Hi all,
Last weekend I attended the semi-annual TCA meet in York, PA. This is a VERY large show that is open only to TCA members. The TCA (Train Collectors Association) is predominately focused on collecting 3-rail O, Standard gauge, and S-scale. The general public is not admitted. Despite the limited scope and "members only" rule the show still draws around 15,000 people from all over the country each April and October. And like the hobby in general the TCA membership has been changing over the years to be more and more focused on operating and scale accuracy. All the major manufacturers with a presence in O-gauge, including Atlas, Bachmann, and MTH, had major displays of their complete lines. I was particularly interested to see MTH displaying completed samples of their SP Daylight passenger cars. I've had these on order for quite a while to go with my #4449 and it looks like the wait is almost over. The word was the cars would be in house at MTH within a few weeks and out to dealers shortly after. Maybe around the end of May we'll see them at the dealers.
The York show does not permit photography inside the display halls. Fortunately, Andy E. at the MTH booth was nice enough to let me take some items outside for a little photo shoot. You'll have to forgive the crude backdrop. The best spot I could find to set the car was a loading dock.
I got to see some pre-production sample cars back in October at the WGH show in Puyallup, WA. However, this was the first time I had seen cars with complete diaphragms. They look to be nicely done with very soft rubber. The paint on the diaphragms was impressively flexible.
One thing the photos don't show is the LED lighting. This car was complete with the lighting in operation. When I removed the car from the display track the LED remained visibly lit for over a minute. Even if you run these cars with conventional DC they stay nicely lit at low voltage or when changing direction. The train won't go dark when you stop to change the polarity switch.
Earlier in the week I got to tour MTH's headquarters, located about an hour from York in suburban Baltimore. The tour was arranged by one of the major 3-rail O magazines. Numerous HO pre-production samples were out in the open for anybody to see. Here are some shots of a shelf with more SP passenger cars, PA's, FA's, and F-3's.
MTH had a running sample of their HO F-3 starter set engine operating on display. Unfortunately, since the engine in use I didn't ge to take it outside. However, it looks like MTH has pretty much left the BLI tooling alone. For $200 msrp it looks like a pretty good value in a starter set engine that comes with track, transformer, two freight cars, a caboose, and an entry level command control station. I did get to photograph this sample of the new comand control station that will be comming in the starter sets.
The system is similar to the MRC black box or Quantum Controller in that it lets you access to sound features of a command equipped engine. However, is goes a step farther into the world of genuine CC by giving you access to any MTH engine's speed control. When using this remote control you get to run one MTH engine in scale mile per hour increments just like with full blown DCS or DCC.
Well, color me impressed! These are very nicely done cars. I didn't realize that Daylight had full width diaphragms, looks impressive - especially painted. I might just reconsider and get myself a Daylight GS4 - but in reality I will most likely wait for the "Arrow" set that I have been waiting for 2 years now.
Besides the multi color interior, installed grab irons I think the major news here is the capacitive lighting. First off, LED is great news. But most important is that MTH finally did what everyone was asked for which is basically power from the track for lighting with battery/capacitor to prevent flicker. That's is a major advancement for passenger model railroading in my opinion.
Next step: DCC mini decoder to turn light on/off and maker lights. Competition is great.
I bet Walthers is glad they include installed grab irons for UP pass set. Otherwise with their hard to install grab irons, conventional lighting bulbs and poor flicker-inducing electrical pickup - they would've been left in the dust.
trainsBuddy Well, color me impressed! These are very nicely done cars. I didn't realize that Daylight had full width diaphragms, looks impressive - especially painted. I might just reconsider and get myself a Daylight GS4 - but in reality I will most likely wait for the "Arrow" set that I have been waiting for 2 years now. Besides the multi color interior, installed grab irons I think the major news here is the capacitive lighting. First off, LED is great news. But most important is that MTH finally did what everyone was asked for which is basically power from the track for lighting with battery/capacitor to prevent flicker. That's is a major advancement for passenger model railroading in my opinion. Next step: DCC mini decoder to turn light on/off and maker lights. Competition is great. I bet Walthers is glad they include installed grab irons for UP pass set. Otherwise with their hard to install grab irons, conventional lighting bulbs and poor flicker-inducing electrical pickup - they would've been left in the dust.
