I'm planning on building a freight yard. How many tracks would I want minimum? I'm planning on having about six industries. They're all quite small and none of them can handle more than five or six cars per day.
My thoughts are that you need to provide some more information.
A good guide for classification yard design is http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html. Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation is another good source of information. If you read either of these resources, it becomes apparent that the number of destinations for your cars will impact the number of tracks (doesn't have to be 1:1 or anything close). Your train length is going to drive the length of the tracks, and indirectly impact the number of tracks.
5 or 6 cars per day is not a small industry to me - but that's me. Will they each receive 1 car per train? Or will it be a 30 car train once a day, switching blocks of 5-6 cars at a time?
just my thoughts
Fred w
tttThe purpose will mainly be to make up/break up locals. The normal train length is about five cars. The train wouldn't be scheduled to leave until it was completed. The industries wouldn't be with the yard. Each industry would receive two cuts of two or three cars per day.
If you look at the link I provided in the previous post (http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html), you can see that a passing siding (to serve as both runaround and arrival/departure track), a yard lead, and 2 yard tracks would be the minimum to have an effective yard. With 5 car trains, not much else is needed to make/break up trains - each train only has cars to/from 2 industries. If the yard is to serve other purposes (engine servicing, caboose holding and servicing, excess car storage, etc.) then additional track(s) may be required.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
What Fred states (arrival/departure/runaround, yard lead, 2 yard tracks) is an absolute minimum to have a yard that is effective. Add a couple more tracks if you can, including another thru-track (runaround) if your yard is double ended. Yards and staging have a way of getting full fast!
tttI'm planning on building a freight yard. How many tracks would I want minimum? I'm planning on having about six industries. They're all quite small and none of them can handle more than five or six cars per day.
Sounds like you are interested in an industrial spur off the main line and not a true classification yard. Industrial spurs tend to be built around the buildings and structures they are servicing. If the industries are close together they can share one- two a/d's with the spur off the main used for the switching lead. With only five or six cars a day a single switch for each industry with two sidings would be more then enough. If a particular industrial yard is close to the A/d then only one siding would be necessary.
model in O. the Western NY and Ontario Railroad
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
onebiglizardWhat Fred states (arrival/departure/runaround, yard lead, 2 yard tracks) is an absolute minimum to have a yard that is effective. Add a couple more tracks if you can, including another thru-track (runaround) if your yard is double ended. Yards and staging have a way of getting full fast!
With a yard that small, I wouldn't worry about A/D tracks, I would have one runaround and then just tracks. Prototype small yards don't have A/D tracks, just tracks.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
3xt, keep in mind also that your yard will take up tons of space. Length-wise on my layout it is ten feet from the end of the tail/drill track to the furthest points of the far turnout. This yard was designed to handle ten cat trains double headed with a caboose.
Plan, plan, plan, then plan some more. Think it through carefully before moving forward. Visualize your operations.
John
spidge3xt, keep in mind also that your yard will take up tons of space. Length-wise on my layout it is ten feet from the end of the tail/drill track to the furthest points of the far turnout. This yard was designed to handle ten cat trains double headed with a caboose.
Spidge and others pushing the OP for a bigger yard.
The OP stated his train length was 5 cars, with cuts of 2-3 cars for each industry. Assuming 40ft cars in HO scale - dimensions would have to be adjusted slightly for longer or shorter cars and locomotives - the passing track that serves as combination arrival/departure and runaround needs to be about 50" long between the turnout clearance points. This gives 36" for 6 cars, 5" for a caboose, and 9" for the locomotive. The tails on the runaround needs to be at least 9"+18" (3 cars) or 27" beyond the turnout points for efficiency. Less will require additional switching moves at times to handle.
Checking the resources I have previously listed, if the drill track - yard lead - can handle a full yard track cut of cars plus switcher, efficiency is maximized. Half a yard track for the lead plus switcher is functional but will likely require additional switching moves. Since the OP is using sequential operations, unless there is a train circulating on the main while yard switching is going on, using the main as the yard lead can be used to save space. With the size of cuts and trains, I would try to size the minimum 2 yard tracks at 6 cars each.
