Hi,
I'm just wondering what effect worn wheels would have on a locomotive. Would it just be pickup problems, or would there be tracking problems as well (assuming the wheels were in gauge)?
Thanks in advance,
tbdanny
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
In a word..........no.
Mark
In a word....YES!
It could affect the running qualities if it has worn through the plating, fortunately there is a fix to that problem:
Plating service
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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Graffen,
Thanks for the link - that's exactly what I'm looking for.
Cheers,
This whole thing about "wheel wear" was started by "brass collectors" to do 2 things, #1 to determine how much if any running time the engine has had on it, and #2 as a way to get the price down. Sort of like "nice car but it has a lot of miles on it".
As for conductivity the brass conducts just as well as the nickel plating does and if it isn't, then they are most probably "dirty" which will also affect brand new wheels as well. After all, what is "under" the plating..........?
A lot of this started as a result of the Korean brass as they don't have anywhere near as much plating on the drivers as the old Japanese items. Again, collectors have made a really big issue out of this in most cases to get the buyer to lower his price, They run just as well if the plating is completely worn off.
For what it's going to cost to get the driver "tires" replated you could just as easily buy new driver's from someone like Greenway and have a lot less work involved, after all the tires have to be removed "before" they can be replated, who's going to do that? Don't forget there is insulation on one side that will have to be replaced as well.
The only time that I can understand doing this is if you are restoring an extremely valuable engine such as some rare "crown" that would have a value in the thousands of dollars if it were in perfect condition. There aren't a lot of those running around.
I have run old Tenshodo Great Northern engines from the 1960's that haven't had any plating left on the drivers for years and they run beautifully, but of course the drivers require cleaning periodically just as any wheels do.
However nothing will run properly if it is covered with dirt or oil so my suggestion is to clean the wheels, save yourself some money, and keep running it until it goes all four up!!!
Mark,
Brass actually conducts better than n/s, but the brass oxide really ia a poor conductor(and it will build up a coat of oxide within days). The result is poor electrical pickup. With n/s, the oxide that forms is a lot more condictive than brass oxide.
The price quote of $5/wheelset is cheaper that new drivers from Greenway. I had some brass wheelsets plated by a friend who ran a plating shop. It was not cheap, and this company does sound reasonable.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Danny:
I have a rather large brass roster, most of it older models, and on many of them the plating on the drivers has worn considerably.
I do agree that if the wheels are cleaned frequently, the worn plating doesn't interfere with pickup, however I run DC and so I don't know if the problems with DCC would be different.
I have a garage layout, here in a rather dry, somewhat dusty climate in Northern California, so by necessity I probably do more track and wheel cleaning than the average model railroader--one of the downfalls of having a rather large layout in an uninsulated area.
To keep wheel cleaning at an absolute minimum, I've installed Tomar track-slider shoes on my locomotives with the most tread wear, and it's improved the running qualities by about 90%. The only thing is that the sliders ARE somewhat visible between the drivers, so some brass runners understandibly don't care to use them because of that. However they work for me just fine.
So that's another alternative if you are looking at pick-up problems with worn wheels.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Hi Jim,
Well, I live in mid-Missouri where it's very hot and "humid" in the summer and cold and dry in the winter. When I started in HO Athearn had "brass" wheels on their diesels, again, no problems as long as you kept everything "clean". We also "dehumidified" our basement which helped a lot but the main point is "nothing" is going to run efficiently if there is "dirt" on the track or the wheelsets. If these are kept clean there really is no problem. We used to clean our track and wheels about once every six months as a part of regular maintenance and as I stated before we never had any problems. The more you operated the less the problem.
For my money this "wheel wear" thing is just a big "load", again started by the collectors not only as a way to determine how much usage they have had but also to get the seller to take less for his equipment.
It's really only an issue on the Korean brass as they have such thin plating on the drivers that I have seen it actually "bubbled" up on a loco that has never been run!!!! Again this is why I prefer the Japanese brass as it is just a better quality all the way around. Everything is done heavier, including driver plating. To get a Japanese built engine to show plating wear requires a really lot of running.
By the way, while we're on the subject, the "correct" terminology" is "plating wear".............not "driver wear" as is always used. The last guy that ask me how much driver wear an engine had I responded by saying I couldn't determine that because my "micrometer" was broken. Lacking a sense of humor he proceded to "explain" to me what he meant..........
That $5 per driver almost sounds to good to be true. My questiobn would be "who" does the driver tire removel, if that's included it's a heck of a deal, if the customer does it......well, if you have never removed the tires from the drivers you should probably practice on some junk wheels first and if the driver centers are "zamac" get prepared for some broken driver centers. That's why I suggested Greenway, $20 per wheelset with brass centers is really hard to beat when you consider the value of the item you are working on.
What gets me from the start on this is why the brass builders didn't use straight nickel-silver tires from the beginning instead of messing with the plating at all, just thinking out loud there as there really is no good answer, not even to save money. What's another $10 when you're already spending $500?
Oh well.............Mark
The GOOD brass importers, which to my knowledge includes W&R and also a few specialty O-scale builders in America, have specified and built models with stainless steel driver tires and stainless steel valve gear.
That's also part of the reason they are not cheap.
I'm not aware of anyone else who does that.
John
Only if "good" means "let's see how expensive we can make these things and still get them out the door" then you are correct.