The full width diaphragms were impressive but were removed in later years. These look very impressive and seem to be flexable to allow the cars to couple and still look great. Coach Yard offered these for their brass cars but I did not expect ot see them on cars that cost so much less. I am waiting for the BLI version of this train but this one is tempting.
BLI just announced their GS4 and it looks good with the correct smokebox nose and other detail like driver size of 80" drivers that MTH missed. The preliminary pictures for the GS4 are on the BLI web site now.
CZ
Man, I'm not sure if I'm going to come back to BLI engines.
They look really nice, especially the Hybrids - but running it another matter entirely. After trying two different BLI engines, I almost gave up on HO steam - nothing major, but little things like low running hick ups and operational issues that I had with "apparently" first run of Paragon 2 kind of turned me away from steam. I figured it's too time consuming to get steam engines with all the rods and gear running properly in HO - that's until I got another look at Spectrum and had a chance to buy Trix Mikado. Trix engine is what I envisioned a quality HO steamer should be. Absolutely the smoothest running engine I've seen. If you look at the gear work, you can see that the quality of metal and how smoothly it slides at low speed. Unfortunately Trix engines new commanded absurd prices, and now with bankruptcy we might loose Trix all together.
However, It seems people are really happy with MTH steamers, and I'm willing to give up a little more $$ and a bit of prototype correctness for smooth operation and reliability. Maybe it's worth buying 2 quality steamers a year as opposed to 3 that require tinkering, tuning and sending back to manufacturer for repair. And don't get me wrong BLI support is exceptional and really nice people, but it's doesn't solve the core issue with the Quality Control. And their Hybrids are not cheap either...
Actually, the Athearn Genesis Southern Pacific 77' Chair Cars also have capacitors in the track-powered lighting circuit, multi-color interiors, factory installed grab irons, and they roll extremely well. They are already out, with Daylight and Sunbeam versions yet to come. I'm sure they'll look very good mixed with the MTH passenger cars as appropriate...
John
They look very nice. A few questions:
Do the diaphragms touch and stay touching between the coupled cars? If not is there a coupler ajustment to allow this?
What voltage does the lighting system work at? Will a constant 12 volts light the lights?
Will they be offered undecorated?
Sheldon
Hi Sheldon,
ATLANTIC CENTRALThey look very nice. A few questions: Do the diaphragms touch and stay touching between the coupled cars? If not is there a coupler ajustment to allow this?
I only saw an articulated chair car set coupled and the diaphragms did touch over the common truck. I didn't see two cars coupled with knuckles, but I would image if the diaphragms don't touch you could adjust that with shorter shank couplers.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat voltage does the lighting system work at? Will a constant 12 volts light the lights?
Anything over 5 volts gives full illumination. The cars have a constant voltage circuit. These will be truly flicker free!
ATLANTIC CENTRALWill they be offered undecorated?
So far they've only cataloged complete train sets for the Daylight, N&W Powhattan Arrow, NYC ESE, and NYC 20th Century Limited. Since the cars are all prototype specific they haven't offered undecorated versions.
dave hikelI only saw an articulated chair car set coupled and the diaphragms did touch over the common truck. I didn't see two cars coupled with knuckles, but I would image if the diaphragms don't touch you could adjust that with shorter shank couplers.
Obviously I can't say for sure, that is why I asked the question, but judging from the coupler position in the photos, the diaphragms do not even come close to touching when coupled. And even shorter coupler shanks (based on available Kadee sizes) are not going to fix that, so the coupler boxes would require some sort of ajustment.
For me personally, diaphragms that don't touch is a non starter - especially at this price level.
I'm not picking on MTH here, I don't buy Walthers and/or BLI/PCM passenger cars for this same reason. I'm not about to pay $40, $50 or even $70 for a passenger car and then have to modify it to look/work correctly. I can build a Branchline kit and install retrofit American Limited diaphragms and get better looks for less. At least while building the kit it is much easier to make any needed modifications. Or, for my freelance purposes, super detail an Athearn car and at least the diaphragms touch all the time, even on 24" curves (not that I need them to, my curves are 36" and larger).
dave hikelSo far they've only cataloged complete train sets for the Daylight, N&W Powhattan Arrow, NYC ESE, and NYC 20th Century Limited. Since the cars are all prototype specific they haven't offered undecorated versions.
