Jerry,
I agree that there is a need/time/place for different length axles. I'm just not convinced that Kadee trucks benifit from axles longer than those provided by Kadee. I have explained in great detail why I believe this to be so. I cannot explain why your expriances are so different.
Here is my question - why doesn't Reboxx sell both wheel widths??????????
Maybe they are one of those groups who think their way is the only way?
Or maybe they are right and they know their own market.?
Either way they don't get my money. I have read their data, tried their product, found it of no beifit and explained why its not needed or wanted in my case. I'm sure for others it works great.
Your work is very nice. As explained, I was once very "driven" for modeling "perfection" but found I was not having fun. Now I don't worry about perfectly copying the real world, and I am having fun.
Sheldon
One other simple fact has gotten lost in this discussion - Performance
Using Reboxx's own data, they say a stock Kadee ASF truck is a "13" and with the longer axles they recommend it goes up to a "17".
But my results with the Intermoutain wheel sets consistantly test better than a stock Athean Ready to Roll metal wheel truck which Reboxx says is a "25", near the top of any of their test results. And my results put the Kadee/Intermountain up with all their "27, 28, 29" performing trucks.
I am willing to concede for discussion sake that my Kadee/Intermountain combo only rolls as well as the new Athearn Ready to Roll truck, but even at that, my results with Kadee trucks with the shorter axles are far better than those of Reboxx with the longer axles.
Could it be that they are more concerned with justifing the use of semi scale wheels then improving performance? So because of side play issues, coupler gathering range issues and the like, are unwilling to admit that alxes of their design but the same length as Kadee's work and actually exceed their own recommendation in performance? To admit that would be an endorsment of the NMRA standards they are challenging with their .88" tread width wheels.
In my tests, the Kadee/Intermountain combo out performed or equaled EVERY rigid sideframe truck I tested, using stock wheelsets, Reboxx recommended wheelsets or Intermountain wheelsets. That includes truck/wheel combos that Reboxx tested as "28" or "29"?
My testing was done differently than Rebox. I don't test trucks off the car. For a sprung/equalized truck, off the car tests are not valid in my opinion. I used identical cars and built a 40' long test ramp/run. I tested all the trucks on both light cars (Athearn 34' hoppers with only the factory weight - 2.5 oz) and heavy cars (Athearn 50' flats with 2 vans - 4.3 oz). All metal axle to metal sideframe combos did include light oiling as described previously.
Proportional results where recorded with both weights of cars. Kadee/Intermountain equalled or exceeded all the other players. And the proof is in the pulling power improvement of my steam locos - 30% and more.
Jerry, you are obviously an experianced and talented modeler as your photos atest, and I understand your view on this. It is however impossible for me to ignor my own carefully conducted testing in favor of the view of a product manufacturer.
Your models show great artistic talent, while many have complimented me on my paint and decal work (I freelance so I paint and decal a lot of stuff), when it comes to weathering I have not reached your level of detail or skill. My strongest areas are technical. I am a draftsman by orginal training, a retired electrical designer/electrician, I currently am self employed as Residential Desginer, Historic Restoration Consultant, Historic Restoration Carpenter. I design new homes in Traditional styles and restore old houses.
It has been interesting to discuss this with you and I hope Keith finds the answers he needs, no mater what they are.
Sheldon,
I've already told you that the way you or any other modeler runs, builds, glues, staples or paints his stuff is okay with me, why do you continue to think that I'm attacking you?
Semi-scale anything, is only for those who appreciate it's intended purpose, not because it's "correct".
I (and I'm repeating myself again) merely pointed out that there are different axle widths available for a reason. It doesn't matter that they're attached to a narrow or wide tread wheel, again that's a personal issue for the user.
