Just glanced through MR and saw plans for a wood structure, so I gathered up some scale wood and my jewelers saw and and started look at the plans, I then realised the plans are for a KIT ! ! ( I guess the word 'laser' should have been a clue) well I perused the plans and thought, Hey ! there are four pages of instructions to assemble a KIT, where have I been? 4 pages of instructions to put together pre-cut pieces of wood, why not buy it assembled?. Am I to believe that all those buildings on most layouts were from kits? then surprise, I checked on the prices of wood "kits" YIKES ! ! WHOA ! ------ back to my lumber pile.
A very good example is Campbell Scale Models. I really like some of their "kits", but when i look at the price tag i almost drop the catalog. Everytime. The offer a "kit" of a small overhead crane, basically some superdetailed 12"x12". $45!!!
Cost of scale 12"x12" is only $2.35 for a package of 8 at 11"long.
Four pages? That's nothing. I've seen/bought/assembled kits with assembly instructions containing scores of pages and resembling books. Some kits are simply "plans, instructions, and sticks" and are akin to scratch building except that information and materials are supplied.
Many modelers enjoy the hobby for its model-building element, not being satisfied with "plopping" a prebuilt structure on the layout. We are fortunate there are so many structure kits available, particularly the laser and craftsman kits. There is also an increasing variety of premade structures for the "ploppers."
Mark
I have built plenty of wooden/laser kits in my time. When I first started I simply could not understand why a box of sticks could be worth the asking price. But now I measure the value of these kits in terms of the hours of enjoyment building them, the quality of the design and the quality of the other goodies that are frequently in the box in the form of detail castings. Most of the laser cut wooden kits come from small business and are typically small production run items, so they offer variation and uniqueness that is simply not there with a mass produced assembled plastic structure from China.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Don't knock the laser kits too much. They are helping me move from Chinese manufactured plastic kits over the transition to scratchbuilding (eventually). The frustration and learning curve on scratchbuilding is something a working stiff with kids doesn't necessarily have time for these days.
I've tried some scratchbuilds and craftsman kits and I'll be honest, they are so frustrating sometimes that I want to throw the materials in the trash. That is not a hobby; I can do that at work. Thankfully I found Branchline kits because they are certainly easy to build while providing me some insight in learning the process of building scale models from wood.
I measure the value of these kits in terms of the hours of enjoyment building them...
Then I got my monies worth with my Alexander Scale Model freight house and my Suncoast FM Coaling towers, Simon. I have over 100 hrs. in each one of them.
I agree with you about the laser kits. And the other plus is that you can more easily modify them - e.g. windows. All of my laser kits have various windows that are either fully open, partially open/closed, or completely closed. That one thing alone really adds realism with not much effort made.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
For me the biggest advantage of kits is that the kit builder draws the plans and assembles the parts. That is the part I do not always enjoy. It is nice to not be almost done and not be able to find a part. Like right now, I can't find a cream sepaprator anyplace to finish the barn.
Some kits are simply "plans, instructions, and sticks" and are akin to scratch building except that information and materials are supplied.
My Suncoast FM Coaling tower only came with one page of assembly instructions. And those instructions consisted only of a fold out drawing...with 1:1 dimensions...that I had to convert to HO scale. That's it! And that was my first introduction to a real craftsman kit.
markpierceFour pages? That's nothing. I've seen/bought/assembled kits with assembly instructions containing scores of pages and resembling books. Some kits are simply "plans, instructions, and sticks" and are akin to scratch building except that information and materials are supplied.
I got one from a train show recently that had a photocopy of the instructions stapled together---24 pages of them. And the pile of sticks-----gonna be a lumber yard/mill when done----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The good point with kit - you have all parts.
With my bridges for Silver Creek I run out of bridge ties - and waitet nearly two month.
For my Diamond Valley station I had to order the windows and doors.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
ARTHILLFor me the biggest advantage of kits is that the kit builder draws the plans and assembles the parts. That is the part I do not always enjoy. It is nice to not be almost done and not be able to find a part. Like right now, I can't find a cream sepaprator anyplace to finish the barn.
I agree, it's why I buy kits. I am also stocking up on parts for future scratch building projects, but until I retire my hobby time is limited and the savings in time is worth the extra cost of the kit.