That too is a shame, I don't model any of those roads, I don't collect model or toy trains. I am a protolance modeler. Undecorated versions of some of these prototypes would possibly be of interest for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL, the Daylight cars in particular. But disassembly, stripping and repainting is simply out of the question, again a factor of the high price and often the difficulty of successful disassembly for repainting. What does the fact that there are prototype specific have to do with offering them undecorated? Most other manufacturers do it?
It seems to me that as the products in this hobby advance, the modeling options are actually declining.
It truly may be turning into a hobby of just collecting high priced toys - a fact that will alienate many including myself, or just simply fragment the hobby even more. In fact, after 40 years in this hobby, and many of years of being somewhat social in the hobby, I find myself having less and less in common with those newer (not necessarily new, just newer than me) to the hobby and find myself reverting to my previous "lone wolf" status.
I would think manufacturers would be interested in all types of customers to keep their volume as high as possible, Offering undecorated or unlettered versions, even of proto specific products, is part of that.
Looks like once again Mike Wolf has aimed his product anywhere but at me, I'll keep my money and spend it elsewhere.
Sheldon--
I think the reason there are less undecorated models available is mainly because, with some limited exceptions, they just really do not sell all that well in comparison to factory finished models. Since nobody wants inventory hanging around anymore, there are less undecorated models available.
I watch Ebay because I buy/sell/trade on there often. Plainly and simply put, undecorated models bring less of the manufacturer's suggested retail price, and they take longer to sell, on average.
As a dealer, I would not stock them, unless it happened to be the local road's prototype--then I might have a few for the guys who want to paint/letter their own. I've seen undecorateds die on the shelves.
Sure, I'd want to please as many customers as possible--but you can't lose your shirt doing so. Undecorated models are a much higher sales risk, because it's historically been difficult to ascertain if there will be adequate demand for them.
Though I myself and many others have applied different roadnames than were prototypically correct to models in the past, with the current emphasis within the hobby toward "historical accuracy" fewer and fewer people are doing that. This is born out when you visit places like the Strasburg Railroad. Long gone is the attractive yellow "Hello Dolly" era paint. Also, the Strasburg Railroad name has vanished from all engines. They now all wear the historically accurate paint schemes and lettering. The cars are now all painted in conservative, boring, but historically "accurate" PRR/N&W Tuscan Red (or a very similar paint shade)--and are also beginning to revert to historically accurate roadnames.
UP 4-12-2 Sheldon-- I think the reason there are less undecorated models available is mainly because, with some limited exceptions, they just really do not sell all that well in comparison to factory finished models. Since nobody wants inventory hanging around anymore, there are less undecorated models available. I watch Ebay because I buy/sell/trade on there often. Plainly and simply put, undecorated models bring less of the manufacturer's suggested retail price, and they take longer to sell, on average.
John, I understand and don't disagree, mainly because of what I said as well, the hobby does seem to be changing. As someone who at one time managed a train department in a hobby shop and worked in several others, I have a different set of experiances with undecorated models, but again, I do understand that the market has changed some.
BUT, I'm not sure it has changed that much. I don't follow Ebay close enough to agree or disagree with you about the sales of undecorated models on there, but I have bought more than a few on there myself.
AND, I can't tell you how big the production run was, or what precentage was undecorated, but in the orginal release of Reading T1's from BLI/PCM, unlettered, both DC and DCC/sound, was the first item to sell out. Same with most of the BLI releases of USRA heavy and light Mikado's.
Bachmann seems to do quite well with unlettered versions of many of their products. And, I will admit in some cases the painted but unlettered thing is a real advantage, as opposed to completely undecorated.
And dispite supposed current trends, I still know modelers buying locos and putting any road name they want on them, prototype or fictional.
And once again, Athearn, Bachmann, Intermountain, and to a lesser degree Atlas and BLI/PCM still offer there products in forms that suit my needs. MTH has yet to do so with any HO product he has offered so far, dispite my efforts to keep an open mind at least about rolling stock.
Athearn's new SP 77' chair car comes unlettered, that would seem to fly in the face of your or Dave's point of view. Here a brand new release of a very proto specific car, offered RTR and offered in semi kit form undecorated for freelancers like myself.
MTH has made their target market clear, and it obviously does not include me.
Well, in the last several months I have purchased 5 locos and about 30 pieces of rolling stock. The 5 locos all Bachmann (four 2-8-4's for my 2-8-2 conversions and the new 2-6-6-2), and the rolling stock has been mostly Athearn.