I included a shot of the CFSX hopper to show that I indeed do cars with wide wheels. If more of my customers requested them I would have no problem using them. Most of the customers that use me to weather their cars have no problems with narrow treads and only a small percentage request the wider type. That's my experience and has nothing to do with truck rolling qualities or pulling performance. If a car doesn't roll well after I work on it, I won't ship until it does.
Good luck Keith.
Aside from your customers, what do you use on your layout?
I do not think you are attacking me, but I find it interesting that you will not consider the idea that Reboxx might not have all the answers for every truck out there, and that maybe they are wrong in their view/recommendations for Kadee trucks.
I know several people who are users/fans of Reboxx and I agree for many/most, maybe even all plastic rigid trucks they are the hot lick if you want semi scale wheels - no arguement from me.
BUT, every time I present facts, numbers, data, you just ignor it and try to shift the focus of the conversation. I have asked a half dozen questions, if Reboxx has all the answers, why have they not responded or told us those answers?
That's fine, I have a thick skin and know that my modeling views fall outside of "politically correct".
And I don't reconize Reboxx as the worlds foremost authority on this topic just be cause they have a business and post some info on the web.
Sheldon asks.
I operate on a large club layout but most of my testing is done on a small module using Shinohara, Fast-Tracks and a crossover using two two #6 Atlas Custom line turnouts.
I think that I've been willing to consider everything you said and yes, maybe Reboxx is wrong, but until someone comes up with a better reference, it's beats an old wives tale.
I know several people who are users/fans of Reboxx and I agree for many/most, maybe even all plastic rigid trucks they are the hot lick if you want semi scale wheels - no arguement from me
Again, I wasn't arguing and again I'll repeat that I stated semi-scale is not for everyone.
What six questions have I missed? I stated that if what ever wheel/truck combination works for you is fine and good. What you fail to realize is that not everyone will have the same results as you claim given their different circumstances.
Why don't you call or email Reboxx and ask them why they haven't responded? Maybe they don't read this forum? I don't represent them, but I bet they stand behind their research.
Model Railroading is fun, that's always politically correct.
I'm sure they won't get a lick of sleep tonight knowing that.
Jerry
And remember. Never forward email, just cut and paste...
NeutrinoI think that I've been willing to consider everything you said and yes, maybe Reboxx is wrong, but until someone comes up with a better reference, it's beats an old wives tale.
OK, I thought this was the case all along - see ya,
I've contacted both Reboxx and Kadee. Reboxx's email was sent after business hours, so I don't expect a reply tonight. Sam from Kadee gave me a very nicely worded explanation why correct axle widths (and where points of metal axles ride in a conical journal should ride to be correct. He mentioned that he had read the discussion. He didn't give me permission to post his reply, so I won't. I did ask Reboxx to drop in and leave his opinion and we shall see how he responds.
Thick skin? Come on Sheldon...
NeutrinoThese "standard replacement axles are approximately 1.010 wide, Kadee's on the other hand are 1.018 to 1.021 on the 70 Barber RB truck, hence they are wider and fit better. All that slop in the trucks can make the car run missaligned through turnouts and definetly through 18" radius curves. Reboxx is the only replacement axle that will fit correctly. http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm Download the .pdf files for the correct axle lengths for any truck made. Don't forget that these are also .088 tread width or semi-scale, and may not work as well as standard plastic trucks with .110 tread widths on your trackwork.
This statement is misleading and incorrect since the 1.018 to 1.021 number is a measurement of the journal width, not an axle length.
The Reboxx recommended axle for this truck is 1.015, only .005" longer than the Intermountain.
All my measurements of Kadee wheelsets have been at or shorter than 1.015, most have been shorter with 1.012 appearing to be the target length at Kadee.
Yes, that's the chart - It calls for a Reboxx part #33-2-1.015, that is a 33" wheel, double insulated, with a 1.015" axle length - exactly what I said. Reboxx recommends a 1.015" axle length for Kadee ASF 50T & Barber 70T RB trucks.
