The multi-delayed UP 4-12-2, delayed twice this year already, is now listed as 'tba'. I expect it to take a place on the shelf of 'never was' with the Great Northern S-2 4-8-4.
Too bad.
Crandell
tba=never to be seen again.....
Meh...I am really not surprised...the 4-12-2 would have been a real rail tester for most of us I think..
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
It would have been nice to have, but not really very practical for most of us. Mine would have spent most of its life in a display case of UP power. Looks like the GP9 wins in models as well as real life :-)
Hmm--too bad. There's only two UP steamers I'd ever want to own, and the 4-12-2 was one of them. The other is the 2-8-8-0 "Bulldog". Maybe someone will come out with that one, at least.
Oh well--(sigh)
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Too bad about the 4-12-2 ...but my NYC Steel boxcars have been moved up a month to September. Sweet!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
My guess is that they don't have enough pre-orders to go ahead and start production.
Rich
Alton Junction
BLI's delivery schedule is written in pencil. I noticed a third run of Centipedes but the I1sa is not in the near future. The 4-12-2 is too long a wheel base for most layouts. Like a large articulated it looks really silly and toy like even on broad curves. My 2-10-4 J1 gets jammed on scenery at the clubs layout. The front overhangs so far it trims trees and tunnel portals.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
If someone is planning to manufacture another big mallet, why not make one that actually would work on a model railroad??
The AT&SF class 3300 "Prairie mallets", and then the 4 specimens with the hinged boiler!
Not only practical in model (as it was a disaster in reality....) but also functional on small radiuses!
(picture from "Steam locomotive.com")
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Weren't they supposed to produce a USRA light Pacific a few years back? I was looking forward to kitbashing one to resemble the BR&P locomotives as they appeared after the B&O takeover in 1932:
I'm still waiting for a decent light pacific from one of these guys. I know Athearn Genesis did a nice one a few years ago, but their pretty hard to get, and they had gear problems, not to mention they weren't equipped with DCC or sound.
-Stan
richhotrain My guess is that they don't have enough pre-orders to go ahead and start production. Rich
That's not a manufacturing business, its a custom order business.
Sheldon
Excellent to see the next run of PRR T1's announced. I wish they'd finalize the Shark announcement and make it official already.
Hi!
I've got 10 BLI locos - all with DCC/Sound - and they are great!
But their "arrival projections" are really off base. I recall waiting for the ATSF 4-8-4 for about two years, about 1 1/2 year after the original projection date. A similar wait is now going on for the "modern" ATSF 2-10-2. The wait - for which there may or may not be valid reasons - is understandable to a point. But what (IMHO) is just wrong is not keeping "us" updated.
I would much rather them say they need to get x quantity of pre-orders before they give the Chinese the go ahead to manufacture, or tell us the thing is still on paper, or whatever. Just give us some quality info!
Ha, it must be my old fashioned ways........... Can you believe I actually expect people/companies to follow through with what they say? How quaint!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Do we need to rehash this? If they don't get enough pre-orders to pay for the tooling and production costs they aren't going to do the model. Period. This is sound business sense. Why should they spend $50k making a loco and only sell $25k worth of them? You notice that after their first few locos where they learned a hard lesson, there aren't very many available to sell at close out prices. They made so many of their first runs that they ended up selling them off for 50% off or more, and it really hurt them. We can conplain all we want about the preorder process but the days of everyone just making umpteen thousand of everythign and letting it sit in inventory are over, I don't CARE what Bachmann does, they are the ONLY ones still doing it that way. And I suspect if you really check their production runs are MUCH smaller than they used to be.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Do we need to rehash this? If they don't get enough pre-orders to pay for the tooling and production costs they aren't going to do the model. Period. This is sound business sense. Why should they spend $50k making a loco and only sell $25k worth of them? You notice that after their first few locos where they learned a hard lesson, there aren't very many available to sell at close out prices. They made so many of their first runs that they ended up selling them off for 50% off or more, and it really hurt them. We can conplain all we want about the preorder process but the days of everyone just making umpteen thousand of everythign and letting it sit in inventory are over, I don't CARE what Bachmann does, they are the ONLY ones still doing it that way. And I suspect if you really check their production runs are MUCH smaller than they used to be. --Randy
How come Bachmann, Athearn, Walthers, and a list of others don't have these problems? And I"ve never had a problem buying an Intermountain F unit when I wanted one? Bowser has trains on the shelf "for sale"? Why can't BLI do this?
