I'm finishing up the mainline ballasting and structure placements in my classification yard. I need to resolve some questions before I can nail it down-so to speak.
I' hope to have a Walther's Cornerstone Ice House with the icing platforms across the track from the house - to serve two tracks at the same time.
To fit, I'll need to start the lst of the two supplied platforms at approx. a 3rd of the way down line of the ice house's centerline.
The 2nd platform-attatched so it would extend past the right hand side of the ice house by at least a platform's length. (Put another way, the two black platform bases would butt up at a point about one thrid of the way to the right of the house's left corner.)
2 Walther's Cornerstone Kit SPECIFIC questions:
l. Would the ice house doors HAVE to align with the openings in the existing railings, which are directly across from the drop door ramps (that the ice slides down into the reefers)? Can I simply change the railings on the ice house side so that they have their openings moved to align with most of the drop door ramps?
2. If a house door doesn't come near end of the platform or not at all on the 2nd platform I mentioned...) would it have been considered ok to slide the blocks "to the left" 15'-40 on the platform decking to get it to the drop door loading ramps & reefers -or use an on deck conveyor?
If the conveyor is the answer a detail brand/part would be helpful to look into.or one that you've used?
4. How close to the tie ends can either/both of the icing platforms get? I've seen about 1/2" left between the tie ends and the platforms so that the drop door/ramps could extend over the reefer hatches. But I could model the ramps in their "up" positions if need be. I presume the ramps being higher than the rolling stock it wouldn't really matter? How close can the ramps' roofs' edges get to the rolling stock for adequate clearance?
One can tell only so much from the kit's box. Dr. Wayne. I know you've worked a lot with this kit with some kit bashing. I thought I'd try appealing to you specifically along with the other folks from former ice house threads. I've looked at smaller ice houses but need something imposing like the cornerstone kit.
Many Thanks as always!
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
We have one of those Walthers ice houses on our HO scale club layout. What you are proposing to do with the platforms seems to be unrealistic. Ice houses were always built for maximum efficiency on moving ice from storage into reefer bunkers with very little wasted motion on the part of employees. Even so, having to stop for reicing every 100 miles or so was extremely costly and time-consuming for railroads.
But at this stage in the game, unless your layout is visited by someone who actually worked in an ice house, which is highly unlikely, who's going to know the difference? I think the last of the ice bunker reefers disappeared from the rails in the 1960s or 1970s when trucks began to take away the refrigerated delivery of perishables, and the railroads did little to fight the change.
I built my Walthers ice house with the building almost at one end of the platform, then used an add-on platform kit to make it a more prototypical length. Ideally, I would have liked the ice house at roughly the mid-point of the lengthened platform, but there was insufficient space available:
I'm not sure I understand the exact layout you have in mind for the platforms, Jim, but if you're going to place one (or both) across the track from the icehouse, you'll need a way to get the ice to it. The Walthers platforms have a chain-type conveyor moulded onto the side of the deck nearest the ice house, so the deck style is not really suited to icing cars along both of its sides - step into the conveyor chain and you're an unemployed worker with crutches, if you're lucky. If you put one platform section by the ice house doors, then extended in only one direction, it would project beyond the end of the ice house, allowing for a track along either side, with one of them ending, of course, before the end of the ice house. In the photo below, the second track would be where the access road is. That still doesn't address the issue with the conveyor, but you could possibly widen the platform along the side with the conveyor. If you're using the roof, it might need to be altered, or you could model the second track as a more recent one, un-roofed. If you could provide a sketch of what you're planning, I might be of more assistance.
Capt. Grimek l. Would the ice house doors HAVE to align with the openings in the existing railings, which are directly across from the drop door ramps (that the ice slides down into the reefers)? Can I simply change the railings on the ice house side so that they have their openings moved to align with most of the drop door ramps?
No, you install the railings wherever you need them, and leave out sections where they're not required. The conveyor is the problem when trying to service two tracks from the same platform, so it's not simply a matter of omitting railing and replacing it with the drop doors.
Capt. Grimek 2. If a house door doesn't come near end of the platform or not at all on the 2nd platform I mentioned...) would it have been considered ok to slide the blocks "to the left" 15'-40 on the platform decking to get it to the drop door loading ramps & reefers -or use an on deck conveyor? If the conveyor is the answer a detail brand/part would be helpful to look into.or one that you've used?
As I've noted, you get the conveyor as part of the platform. It's inclusion implies to me that it should be right at the doors so that the ice can be slid out of the house and directly onto it. You could model an older type platform without a conveyor and you may want to look at Tichy's Ice Station (simply click on the part no. 7014, 7015, and 7016 for more info). It's unclear to me if there's a conveyor or not.