I built in a one car cushion for every 5 cars in the calculations, which is probably about right to allow space between cars without coupling, and a little slop for spotting.
Building a yard bigger than the minimum I cited increases storage capacity, but does not add to yard efficiency for train makeup/breakup for the conditions presented. The OP is obviously talking about a smaller layout (like the ones I've built) with 5 car trains as the norm. I find that on small layouts, ensuring every track has a real purpose(s), and removing any that don't, makes for the most satisfaction due to reduced crowding. And is more likely to provide room for scenery. And the yard is less likely to overwhelm the small layout.
Another thought on operating a small layout is the trade-off between efficiency and interest. Some enjoy deliberate difficulties in switching and some do not enjoy puzzles at all. When building a small layout, I personally lean towards mild puzzles and artificial difficulties for long term interest, but will not go down the full-fledged Timesaver (with its strict limitations on track capacities) route. The reason I limit the puzzle factor in my layouts is that if you build them into the trackwork, the limitations are there permanently (until you change the track). You must work around the limitations every time you operate the layout. That may or may not get old, depending on the person. I'm currently building a modified version of the Gum Stump and Snowshoe as part of my layout. Time will tell for sure whether the switchbacks and their limitations will get old or not.
In the meantime, I'm having fun building and learning.
What you are talking about is what is called a outlaying yard that is used strictly for the local industries.There will be no engine service area,engine house or turntable.
You will need to allow for "overflow" cars.
You still wouldn't need much of a yard 3-4 tracks top and the yard should be doubled ended.
As far as locomotive servicing..The engine can be refueled by contract fuel dealer.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE What you are talking about is what is called a outlaying yard that is used strictly for the local industries.There will be no engine service area,engine house or turntable. You will need to allow for "overflow" cars. You still wouldn't need much of a yard 3-4 tracks top and the yard should be doubled ended. As far as locomotive servicing..The engine can be refueled by contract fuel dealer.
Also known as an "industry support yard" or "satellite yard". What the 10 commandments points to is a classification yard, which is different.
An industry support yard on a branch or industrial lead with only one or two jobs working won't have a yard lead, A/D tracks, it will store cars in the yard, and the switcher will cherry pick cars out of the yard, breaking many of the rules which DO apply to classification yards.
I would have as many tracks as there was room for double ended, at least one, two is better and then then the rest can be stub. I would have the main, at least one open track (double ended), a track for inbound, a track for outbound and a storage track (the first to go if there isn't room).
Dave,As far as "cherry picking" cars that is also done in classification yards.This how they make up urban and road locals.
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" breaking many of the rules which DO apply to classification yards."
The only true "rule" there is in yard design is to design one that fits the allotted space.Anything beyond that may apply to Godzilla size layouts.
Mmm - a small industry support yard. Fred (and Dave) have given you good advice about a fairly small yard.
Here are four layout plans containing working yards of various sizes in H0 scale.
Here is a layout 6x10 H0 scale plan based on Linda Sand's 5x9 plan from the article ""Big City Railroads don't require big spaces" in Model Railroad Planning 1999:
As you can see - a four track yard with room for a runaround, engine service and a small enginehouse in 7 feet x 18". This might be bigger than what you need if you only run one train at a time, with maximum 5 cars in each train, and it might be bigger than what you have room for.
The yard in the Linda sand plan above also works as open staging & interchange - cars can be pre-staged here before you start a session and you could designate one track as an interchange track (where another RR has "just dropped off" some inbound cars or "will soon pick up" some outbound cars).
Here is another yard that probably is too big for your description - this one a H0 scale design based on David Popp's N scale layout as it was a while back:
The plan above is intended to accept five 7-8 car inbound trains and redistribute cars between five outbound 7-8 car trains over a period of some hours, so it needs to be able to hold quite a few cars between the cars arriving from one destination and being shipped out to another.
The part you see above is 10 feet from the leftmost switch to the right end of the yard (and the layout), yard lead continues off to the left - it is long enough that you can pull all the cars on the longest body track in the yard in one operation.