OK, Walthers may only bring a limited number of some items to market - and when they are gone, they are gone.
But as I said before - this is not manufacturing it is custom building. If they don't have the money to be in the manufacturing business they should get out - stop devaluing their own product, and the rest of the market by dumping what they can't sell quickly, and leave this market to those who can supply it.
This business model hurts the hobby in several ways:
It makes it harder for them to get a fair price for the next model they release. I surely won't pay more than 60% of list for ANY future or current BLI product - why should I? Every one I have ever bought was eventually available at that price?
It makes it harder for outher manufacturers to ask a fair price.
It discourages both new and long term modelers who are not "flush with cash" to grab these things up when they first come out.
It breeds more of this unnecessary duplication type competition from other manufacturers who think they can get "one up" - (MTH)
It fosters the "we only make large, high end, high feature" products because of quick return on investment issues.
And to answer your question about why "anyone" should invest in these products - well it works like this: If you build it, build it well, keep the price consistant, service it well, they will sell. Maybe not as quick as you might like - but they will sell and you make a profit on every one - not just break even on the last 10% or 20%. And you will be building a stronger customer base that will buy MORE of the next thing, and more of the current thing once they see that you will not give them away and make the customer feel foolish for paying a fair price. You don't have the money to do that, you should not be in business - I'll bet BLI does not outlive Bachmann or Athearn.
Personally I have no sympathy for BLI and little interest in their hit and miss quality, poor availablity, lack of service parts, same loco made by 3 different factories (with slightly different parts, and various levels of quality) in 6 years, maybe we will make it ,maybe not, dump the leftovers cheap and undermine the dealer network business model.
Not to mention their "maybe we are interested in the DC/non sound market - oh never mind - wait a minute, maybe, oh well, not this time" lack of marketing focus regarding DC or non sound models.
Bachmann announced EM1's - EM1's WILL show up and likely be available for years, at fair and consistant prices - unlike the famous BLI B&O Pacifics. And those EM1's will come with throw away decoders and DC jumpers!
I am leaning toward Sheldon's view of things with respect to BLI. The past three years, while they have had some winners, have been all over the map. It must be due to their being able, on some runs, to get the better assembly plants doing the contract for them. Also, and I am strictly guessing since I know next to nothing about the industry from the point of view of capitalization and bringing models across the pond in containers for retail purposes and distribution, I wonder if BLI has two problems of being able to pay, but also at the better assembly plants where they feel comfortable writing the cheque (check). As Matt has stated on their website, many of their latest releases are brass, and brass is not cheap, nor easy to assemble. For some reason, I think they keep getting bumped in favour of another client.
Does this sound like it is a reasonable assumption?
Of those mentioned, only Bachmann seems to have unlimited quanitites available. CHeck the sold out list at Athearn. Walthers, ditto. Atlas, too. And Bowser - there's very little 'on the shelf', especially with respect to locos. Nearly everything not made int he past year is sold out, and the latest announcements are over a year out now. They FINALLY got the C630's with hi-ad trucks delivered.
It's the trend for ALL manufacturers, not just BLI. ANd it's not JUST because of the economy. With few exceptions, generics just won;t do any more. Bachmann has got themselves in a decent spot building basic catalog steam locos for which being somewhat generic works - and I am also glad no one else is jumping on the same bandwagon, we don't NEED 5 makes of the same loco. We need 5 different locos. I totally believe the EM-1 will be delivered. I just wonder how they will sell a ton of them the way the sell everythign else - the various 4-4-0's, 2-6-0's, etc are generic yet accurate enough to work for many roads, them EM-1 is very specific.