Capt. Grimek 4. How close to the tie ends can either/both of the icing platforms get? I've seen about 1/2" left between the tie ends and the platforms so that the drop door/ramps could extend over the reefer hatches. But I could model the ramps in their "up" positions if need be. I presume the ramps being higher than the rolling stock it wouldn't really matter? How close can the ramps' roofs' edges get to the rolling stock for adequate clearance?
My platforms' moulded footings are 4'6" HO from the tie ends. I chose this distance because I didn't want to cement the platforms in place, preferring to leave them operational. Unfortunately, they don't always remain in the raised position, and this distance prevents them from being clipped when cars are being spotted or pulled. I later added chains to keep them from dropping too far, but by then, the scenery had fixed the structure in place. This places the lowered platforms just short of the cars' roof. My thought is that a block of ice could be shoved over the gap and into the bunker with little problem, but it may or may not be prototypical. In any case, the real platforms wouldn't have extended too far over the car or the hatches couldn't have been opened. They also used extension planks (I modelled them, but will have to take a photo, which I'll add when it's available) in order to get the ice over the roof walks and into the far bunkers.There is a plank in this photo, but the workers appear to be on strike and it's still laying on the platform:
Wayne
This is a shot I took of my Walthers kit before everything was quite finished, as you can see from the lifting roof which has since been glued down:
The ramps all mount so that they are free to move up and down, so you aren't stuck with one position. There is a railing at the back of the ramp, which I painted black with a yellow top rail for safety. This railing runs the length of the platform. I noticed that I never bothered to cut it where the tall doors meet the platform. So, I guess the answer to that question is that you can cut the railing wherever you'd like to position the platform.
Running the entire length of the platform, shortly in front of the railing, is a molded-on chain in a slot, used for dragging the ice down the platform. They did that part for you.
I positioned the ramps down for this picture, but normally I have them up. As shown, they are pretty close to the car roof and would likely interfere with a locomotive if it had to go past the ice house on the siding to spot a car.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The Tichy Icing Platform has a conveyor molded into the centre of the platform. It can be built as either single or double track.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks, Dave, that's good to know, as it's more suited to a two track installation than the Walthers version.
For the same price as the Walthers one, you could also get the JL Innovative kit:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/361-191
From the looks of it, it's a far more interesting structure. If I'd known about it, I would have gone with this one instead. Has anyone built this kit?
Thank you everyone for your quick replies. Dr. Wayne I've kind of followed your lead with the platforms extending past the house itself. Mr. Beasley, your pic provided some valuable reinforcement surrounding my doubts about the house loading doors NOT being directly in line with the platform loading ramps, rather they're being slightly offset (close to one or more platform roof posts) instead- once the additional "bit" is taken off the end to attatch two or more platforms together.
Last night, I think I may have finalized this structure's placement but the fact that, laying the roof piece flat on the benchwork just behind the platform bases and NOT having the house doors in line with the platform doors/ramps perplexed me. On the box lid it looked like they should. They DO if one does not remove the little "bit" but then there would be the issue of the extra platform frame...
Now that I see they aren't meant to be in line (?) I feel better about proceeding with the placement planning.
***How close can the front wall of the house be to the track for train clearance? I am presuming that the loading ramps from the platform will need to stop with their leading edges just shy of the reefer hatches?
The instructions do not show the placement of the house AND the platforms or the "joining" thereof which would have been helpful. In fact the house and platforms are depicted on two separate pages.
Cacole, I hear ya. I just like to try for prototypical set ups whenever I possibly can seeing as this is going to be an Ops based layout but ya gotta do what ya gotta do sometimes.
I really appreciate your help guys! This is the last structure to be placed on my secondary main running through the classification yard and I'd like to get this bit of my little world finished.
I'll watch for a Tichy kit at train shows. $175-195 is a bit rich for me to gain a conveyor system at new prices! I'll peruse the latest Walther's catalog for detail parts conveyors or really burly ice loaders!
Capt. Grimek ***How close can the front wall of the house be to the track for train clearance? I am presuming that the loading ramps from the platform will need to stop with their leading edges just shy of the reefer hatches? The instructions do not show the placement of the house AND the platforms or the "joining" thereof which would have been helpful. In fact the house and platforms are depicted on two separate pages.
I don't recall the construction sequence or the method of joining the platform to the building. However, a quick check showed the trackside wall of the ice house to be 15'6" from the near ends of the ties. This places the dropped-down platforms roughly at the edge of the cars' eaves.
Capt. Grimek I'll watch for a Tichy kit at train shows. $175-195 is a bit rich for me to gain a conveyor system at new prices! I'll peruse the latest Walther's catalog for detail parts conveyors or really burly ice loaders!
Tichy shows a price for the 36" long platform HERE to be just under fifty bucks.
