I've got a Bachmann Berkshire I picked up on sale for a killer price a year or so ago, but have been tempted by the MTH Berkshire as well. I tend to shy away from MTH as they use a proprietary controller (to "unlock" all of the features, you need their system), but I was wondering, from a detail and performance standpoint, if the MTH is worth it, since I could still use it with standard DCC.
I haven't found any direct comparisons of them, and MRR doesn't do side-by-sides, either (probably to avoid upsetting advertisers, a wise decision in today's lean print magazine market). Does anyone have both locos, or good up-close photos of both that can be used for comparison?
There are various reviews here if you do a search
The long of short of it is: It's not worth it in most cases.
The MTH Berk is based on the nickle plate version. So the C&O version of it is way off in details.
DCS doesnt respond to CV programming so well. So it might not play well with other non-MTH locos. I wouldn't count on consisting them with other brands like P2K or Bachmann.
It's also considerably more pricey.
All 3 makes (p2k, bachmann, MTH) of them are light on their feet.
If you want more detail, try getting a used p2k Berk off ebay. They come DCC ready or with QSI installed.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
dmolavi,
I would opt for the Proto 2000. They are indeed light on the pulling but are very nicely detailed.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
As was mentioned earlier that is more like comparing apples to cannonballs, in other words they don't compare. As suggested I would opt for the Proto version or just get another Bachmann engine.
Of course there is the outside chance that we might see one from BLI as well and that would be your answer, in the meantime I'd suggest another Bachmann version or the P2k.
Until MTH figures out that not everyone wants to operate with their DCS system you don't have much of a choice and remember that by "not" buying the MTH version you are sending them an "indirect" message that you don't want your engines DCS equipped.
Just my thoughts for whatever they're worth............
Mark
dmolavi I've got a Bachmann Berkshire I picked up on sale for a killer price a year or so ago, but have been tempted by the MTH Berkshire as well. I tend to shy away from MTH as they use a proprietary controller (to "unlock" all of the features, you need their system), but I was wondering, from a detail and performance standpoint, if the MTH is worth it, since I could still use it with standard DCC. I haven't found any direct comparisons of them, and MRR doesn't do side-by-sides, either (probably to avoid upsetting advertisers, a wise decision in today's lean print magazine market). Does anyone have both locos, or good up-close photos of both that can be used for comparison?
In addition to the fact that the MTH Berk is only correct for NKP, some of the cast on details, like the running boards, are somewhat overized. Also the tender seems a bit far from the loco.
The Bachmann model you have can very easily be upgraded witha few missing details, mainly hand rails on the tender corners and rear of the cab and a tender deck plate. Also if you are running DCC and want sound, the Bachmann tender has a speaker opening even though they don't offfer it with sound. So a sound upgrade is not too hard to do yourself.
All for a lot less money than MTH.
Now for the most important part. You can easily add about 5 oz to the Bachmann model. Myself and several others I know have done it and the increase in pulling power is tremendous. Mine will now pull about 40 4.3 oz cars on level track.
I have five of them which I am converting to freelanced heavy Mikados.
I do not use DCC or sound and have removed the decoders. Even with extra parts I have less than $100 invested in each one. So I have fleet for the price of one from MTH. Two of them will have Bachmann long Vandy tenders.
I also plan to get two more in C&O and leave them as Berks of course. True, not as detailed as the P2K, but still good looking and reasonably accurate - a what a bargin with a little weight added.
Why pay more? - unless of course you need station announcements and smoke? I can put a Conductors hat on and say "All aboard!", and smoking is bad for my health.
Sheldon
Thanks for the info, everyone...yeah, i'm leaning towards the P2k. If BLI comes out with one, then I'll have to pull the cash from my posterior :)
Many here will probably opt for the MTH of the two, {or make an alternate suggestion}, as many don't like Bachmann.
I own several Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos, though I don't have the Berk. My Bachmanns have served me well. They are better detailed than they used to be and have shed the more toy-like image they used to have. Some who buy the Bachmanns will change out the decoder. I do not care for sound and so don;t have any SOund OnBoard locos. I have found no problems with mine decoders yet, and have yet to fry one and I can fry a bread toaster just by plugging it in.
Since you already have the Bachmann Berk, are you looking to add to your fleet? I, too, shy away from MTH for the reason you mentioned and the price as well. They may be more detailed, but I don't like that pesky proprietary System requirement aspect either. Although you CAN run them on DCC, it seems to me that MTH could have played fair in the market. On that reason alone, I tend to not want to buy a MTH on the principle of fair market standards play. MTH's also seemed to have great track record as far as Quality Control issues, as there were few bad reports here, but on another forum it was coming to light that that is not necessarily so. {Perhaps some don't want to admit that they had problems with expensive locos they bought was a thought put out there}. Problems are creeping out with MTH QC issues and warantee-needed repairs, just as with any manufacturer. {of course they could all be built in the same factory like washing machines are.} SO on that front they may no longer have an edge, either.
Close photos for comparison will give you a features picture, but will it give you the benfit of knowing how well they run....both on regular standard DCC AND on their proprietary DCS system? I mean what is lacking on the DCC that the DCS will provide? How much better would it perform under DCS than allowable DCC? And how, then can you compare a DCC loco to a DCS loco? Those would be my questions. They aren't quite apples and apples. Well, maybe they are, but a Red Delicious is far from a McIntosh.
It may come down to this...do you want a MTH Berk? Does looking at one make you salivate with desire? Are you willing to risk the loss of features by not having DCS? Or Are you willing to scrap all others and go to MTH and their DCS system and run only MTH locos? Only you can decide.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Here's a few pics of my MTH Berk. Great loco.