BLI tried with a few - the Reading T-1 is one. They offered it in every possible scheme so it had an appeal for anyone from 1945 right to the present. The only first run ones you find available are people who bought the new ones and want to sell off the old one, but other than the sound and smoke, they are identical mechanisms. My first run one even has a spot on the circuit board by the headlight marked for the smoke generator applied to the later ones. And that's the thing, you don't get them for 60% off when there are leftovers, because there aren't anymore. Clearly they aren't perfect, not by a long shot, but they did learn fro the early mistakes. Maybe it is now more like a custom builder rather than a manufacturer, but it's the trend of ALL, not just BLI. It may not be what you want, it may not be what I want, but if everyone who posts here really reflected the overall industry then why would there be such a trend towards limited production and preordering? I never said I think this is the greatest thing ever to happen for the hobby, I only say that there are reasonable business reasons behind it. Much like the loss of kits and the trend to RTR.
OH - and I wouldn't hold Intermountain up too much either, they recently canceled a few projects due to lack of sufficient preorders. Take it or leave it, it's the way of things today.
I agree about the Bachmann offerings in steam. Although they run well, they are too generic for me. Their 2-6-0, 2-6-2, and 4-6-0 are NOTHING like the NYC prototypes so using them for kitbashing purposes would be more work than it's worth.
While I do like the detailing on the BLIs, I have also become less than enamored with the hit and miss quality issues. And I'm not as keen on the Paragon2 decoders either. The new QSI "Q2" decoders, OTOH, are now exceptional and run as good as if not better than the Loksound decoders.
I have to agree with the "Everyone has this problem" sentiment. I can't track down an undecorated CF7 with a round cab roof or a GP40-2W. Rolling stock too. Like those Atlas 42' coil cars. I feel like I have to buy certain types of rolling stock now or I won't be able to find them in the future when the layout needs them.
If you find the dang steamers as too generic...detail the things yourself then....
tstage I agree about the Bachmann offerings in steam. Although they run well, they are too generic for me. Their 2-6-0, 2-6-2, and 4-6-0 are NOTHING like the NYC prototypes so using them for kitbashing purposes would be more work than it's worth. While I do like the detailing on the BLIs, I have also become less than enamored with the hit and miss quality issues. And I'm not as keen on the Paragon2 decoders either. The new QSI "Q2" decoders, OTOH, are now exceptional and run as good as if not better than the Loksound decoders. Tom
Tom, are you refering to the regular line 2-6-0 and 2-6-2? Yes they are just "generic little train set locos" - even if the quality is good.
The Spectrum 4-6-0, while it may not be correct for the NYC, is an accurate model of a number of Baldwin built locos, including those on the Ma & Pa.
Randy,
The difference with some of those other brands is thay actually bring product to market. OK, some of the other smaller outfits, Bowser, Intermountain, ConCor, have canceled a few projects.
But nobody tries to get the public all hyped up like BLI and then not deliver.
As for Athearn, their production quantities are high like Bachmann, but with both, a lot of the product goes out to the big retailers quickly - I bet you can find most any relatively recent Athearn item with a web search and/or a few phone calls.
The pricing is another issue - EVEN if these others are restricting production to preorders plus a small extra, they are not dumping the last 10% or 20% of stock six months after the release of the product.
Bachmanns deep discounts are from day one, and they virtually never get any deeper. I seldon see Athearn at "clearance prices"? Same with Bowser or Intermountain.
It is not just any one of these issues, it is the whole combined approach of BLI that is a bad business model for this hobby.
And since they seem to have now totally abandoned the DC market, they are off my radar unless they are dirt cheap anyway.
And then there is the quality issue? I should preorder something that for me has had about a 50% dud rate? I think not.
I have nine pieces of BLI motive power, 5 had problems. I have 35 pieces of Bachmann motive power, 3 had problems.
I preordered two of the BLI pieces many years ago (two first run Reading T1's) The only two loco I have preordered from anyone.
I have never preordered a Bachmann loco? Or an Athearn Genesis F unit, or an Intermountain F unit, or a Proto2000 loco and I have dozens of them.
Yes, I realize that, Sheldon. That's why I confined my comments to the "NYC prototypes". While they will work for other railroads (which am I glad about), they won't for the NYC.
It would be fun to have a 10-wheeler on my layout. However, Bachmann's Spectrum present version of the 4-6-0 could not be altered without completely destroying the entire shell, which would make the purchase pretty much moot.
One more thought:
Where does this idea about Bachmann steam locos ALL being generic come from?
The 2-8-0 is somewhat generic, but actually real close to a lot of different Baldwin built consolidations, the regular line 2-6-0 and 2-6-2 are generic.