Here are some smaller yards:
"Federal Street Overpass" - a design of mine containing a small industry support yard (lower right) in a urban industry switching environment on an 8.5 x 2 foot switching layout. Here the yard is essentially just work space for the single train which is handling 10-14 in or outbound cars in an operating session (up to 7 inbound cars, up to 7 outbound cars), and there would only be one local freight/switcher engine moving at any one time - no need to keep the main free.
Here is my own small two track industry support yard (center along aisle in top part of layout) in the 6.5 x 11.5 foot layout I am building in my basement:
It is intended as temporary work space and will accept an 7-car plus caboose inbound transfer run train from the big yard (I have two hidden staging tracks inside a long industry building that functions as "the big yard over that way").
Then a switcher assigned to work the industry district sorts those cars by industry, and delivers the cars while picking up cars the industries are done with. The outbound cars are returned to the industry support yard, where a transfer run later in the day will arrive from the big yard (staging) to pick up the cut of outbound cars to take them to the big yard (back to staging).
The siding can be used as a siding. It can be used as a runaround (when the running track/main is free), or it can be used as a third yard track plus the yard switching lead.
As you can see - there are lots of ways to make a small support yard that can be used for some light sorting and temporary storage while you are working your industries.
Two or three tracks will make a workable small industry support yard, if you use the yard as a working yard, rather than as a place to store cars for display.
Smile, Stein
MUST READ yard referance.......
http://layoutvision.com/id19.html
Also the Kalmbach book on Freight Yrads and Andy's artcile on yards
ratled
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
I see the reason I rarely come here to this forum are still shinning brightly.
ttt I hope you were able to take something from us all and apply it to your plans. Show us a plan when you get it together, or a picture.
spidgeI see the reason I rarely come here to this forum are still shinning brightly.
You took offense from Fred Wright pointing out that the Original Poster seemingly was looking for a small industry support yard where he would be handling 5-6 car cuts of cars for industrial switching, and that a yard designed to handle doubleheaded 10 car trains, with a dedicated A/D track, a decent yard lead and engine service facilities might be somewhat overkill for the this application ?
Let's not get too thin skin here, people.
What kind of yard would fit the original poster depends a lot on how he plans to run his layout as a whole.
E.g. - if he plans to run several trains during an operating session:
Will more trains be coming from somewhere else (like a staging track, a staging cassette or some such thing) ?
Or will he fiddle the train by hand (ie lifting off cars and setting on new cars) when he is done processing one train of inbounds and outbounds ?
Or does he need to have room in his yard for a full day's supply of cars - say 15-30 cars, depending on how many of his six industries with 5-6 cars each he plans to switch out in a typical operating session, with it being postulated that these inbound cars were dropped off by another train before the switcher crew came on duty, while the outbound cars left in the yard at the end of the day will be picked up by next night's (not modeled) train passing through ?
Lots of ways to do things and have fun with a small yard. There is no one-size fits all and only one way to do it.
Even the advice of such excellent modelers as Craig Bisgeier ("Ten commandments of yard design") and Byron Henderson ("A little love for the yard") should be understood in the context they are writing about - how to make fairly busy classification yards more effective, so the yard won't be a choke point on a layout being operated by multiple road crews.
Craigs "Commandments", Byron's article and Andy Sperandeo's book "Freight Yards" has been mentioned.
Andy's book is also excellent, btw - he goes deeper into things like yard throats, and he shows some of the many other cool things one can have in or around a classification yard, in addition to the A/D track, yard lead and classification tracks.
Btw - my rendering of a yard design from Andy's book that illustrate a nice little yard off a branch line, serving two local industries and an interchange with another railroad:
One presumes a maybe 10-12 car train or so coming from the main line on the left, the road power cutting off from it's train and going into the servicing area while a switcher assigned to this area starts making pickups and setouts between the yard and the from the three industries in this area (modelled industry on the upper left, hidden industry along right hand wall, and track leading to a cassette for modeling interchange with another RR front track along right wall).
Whole yard area could fit on a fairly narrow shelf - yards doesn't have to be deep - width and length can be substituted for each other.
For thinking about yard design, I would also recommend John Armstrong's two booklets on prototype yard design and model railroad yard design from the 1950s. Still not outdated. Armstrong's discussion of how to model yards is one of the best discussions I have ever read on how to do selective compression when planning yards.