The lower light is a Gyro. Long exposure makes it look like it's on steady.
Working Cab Light
Reliable power pick up
Springfield PA
Working Running Lights. The coal load is sweet as well.
The draw bar carries the digital signal. There are no plugs between the tender and loco.
Nice detail including a hefty cast boiler. Most others are plastic.
Pic of the number boards and other details
On Comming Pic
Also the sound is great and if you're in to it, smoke is included that chuffs in synch with the sound.
That MTH looks great. I have one MTH engine and have not had problem running it and other non MTH dcc locos at the same time. The only hidden "gems" that are available only on DCS and are important in my view is quillable whistle. And that's probably only because in DCC there is no standardized function for such feature. The real drawback of MTH DCC capability is very limited programming abilities. But to say that you need DCS to run MTH is not correct.
Actually function 2 is the DCC standard for the quillable whistle. I know that NCE and Digitrax supports it.
Also my paragon 2 loco's have it. I've used it and it works fine.
bottom light is the Mars? Thats wrong.
Top light is the Mars.
They also snug the headlights on the smokebox, N scale is like that out of necessity, why HO?
LL had different forms for each road so they made accurate versions. MTH keeps faking it.
No wires tender connection is fine but is that only 2 "wire" connections? I am fine with wired connections. If anything you can simulate steam and air connections and there are plenty of engine/tender connections.
I challenge other loco makers to make lit number boards and classification lights but you can buy them like Tomar. (not numberboards)
I am staying away from MTH unless they make a unique not commonly on the market engine, their triplex almost got me but its only the Erie.
They are about to release their Milwaukee Bi-Polar, it looks close, their may be some paint incorrectness but a paint brush fixes that.
Milwaukee road is not on my modeling list, but unique engines often are, I own the BLI Centipede.
You're right. I had to go back to one of my video's to check
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSCCBgR6McQ
dinwitty LL had different forms for each road so they made accurate versions. MTH keeps faking it. No wires tender connection is fine but is that only 2 "wire" connections? I am fine with wired connections. If anything you can simulate steam and air connections and there are plenty of engine/tender connections. I challenge other loco makers to make lit number boards and classification lights but you can buy them like Tomar. (not numberboards)
Even the $175.00 Bachmann models have correct road specific details, but the $449.00 MTH does not?
I have 45 steam locos with multi wire connections - no problems here. They include Bachmann, Proto, BLI/PCM. As noted they look just like all the steam, water, air and electrical connections of a real steam loco.
Lit number boards, I would be interested in that - but not for an extra $350 (I have 5 Bachmann 2-8-4's, average street cost less than $100). Working markers or running lights - no thanks, not always used on the front, only used on the rear when running light.
Still waiting for a DC loco from MTH that might fit my layout theme. How about a nice Pacific that is not a PRR K4? Or a B&O B18 Ten Wheeler, or a nice Atlantic? Offered undecorated and in quiet DC, any of these would be something that would part me from some money - and not just for one copy, likely 2 or 3 or more.
That's a nice-looking Berk, there, but wasn't it the top light that was the Mars (not Gyro - it predated the Gyros) light?
And if you can you might tone down that cab light. A road engineer would keep the main light off (just gauge lights on) for most of the time, to eliminate loss of night vision.
---
Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
Also why pay the big bucks for an incorrect paint job, as the smokeboxes on the Van Swearigin Berks were sheathed they were painted the same color as the boiler not in graphite and oil.
In addition the C&O foobie could at least have had a number for a Lima Built engine rather than the Alco built engine it represents with the wrong builders plate.
MTH will not take input from anybody regarding their modeling efforts, many of the errors would be correctable without their arrogance.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dmolavi...
I happen to own one of the NKP models from MTH and can attest to its quality, smooth operation and reliability.
To dispell the notion that you need to use the MTH DCS controller to get all the benefits the locomotive offers, that comment is an inaccurate statement.
The DCS controller only allows the owner to utilize MTH features like recording your own sounds to play back thru the sound system, and being able to adjust independent sound volumes. There are other features available but I do not wish to go into them as that is not the purpose of my comment.
If you have a 28 function thrrottle, you can access nearly all the functions available on the locomotive easily, with the MTH.
The heft of the Berk is enough to haul about 30-40 normally weighted cars on a level track plan and the MTH model comes with a interchangable set of drivers with traction tires that you can easily switch out with the supplied tool and instructions.
If you want to buy another Bachmann, which I understand to be a very nice model, it will be less expensive. But if you want a powerful and very smooth and quiet operating locomotive with a awsome sound replication(the sounds are recorded from the actual 765 NKP Berk)and fidelity, then the MTH is worth every extra penny you'll spend.
While the MTH is not exactly correct for some of the other roads like the C&O version, it is still a very accurate model in most cases and definately the smoothest operating model of all the ones available- I'm speaking only from my personal experience. The operational characteristics and superb sound make it worth the extra cost for the vast majority of people that have researched it.
All this will depend on what your priorites are.
If you have any questions about the MTH, i'd be glad to discuss them with you on P.M.
Good luck with your decision.
And have fun Model railroading!
HF1
That and the cast boiler adds to the weight and overall look. I think the MTH loco's and the BLI Paragon 2 Y6b's are well worth the extra cost.
One more lighting issue on the MTH Berk: Those marker lights on the tender are just that, not running lights. They would be lit only if the loco was running light (no cars) or being used as a pusher, behind the caboose.
But they do look purdy
Especially when pulling my concor mp54 coaches