for the formula, very helpful
for some reason the black plastic centers of the turnouts (not sure how to describe them - the part that continues the rail without being a rail) seem to be causing trouble, but not sure thats the trouble, just seems that is where things go bad.
the thin brass moving part (the frog??) gets split by the wheels for some reason. the cars forward trucks goes through the switch but the rear wheels go to the other track even though the switch does not tell it to. Cant figure that one out at all. Maybe replace the turnout?
I am using vintage ATLAS turnouts and mostly throw them via electric ATLAS switch gear.
IF i replace the turnouts, which is the best?
I definately have turnouts too close together. So I am going to see how to reconfigure to give some breathing room. I think it will be relatively easy but messy.
I did notice that my layout is egg shaped. HOW DO I POST AN IMAGE OF MY LAYOUT SO I CAN EXPLAIN AND SHOW THE PROBLEM HERE?
instead of the outer loop occupying the outer edges of the table all the way around, about 3/4 of the layout does, but on the final curve a siding was installed on the outer edge corner. It makes it easy as it places a marshaling siding if you will in front of the operator position. but in order to make this work the curves on that end of the layout had to be tightened to allow for room. This brings the parallel straights of the double loops heading in slightly towards the center of the board, to jog around the siding and make the turnout work properly. This forces a slight jog or curve to bring everything back in line with the upcoming curve that is at the outer edge of the table. This slight jog happens to be amongst three turnouts. Funny enough not the most problematic area but now I see whats going on. Thinking about re-tracking this. But I like the marshaling siding on the outside... Hmmmm.
kgillthe thin brass moving part (the frog??) gets split by the wheels for some reason. the cars forward trucks goes through the switch but the rear wheels go to the other track even though the switch does not tell it to. Cant figure that one out at all. Maybe replace the turnout?
Make sure the glad hand portion (the magnetic wire) of the coupler isn't hanging too low. You mentioned before that something was hanging up going through the turnout and that would do it. A coupler height guage would help you out here, as it also allows you to check for proper clearance of the glad hand, which can be bent out of the way if too low.
To add to Jeff's assessment of the point issues, since these are quite old brass, check the rivet hinge, brass oxidation may have them a little stiff and not allowing free enough movement a dab of conductive lube couldn't hurt. Work them vigorously until free. If really stiff you may try a drop of penetrating oil. The sw machines may not have enough trow pressure to keep the point tight against the rail also.
One other thing that can happen is a wheelset is actually lifting over the rails before it reaches the turnout, but still holding pretty much in line. A slight kink at a rail joint or a sudden dip in the track could cause this. Everything still appears normal unless you check each wheel's position closely. When the wheelset reaches the turnout the diverging rail pulls the wheelset, and truck, into a full derailment. But the more common causes are those already mentioned.
John