Enjoy
Paul
tatans Just glanced through MR and saw plans for a wood structure, so I gathered up some scale wood and my jewelers saw and and started look at the plans, I then realised the plans are for a KIT ! ! Am I to believe that all those buildings on most layouts were from kits? then surprise, I checked on the prices of wood "kits" YIKES ! ! WHOA ! ------ back to my lumber pile.
Just glanced through MR and saw plans for a wood structure, so I gathered up some scale wood and my jewelers saw and and started look at the plans, I then realised the plans are for a KIT ! !
Am I to believe that all those buildings on most layouts were from kits? then surprise, I checked on the prices of wood "kits" YIKES ! ! WHOA ! ------ back to my lumber pile.
Addressing this facet of the OP's thoughts, while I am a great proponent of building craftsman and laser kits, in recent years many of the manufacturers seem to have let their pricing get a little out of hand. In some cases it would appear that the buyer is currently paying dispropionately for the intellectual property aspect, relative what the kit actually consists of.
Now I would be the first to agree that the clever kit designers should indeed be reimbursed to a reasonable degree for their creative abilities. However, when the kit prices start reaching into the hundreds of dollars for a structure that can be scratchbuilt by any halfway skilled hobbyist for $25-$30 worth of materials, then things have gotten just a bit out of hand in my book.
Years ago MR and other hobby magazines published an endless series of articles on building various structures for a nominal price. These articles were complete with lists of materials and step-by-step building instructions, weathering tips, etc. Many of the articles came from the hobby greats of the day. I've seen a lot of these same building later turned into kits by kit manufacturers, which initially sold for quite reasonable prices. But today these same, or similar kits, can go for the price of a high end HO diesel and that's far from helping the hobby, or the hobbyist. Likewise, a factor that hasn't helped this situation is that the number of kits per given structure are increasingly limited, creating a built-in "collector's" market. I've seen certain larger kits go for upwards of $1,000 on eBay!
Perhaps the answer to the problem would be the creation by some experienced and talented individual(s) of a softcover book of multiple layout structure designs of all sorts, which included materials lists and instructions, just like the old MR articles, priced at an affordable figure.
CNJ831
CNJ831Likewise, a factor that hasn't helped this situation is that the number of kits per given structure are increasingly limited, creating a built-in "collector's" market. I've seen certain larger kits go for upwards of $1,000 on eBay!
John the pendulum may be swinging back the other way. The recent announcement by FSM that the company is returning to smaller single structure kits is a sign of the times. From what I understand the last two or three years the kits have not been selling out very quickly at all. There are only a handful of companies that have managed to attain "collectors" status. The vast majority of the laser kit manufacturers do not reach that status. There seems to be an ever growing array of small business starting to produce laser kits. Some are now offering some very low cost starter kits to get people started.
I do agree with you though, that there are times when I question the value of the contents. But on the whole I think the majority of manufacturers are trying to provide good value for the dollar.
I love the DPM / Walthers / Heljan kits. You basically put them together and you're done.
The only thing I really wish I could find are some good victorian era house kits... like some italianette / new empire style buildings. I live near Pittsburgh and there are a decent amount of buildings here from 1890 - 1910. Not too many kits from that era, although there are more now than 15 years ago when I temporarily quit from the hobby.
simon1966 CNJ831Likewise, a factor that hasn't helped this situation is that the number of kits per given structure are increasingly limited, creating a built-in "collector's" market. I've seen certain larger kits go for upwards of $1,000 on eBay! John the pendulum may be swinging back the other way. The recent announcement by FSM that the company is returning to smaller single structure kits is a sign of the times. From what I understand the last two or three years the kits have not been selling out very quickly at all. There are only a handful of companies that have managed to attain "collectors" status. The vast majority of the laser kit manufacturers do not reach that status. There seems to be an ever growing array of small business starting to produce laser kits. Some are now offering some very low cost starter kits to get people started. I do agree with you though, that there are times when I question the value of the contents. But on the whole I think the majority of manufacturers are trying to provide good value for the dollar.
Hi, Simon! Getting ready for 2010 Interchange Program yet?
I myself think that the situation with George S. in down-sizing his future kits is probably a unique one...and we have no idea just where his pricing will go. However, nearly all the other laser kits manufacturers are aiming ever higher with each new kit. South River, Rail Scale Miniatures, plus a number of others have kits going for over $300 now, with several others manufacturers right behind. I note that B.T.S's recent huge lumber mill multi-kit comes in at over $1,000 ! Even most the second-level folks (or the smaller kits by the bigger names) seem to be shooting for $150 for the smaller, more modest structures.