How to squeeze in a yard for a single operator in a small space is a different angle than considering how to make yards more effective in a multi-operator environment.
John Armstrong's booklets can be downloaded as (for pay) PDFs from web store of our hosts here at Kalmbach: http://www.kalmbachstore.com/mrpdf035.html - cost you about $10, but it is, in my opinion, money well spent if you want to learn more about different ways of doing selective compression of different types of yards.
Stein said:For thinking about yard design, I would also recommend John Armstrong's two booklets on prototype yard design and model railroad yard design from the 1950s. Still not outdated. Armstrong's discussion of how to model yards is one of the best discussions I have ever read on how to do selective compression when planning yards.
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Absolutely! I have little use for any layout planing book due to the author's layout ideas but,I agree with many of Armstrong's theories.
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Stein said:How to squeeze in a yard for a single operator in a small space is a different angle than considering how to make yards more effective in a multi-operator environment.
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Even the best yard design following Craigs "Commandments",Byron's article and Andy Sperandeo's book "Freight Yards" there will be compression even on Godzilla size layouts--unless the yard is the focal point of operation where all trains enter from or departs to staging.
Designing a workable yard for a small layout requires what I call advance thinking beyond the normal box of small yard design set forth by layout designers over the years..
steinjr ttt I'm planning on building a freight yard. How many tracks would I want minimum? I'm planning on having about six industries. They're all quite small and none of them can handle more than five or six cars per day. Mmm - a small industry support yard. Fred have given you good advice about a fairly small yard. Here are four layout plans containing working yards of various sizes in H0 scale. Here is a layout 6x10 H0 scale plan based on Linda Sand's 5x9 plan from the article ""Big City Railroads don't require big spaces" in Model Railroad Planning 1999:
ttt I'm planning on building a freight yard. How many tracks would I want minimum? I'm planning on having about six industries. They're all quite small and none of them can handle more than five or six cars per day.
Mmm - a small industry support yard. Fred have given you good advice about a fairly small yard.
First, I'd suggest going to the LHS and getting Kalmbach's book on Freight Yards, it has a lot of good information.
For the plan above, I have a yard on my current layout similar to the yard at the bottom of this trackplan. Eventually it will be essentially a scenicked staging yard for a larger layout, but right now I'm using it as a working yard for a switching layout. One change is I would move the engine servicing and engine house away from the back of the layout. If you take the track nearest the aisle and add a switch to make it a switchback, you could put in an enginehouse etc. along the edge of the benchwork, where there's just an open space now (above and to the right of the yard office in the plan). This would allow for a couple more yard tracks along the backdrop...or one could do like I did, and add flats along the backdrop, either as part of the backdrop or as industries receiving cars.
steinjr spidge I see the reason I rarely come here to this forum are still shinning brightly. You took offense from Fred Wright pointing out that the Original Poster seemingly was looking for a small industry support yard where he would be handling 5-6 car cuts of cars for industrial switching, and that a yard designed to handle doubleheaded 10 car trains, with a dedicated A/D track, a decent yard lead and engine service facilities might be somewhat overkill for the this application ? Let's not get too thin skin here, people. Smile, Stein
spidge I see the reason I rarely come here to this forum are still shinning brightly.
Thanks Stien, upon looking back I was to short fused. Thanks.
There are some great ideas expressed here. One has to admire the way so many have spent so much time to assess and write all this info.
spidge There are some great ideas expressed here. One has to admire the way so many have spent so much time to assess and write all this info.
Your photos were an excellent example of a decent size classification yard that would be fun to operate. If I ever get to build my detached garage with layout basement under, then I do hope to set up for 10-12 car trains and the facilities to handle them.
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
fwrightspidge Your photos were an excellent example of a decent size classification yard that would be fun to operate. If I ever get to build my detached garage with layout basement under, then I do hope to set up for 10-12 car trains and the facilities to handle them.
spidge
I suspect I would have to go to N (or Z) scale if I wanted a layout in this house big enough to warrant a nice yard like John's
It sure looks like it would be very fun to work that yard!
Grin, Stein, finally getting a start on basic landscaping again after months of painfully slow carpentry :-)