Thanks again Wayne. I don't have a way to post a sketch yet. But, your detailed description(s) in your post above answered my questions nicely! Yes, you correctly understood my conveyor belt orientation. It is that l-o-n-g parallel to the house and track conveyor "assembly" detail part(s) I'm looking for to see what might work.
I'm most likely going to have to cut off 1/2 to 3/4" of the rear of the house to fit it into the existing "lot".
Your pics have been of great help there as well.
Once this side of the layout is mostly finished (another year maybe...) I'll get a photobucket account so I can post pics and sketches.
Edit/addendum: Oh yeah, thanks for the measurements and the link. I'll have to find a Tichy version to see what that conveyor belt system looks like, in person. I'll hunt around the 'net and see if I can find a birdseye shot somewhere.
The molded-on conveyer on the Walthers kit is pretty simple. You could model it easily with a couple of thin styrene or wood strips (about 1mm x 1mm) placed about 1 mm apart, with a piece of chain running between them. On the kit, there are small protrusions about every inch to grab the ice blocks. That's it.
Capt. Grimek .....I'm most likely going to have to cut off 1/2 to 3/4" of the rear of the house to fit it into the existing "lot".
.....I'm most likely going to have to cut off 1/2 to 3/4" of the rear of the house to fit it into the existing "lot".
For the Walthers kit (or pretty-well any structure with a peaked roof running parallel to the tracks or edge of the layout), you can easily get away with lopping-off the back almost to the peak of the roof. The little bit left beyond the peak seems to suggest more depth better than if chopped off at the peak or on the near side of it.
Another space saver, especially useful near a corner of the room, is to make the cut on an angle:
...the same structure as seen from the normally un-viewable end:
Locating the ice house away from the platform was common, what you need is an ice bridge, i'm not aware of a commercial source but you could kitbash one from several Atlas N scale truss bridges, add conveyor detail and a machinery room, PFE specified a minium 23 foot clearance from the top of the railhead when an ice bridge were employed, you will also need a elevator shed to hoist and drop the ice between the various levels.
To your ice house you would require the following additons: platform with walkways, stairs and machinery room added where the existing door is now, the bridge connects to the house at this point, hence the support platform would be substanial in construction, steel being a popular material.
Depending on the distance to be spanned, some intermidiate support of the span may be required, these too were built up from wood or steel, similar to techniques employed in trestle construction, mandatory were walkways and safety railings, ladders were avoided and stairs employed throughout, wood was the favored material for these walkways. Most favored a cantalevered design that avoided the necessity of support spans, often the were moveable to supply ice for off rail use or for top icing directly into a car not spotted at the platform.
No matter how one does it, the bridge will end up several feet higher where it meets the platform, an intermidiate span set up from 10 to 45 degrees and 90 degrees to the main structure will allow it to drop to platform height (use those Atlas N scale trusses here as well) you have some options, space permiting, you can split the conveyor at this juncture and descend a second chain conveyor incline down to a door hight ice unloading platform, this is were the aforemention ice elevators come into play, you would need to make this span wide enough the include 3 chain conveyors plus walkways on either side.
Thanks very much Dave. I wasn't aware of the ice bridges. That sounds, indeed what I'm needing to model if the ice house stays where I'm trying to squeeze it in.
I've googled for images of ice bridges and found a few but they're mostly out of the pics I've found so far. (Just a few feet showing with no overall design or concept apparent.
If you have a link or pics of your own ice bridge that would be most helpful. I'll keep looking online in the meanwhile. MRC a few issues back had a two part article on ice harvesting and houses, I'll look into those issues too.
IF I move it, I can build it as Walthers shows on the box, but I'd like to see if I can make it work as Plan A lst.
Captain,
Check out this book for lots of photos of Ice plants and platforms:
http://www.goldenspike.us/ci_8779.html
Most of the questions about how far from the tracks etc are answered in the book. Borrow it from the library if you don't want to buy. I have referred to it many times for various questions regarding PFE/fruit operations.
This reference has an article on pre-cooling sheds with some drawings and photos as well as lots of other prototype info:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dKFMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA725&lpg=PA725&dq=pre-+cooling+shed+PFE&source=bl&ots=IQJ7SSfJK1&sig=vxVJuapJHMtNvIMiyD_Pf5W1NQg&hl=en&ei=9V3iTon9B6rliALM4OGTDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Thank you, Guy. This looks like interesting reading. Great photos. I'll see if my library can get it vie inter-library transfer.
Capt. Grimek:
Here are a couple of shots of the Tichy platform. If you click on the yellow line below the picture you should get a fairly clear view.
Thanks Dave! I appreciated the additional PM.
Captain!
Glad to have been of assistance!