I am building 5 of these for my ATLANTIC CENTRAL - total investment $480, with two spare tenders for other projects and 5 decoders to sell on Ebay. Rather than one MTH anything.
This one is in the paint shop now, other four being modified as needed, extra weight added, details altered, etc.
Nobody makes a model of a DT&I 800 class, brass, plastic, decorated or undecorated, so I made my own version for my ACR lines.
I also was differentiating a bit between "undecorated" and "painted but unlettered".
I agree the sales potential of painted but unlettered models may be another thing entirely.
I've seriously considered buying a painted/unlettered BLI C&O 2-10-4 and lettering it as either NdeM or something else southwestern, or likewise the Y-6B (or even possibly removing the lettering from the Y-6B I do have and lettering it as I see fit) but then when I think about it, those engines are both iconic to their particular railroads. Everybody knows the T-1 and the Y-6B, and for me, slapping some other roadname on there just wouldn't be right. It would always seem wrong. Even though Santa Fe, UP, and others had ex-N&W Y-3's, there's a huge external visual difference between the Y-3 and the Y-6B. I just can't do it.
Instead, when I run it through my saguaro desert scenery, I chuckle to myself that I'm putting the "western" in Norfolk & Western, perhaps as they at one time might have dreamed, or as someday might exist after the final mergers.
I can't even take a USRA mikado and letter it for some road that did not have them. I have a pretty good memorized list of the roads that did actually have them, and I just can't letter one for one of the others. Sure, I wish Santa Fe had owned them (that would be an easy choice for me), but they did not--nothing they owned was even "close" in appearance, regardless of the incorrect information posted online.
Others will feel differently, that is their right, I'm not stopping them or saying they can't or shouldn't reletter or freelance a railroad. It's just not for me.
The Genesis SP coach is a terrific car--very well-made and well-illuminated.
Unfortunately, they are sitting unsold at my local train store, both decorated and undecorated versions, if I recall correctly.
The paint schemes coming next will be more colorful (and will better meet my interests), so the ones currently sitting may continue to sit, though I had bought 4, and later resold them to make room for the coming MTH cars, etc.
UP 4-12-2 The Genesis SP coach is a terrific car--very well-made and well-illuminated. Unfortunately, they are sitting unsold at my local train store, both decorated and undecorated versions, if I recall correctly. The paint schemes coming next will be more colorful (and will better meet my interests), so the ones currently sitting may continue to sit, though I had bought 4, and later resold them to make room for the coming MTH cars, etc. John
I was surprised at your comment on the Genesis cars being well-illuminated since I had purchased one just to check out the quality, but never tried it on a track. It is a nice car and I put it on the track today and it is illuminated and looks very nice. At least they are going to release it in Daylight colors in the future so it will be a great addition to the SJ Daylight train or the orginal 1937 train.
Thanks for mentioning the illumination.
The problem with any manufacturer making road specific cars is they are only correct for that road and many LHS do not sell that much SP items. Athearn had previously announced they would offer most of the cars for the early 1937 train that were used later on the SJ Daylight after the 1941 new cars were on the Coast Daylight. The Athearn announcement was prior to BLI and then MTH deciding on doing the 1941 train and probably taking most of the customers for the complete Daylight train, not just a few of the cars like Athearn planned. Now Athearn has the MT4 out and probably should consider making a few more cars from the 1937 train that were used on the San Joaquin Daylight which the MT4 class pulled from LA to Bakersfield for many years.
Those look quite lovely and boy if I could afford them (I've been unemployed or under employed for over a year now) I'd get some!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not picking on MTH here, I don't buy Walthers and/or BLI/PCM passenger cars for this same reason. I'm not about to pay $40, $50 or even $70 for a passenger car and then have to modify it to look/work correctly. I can build a Branchline kit and install retrofit American Limited diaphragms and get better looks for less. At least while building the kit it is much easier to make any needed modifications. Or, for my freelance purposes, super detail an Athearn car and at least the diaphragms touch all the time, even on 24" curves (not that I need them to, my curves are 36" and larger). [Looks like once again Mike Wolf has aimed his product anywhere but at me, I'll keep my money and spend it elsewhere. Sheldon
[Looks like once again Mike Wolf has aimed his product anywhere but at me, I'll keep my money and spend it elsewhere.