A few of the Spectrum locos have been lettered for roads that were "close", but all the Spectrum locos, and recent regular line locos, are proto correct for at least most of the road names offered:
USRA 4-8-2 light (owned by various roads)
USRA 4-8-2 heavy - owned by various roads and offered with road specific details in C&O, N&W, SP and others
USRA 2-10-2 - offered with a host of different valve gear, tenders, running boards, and other proto specifric details for the roads offered
Baldwin 4-6-0 - offered in two correct driver sizes and with proto specfic details for Ma & Pa and others
Russian 2-10-0 - again, offered with a host of proto specific details for each roadname offered
PRR K4 4-6-2 - offered in early and late versions, and several special paint schemes at times
N&W "J" 4-8-4 - overed in various versions with number/era specific details
USRA 2-6-6-2 - C&O H5 - and offered with correct details for W&LE, NKP
2-6-6-2 C&O H4 - OK, they fudged the dome locations, other than that a great proto specific model
NKP, C&O & PM 2-8-4's - each has proto correct cabs, tenders, pilots, headilights, and correct dome placements - MTH failed that test
SP GS4
NYC 4-8-4
They all sound like proto specific locos to me. Should I go on? I think the EM1 will be a big hit - for years, not just for 4 months.
There's a very simple reason why Bachmann stuff gets made on time, made in larger numbers, and available at good discounts: Bachmann is owned by Kader.
Kader and Sanda Kan were the two big Chinese companies that made high quality model trains in bulk. Sanda Kan went belly up and was bought by Kader, meaning that Kader is the only game in town for quality model trains in bulk numbers from China. Sure, there are smaller companies out there like Rapido's Maytag company, but they are busy making Rapido's trains and while they'd love to have more business, they aren't currently a large company that can instantly handle larger orders.
Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items get the highest priority at Kader's factories. Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items are available in greater numbers since they don't have to pay someone else to make them nor worry about things that would affect other companies like max/min run numbers, etc. Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items are available at the lowest possible price since they own the darn factory.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3 There's a very simple reason why Bachmann stuff gets made on time, made in larger numbers, and available at good discounts: Bachmann is owned by Kader. Kader and Sanda Kan were the two big Chinese companies that made high quality model trains in bulk. Sanda Kan went belly up and was bought by Kader, meaning that Kader is the only game in town for quality model trains in bulk numbers from China. Sure, there are smaller companies out there like Rapido's Maytag company, but they are busy making Rapido's trains and while they'd love to have more business, they aren't currently a large company that can instantly handle larger orders. Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items get the highest priority at Kader's factories. Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items are available in greater numbers since they don't have to pay someone else to make them nor worry about things that would affect other companies like max/min run numbers, etc. Since Kader owns Bachmann, it only makes sense that Bachmann items are available at the lowest possible price since they own the darn factory. Paul A. Cutler III
All those others are free to build their own factories if they like.
And that situation does not seem to effect Athearn in a negative way.
I sure am glad I do not model UP.
I am glad I do not wait on BLI.
I think ANY of the manufacturers are having such problems.
Their new ideas of delivering product via pre-orders and advanced announcements of deliveries which materialize later and later or NEVER materialize at all under the "Just In Time" or "Only Make What WIll Sell" will kill off some.
I waited with baited breath for the delivery of a Mountain in a particular # of 4 #s to be produced. They produced and delivered only 1 # {and it wasn't mine} and never did release the other 3 #s. I wanted Mountain #6755, like I saw at the PA Railroad Museum in Strasburg PA. on Static display that I fell in love with when I saw her!
I decided to take a chace on a preorder with no money down, when it came in, I declined the order as my financial situation had changed greatly. They offered me a "3-pay lay away" program and I took it for the 4 passenger cars I pre ordered. ALl three payment have been charged to my card, and 2 have been paid off. The third should have auto billed the 15th of this month. Now I cannot get a straight answer from them as to WHEN my order will be shipped, IF it has been shipped, all I get is "our computer crashed, I have to look it up manually and will call you back" I wil call again tomorrow and see, if they can;t tell it has shipped and when and tracking number, I will DEMAND they refund my credit card the money back!!! {Con-Cor}
I will never pre-order again. Thank you very much.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.