Of course there are no bragging rights with a PFM, they were built to "use".
I'm running models that have been in more or less continuous intermittent service for four decades or more. The plating has long since worn off the wheel treads of several, but none of them have given me any problems with either pickup or tracking.
IMHO, unless the tread is so worn that the wheel develops a false flange sufficiently deep to cause derailment problems at turnouts and crossings wheel wear is a non-issue. If any of mine ever do get that worn I'll do what the prototype does - turn the tires down to restore proper contour.
Of course, I buy locomotives to power trains, not to sell to 'collectors.'
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Ok, I should have worded my post differently.
Obviously, anything built with stainless steel valve gear and tires is built to run and last!
The fact that many W&R owners happen to not run them, but instead put them on a shelf, is not a reflection on the quality of the models themselves.
They are simply outstanding models, in some cases of prototypes not done correctly by any other importer. They were also done in very limited runs, of perhaps 50 or less of each version. Their articulated gearboxes have offered the added feature of delayed motion--so that the one set of drivers slips before the other set starts moving. Those Samhongsa articulated gearbox sets were available separately from W&R at a very affordable price (about $80 per articulated, retail) and are a great way to repower older brass models. My friend did several. Good luck finding them now.
If I had the money, I'd most certainly use W&R engines--but I don't.
Though I myself have no real concern with running models whose drivers have little or no plating, I have experienced power pickup problems (excessive arcing and excessive track dirt) with some diesels--mainly four Athearn Genesis F units I once owned--once the wheel plating starts to wear (which didn't take long at all). Although Athearn has offered some paint schemes and models I'd really like to have, I have been too hesitant to buy any more F's.
I never had a problem with brass models--apparently the shear weight has usually been enough to assure good electrical contact even if the wheels evidence worn plating.
My 2c.
From the sound of it I'd say the Athearn F units are not the problem, dirty track sounds more likely. Of course you could always go with some replacement wheelsets from NWSL.
As for W&R...............well, probably the less said the better.
One way to extend the life of your wheel plating is to NOT use the wire brush type wheel cleaners. Alcohol will do just fine using a cleaning track. It's also a good idea to clean the power pickups after extended use. A good spray of contact cleaner might make the job easier but I haven't tried it.
Springfield PA
I have had some of my locomotives for 25 years or more and never had running trouble as long as the wheels and track were clean. And I have never replaced a wheelset on any of them.
Same here Bob, as long as the track and wheels are "clean" everything works fine for me as well. I have the usual track cleaning cars but even if I do it by hand it really doesn't take that long.
Since I was in the computer industry for the last 20-25 years of my working life I aquired little "lint free" cleaning squares from our local IBM service rep, they were used for lots of things but mostly to clean the tape drives, long gone for many years now. If you possibly know of someone who works for IBM see if they can get you some of them as they are just the thing for cleaning track. About 4" square, white, and as I said lint free, combined with an 80% rubbing alcohol they do a great job.
Most of my PFM brass steamers are high milage and have worn wheels, All operate just fine with no power pickup problems. Before I take them to the local club layout to operate, I take a q-tip and some alcohol and wipe down all the tender pickup wheels to remove dust and grime from the last run. I will also sometimes do the drivers by hooking up my test leads from my power pack on my workbench and do the same to them as they slowly revolve. I agree, worn wheels, primarly on brass steam or other older steam engines only really factors in for collectors in purchasing models. Brass wheels on brass track actualy have the best traction over N/S wheels on N/S track ect. Even my old sintered iron wheel Athearn diesels do just fine without putting newer nickel silver wheels in them, and they pull better that way to. Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
I found something great for cleaning rails and wheels. The Mr. Clean Magic Eraser, it really gets the rails super clean without abrasives.
Alcohol usually does fine for me.
By the way Bdewoddy, how's the recovery going after the accident?
My upper body is recovering nicely. I still get dizzy when going from horizontal to vertical or visa versa. My left leg isn't hurting any more but it is still too swollen to get my prosthesis on. I'll be in the rehab facility for probably at least 2 more weeks. Thanks for asking.
Forty Niner From the sound of it I'd say the Athearn F units are not the problem, dirty track sounds more likely. Of course you could always go with some replacement wheelsets from NWSL. As for W&R...............well, probably the less said the better. Mark
The track I was using at the time was brand new Atlas track. The problem was with the F Units. I've never seen locomotives dirty the track like they did. If I cleaned the track and cleaned the F unit wheelsets, in an hour or so everything was dirty again, with poor pickup. I got rid of the F Units and have rarely had any track dirt issues since--whether with Atlas or Kato track (I now have all Kato).
The sound equipped steam engines are more finicky about the track cleanliness--but I'm finding the MTH steamers (running on DCS) are far more tolerant than the other guys' are of track dirt (when running plain DC).
I belive the Genesis Athearn F unit wheel issues have been discussed elsewhere, but it came down to some bad plating during production that caused excessive arcing and created the power pick up issue, new wheels from either Athearn or NWSL solves this problem. We have lots of power pick up problems with the Bachmann ez-track(nickel silver version) at the local shop, it has to be cleaned every friday when we fire up the shop layout. It doesnt look dirty, but everything we try to run on it stumbles. These are engines we bring from home and are cleaned prior to that day. We hope to retrack this layout with Atlas snap track soon.