Well, being a Rio Grande fan I can't afford to turn my nose up at the only plastic CZ cars on the market, and lovely done ones at that. But noting your location and forum name, it doesn't surprise me you have no problem dissing BLI passenger cars be it SP Daylight or CZ - yep, they are both western.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Quote from Atlantic Central - I'm not picking on MTH here, I don't buy Walthers and/or BLI/PCM passenger cars for this same reason. I'm not about to pay $40, $50 or even $70 for a passenger car and then have to modify it to look/work correctly. I can build a Branchline kit and install retrofit American Limited diaphragms and get better looks for less. At least while building the kit it is much easier to make any needed modifications. Or, for my freelance purposes, super detail an Athearn car and at least the diaphragms touch all the time, even on 24" curves (not that I need them to, my curves are 36" and larger)." End Quote
Sheldon, for the past 1/2 year or so, undecorated Walthers streamlined cars (except for the Milwaukee Road units) have been showing up in the Walthers Flyer for prices ranging between $19 - $24. Not a bad deal.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
riogrande5761Well, being a Rio Grande fan I can't afford to turn my nose up at the only plastic CZ cars on the market, and lovely done ones at that. But noting your location and forum name, it doesn't surprise me you have no problem dissing BLI passenger cars be it SP Daylight or CZ - yep, they are both western.
Again, actually I would be very interested in the SP cars if they were available undecorated. I have always liked the articulated SP cars - as CEO of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL I can invest in whatever I like.
And true, I'm in the east and model the east, my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL as well as WM, B&O and C&O.
Here is what we will never see in plastic, any of the B&O heavyweights that were rebuilt by them into smooth sided modern looking cars. Truely one of a kind stuff, seldom even done in brass.
I turn my nose up at a lot of new stuff these days, not just MTH.
If you run the Athearn Genesis coaches, which actually are available undecorated, on 24" radius curves, the diaphragms will definitely be touching.
At 26.375" radius (Kato), the edges of the diaphragms bump and rub occasionally.
They are really nice flexible diaphragms.
Regarding Branchline: I just was not happy with the quality of the passenger cars I received, and they would not be easily lit and didn't roll all that great for me.
UP 4-12-2 If you run the Athearn Genesis coaches, which actually are available undecorated, on 24" radius curves, the diaphragms will definitely be touching. At 26.375" radius (Kato), the edges of the diaphragms bump and rub occasionally. They are really nice flexible diaphragms. Regarding Branchline: I just was not happy with the quality of the passenger cars I received, and they would not be easily lit and didn't roll all that great for me. John
John, I'm not sure I understand or maybe you missunderstand me.
I expect/require diaphragms to touch and stay touching all the time. Straight, curves, through cossovers, whatever.
All my passenger cars are equiped with American Limited diaphragms and are coupled only a few scale inches farther apart than the prototype. I have my own set of coupler and spacing standards to make this happen. The diaphragms touch and compress slightly on the straight, they stay touching (both faces in full contact) around all curves that the equipment will handle. Only in the most extreme limits do they even slide very far off centerline alignment. This is achieved by using long shank couplers set back farther on the car floor.
They will even go through a #4 Atlas Custom Line crossover on 2" track centers - but my smallest crossovers are #6's. My minimum radius anywhere a passenger car goes is about 30", ALL mainline trackage is 36" radius or larger, mostly larger. BUT, my diaphragm equiped cars will work fine down to about 24-26 inch radius.
I do not have any of the new Athearn SP cars yet, I may get one and check them out. Most of my passenger cars are actually kit bashed/super detailed Athearn and Concor 72' cars. But some are Branchline and Bachmann heavyweights.
Even on my large curves, I prefer the appearance of the selectively compressed 72' cars. And since I freelance, prototype accuracy is flexable, especially since lots of passenger cars were less than 80-85'.
That is why I like the SP prototypes, they too tended to be on the shorter side.
As for branchline, if you are refering to Ready to Run versions, I agree - assembly quality is poor. The kits are time consuming, even as high detail plastic kits go, but they do build up nice and the issues you mentioned are easily addressed during assembly.
Back to locos for a bit, I am considering the new Athearn SP MT4. Its prototype features fit the "family look" of my other locos for the most part and it comes in unlettered DC - just out and already advertised as low as $220 for the DC version. I'm waiting a little to see what others have to say about them.