I've been good friends with Pat at Valley Model Trains, a major dealer in craftsman kits, for many years and have gotten to see the evolution of this field in detail. Most of the kit manufacturers have progressed steadily from being suppliers of nice, very affordable, relatively modest kits, to offering high-dollar, complex examples well outside the range, or application, of most hobbyists. Like the high-end locomotives, they are quickly outdistancing the ability of regular hobbyists to purchase them, especially since a collector's market has arisen around many of these manufactuers and kits.
I've not built a structure kit in a long time. The primary reason is I feel the cost of the kit is unreasonably high. Add to this is the fact the finished "kit" rarely was completed per plans, as I chose to modify this and that during construction. I now use photographs and a sketch pad to start. My structures usually have an intended location already in mind before building. Keeping these parameters in mind helps the project almost build itself.
Structures a little more than BOXES with details added. I build the basic box to the approximate finished size, in the manner of modern prefab.
Once that's done, details are added. All manner of parts are available. Siding, windows, roofing, etc. Some parts can be used as a master to allow casting as many as needed. Others can simply be made by the builder.
Doing this results in true one-off structures, and after all, isn't that what it's about?
After building several high end craftsman kits, I have given up on them. It's not that I don't get a great end product. It's what I'm getting for the money. For wood structure kits, you get a pile of scale lumber and an instructions sheet. The lumber is not precut and must be cut to size by hand. After going through that, I asked myself, what am I paying for. Scale lumber is not that expensive. If I'm going to have to cut the pieces to size anyway, why not save several hundred dollars and scratch build. Now it's true that most kits have a number of non-wood parts that are very nice, but even those are not that expensive to buy seperately.
For most non-hobby related projects, a consumer can save a good deal of cost by investing some sweat equity. My experience doing home improvement projects tells me in most cases I can save about 2/3 of the cost through DIY. So why doesn't that apply to model building. If I am going to do the grunt work of cutting the pieces to size, shouldn't I realize a considerable savings over the price of kits with precut parts. It's as if the makers of these high end kits think you should pay a premium for the "privilage" of doing the hard work yourself.
CNJ831Perhaps the answer to the problem would be the creation by some experienced and talented individual(s) of a softcover book of multiple layout structure designs of all sorts, which included materials lists and instructions, just like the old MR articles, priced at an affordable figure.
I'd be willing to buy the dang book if'n one ever shows up that is---BTW---ever think of doing something like that with a few friends? I'd be your first costumer!!
Some of Walthers's simple kits are great for kitbashing:
And "box of sticks" kits with a bit of scratchbuilding are wonderful too:
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
I'm sitting here perusing a copy of "Easy to build Model Railroad Structures", Edted by Willard V. Anderson, copyright Kalmbach 1958. Very useful if you can find it, straighforward scratchbuilding.
And no, I'm not parting with it.
Dennis
I here you IVRW. I was eyeing a kit from Campbell for my Smokey Hollow. Looked really good. Had all the elements i needed, such as large loading doors and a trackside loading dock. Then i looked down. Gulp. Thats a lot of money.
I did a little research, and if i was to build my own structure in a similar design, i would save nearly half the cost of the kit. And so now, in a few minutes, i'll go into the basement and continue working on my scratchbuild.
I've collected a lot,about 20 Campbell kits over the years and have just recently started on the pile. I'm starting with the handcar sheds etc. and intend to work my way up to the engine houses and cannery. Most of the Campbell instructions start about the same but the build sequences differ. I got most of the kits from swap meets,some have opened packages and parts of the kits have been built but other parts to complete a second building are there. I knew this when I bought them at a great discount.I get a big kick out of building them,great to do during the football season.
My greatest score lately though was 8 1970s FSM kits,two Campbell kits,water tower and engine house, and a Scales Structures stone roundhouse for $500. I can die happy. BILL
markpierceSome of Walthers's simple kits are great for kitbashing:
The only problem with this is, I look at it and think, "now that's a creative use for the New River Mine." Don't get me wrong, you did a great job on it, but the fact that structure is basically everywhere overshadows what you can do with it.
That's the problem with all mass-produced structures. Nevertheless, my objective was not to hide its pedigree, but to create a different type of industry.