Looking at the chart above, there are lots of large variations between measured axle length of Kadee side frames and the recommended Reboxx axle length. Maybe Reboxx needs even more sizes? And some .110 wheels.
Kadee's own wheel sets seem to have wide production tolerence but are generally smaller than that. Ranging from 1.008 to 1.015 with an 1.012 being the most common in the batch I measured.
If a Kadee wheel set that is 1.008" works why would an Intermountain not work?
ATLANTIC CENTRALThis statement is misleading and incorrect since the 1.018 to 1.021 number is a measurement of the journal width, not an axle length.
I'm trying to follow the discussion between you two guys. But how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion while the application chart pretty definitely says axle length?
maxman ATLANTIC CENTRALThis statement is misleading and incorrect since the 1.018 to 1.021 number is a measurement of the journal width, not an axle length. I'm trying to follow the discussion between you two guys. But how exactly did you arrive at this conclusion while the application chart pretty definitely says axle length?
The chart says "axle length range". All of the recommended axles are then smaller than that range. So it would appear that Reboxx measured the inside journal to journal length with a small pointed inside mic to provide them on info as to which size axle to recommend. Being sprung trucks, Kadee trucks have lots of play and variable tollerences since the side frames/bolster are three interconnected moving parts.
They do not provide specs on what size axle the truck manufacturer provided in the first place. Only their measurment of the truck and their recommended axle.
When I spoke to Sam at Kadee about this years ago, it did not tell me it would not/should not work. AND, he did not tell me how long his axles are. But I have posted my measurements of a dozen or more Kadee wheelsets. They are well within a range to suggest 1.010" axles will work fine in their sideframes - and they do.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe chart says "axle length range". All of the recommended axles are then smaller than that range. So it would appear that Reboxx measured the inside journal to journal length with a small pointed inside mic to provide them on info as to which size axle to recommend.
Sorry, but until the Reboxx folks so state I think you are assuming how they made their measurements as well as what the axle length range measurement actually is. In addition, while it may be correct that the recommended axle for the Kadee RB truck is less than the value shown for the axle length range, if you look at many of the other numbers on the chart you can see that in some cases the recommended length is in the middle of the range measurement and in other cases actually longer than the range measurement.
Oh, and how the heck did this thread go from "Kadee Trucks and Intermountain Wheels" to "Weathering Locos and Rolling Stock"?
Sam mentioned that it's difficult measuring any of his axles that have been mounted into trucks. He said the only true measurement would be on axles that had never been installed because of the nature of the axle material. You can easily shorten one by removing it incorrectly, giving you variable readings. He didn't tell me the mfg tolerances and it really doesn't matter because the top edge of the axle point rides on the top surface of the 60 degree cone. <=-+====+=>, it's there where the wear occurs and thus the drag.
Is anyone getting any satisfaction out of this besides Sheldon?
I hope people at least take into consideration that this discussion hasn't started a flame war...
maxmanSorry, but until the Reboxx folks so state I think you are assuming how they made their measurements as well as what the axle length range measurement actually is. In addition, while it may be correct that the recommended axle for the Kadee RB truck is less than the value shown for the axle length range, if you look at many of the other numbers on the chart you can see that in some cases the recommended length is in the middle of the range measurement and in other cases actually longer than the range measurement.
I understand, and actually don't disagree, but you will notice that in most if not all cases where Reboxx recommends an axle longer than their published "axle length range", it is for a truck with a plastic rigid sideframe. Their intent is to load the axle under side preassure so it must spin on the point of the axle cone not ride on the top of the axle cone. This is a good engineering approach for rigid plastic sideframes - it won't work on a sprung truck.
All of their recommendations for sprung/sprung metal trucks are smaller or within the published "axle length range", which seems to acknowledge the fact that sprung trucks are different and require sideplay to allow them to equalize - which is the whole point of sprung trucks in the first place.
Kadee does not publish the length of their factory axles, but they do sell them seperately and there is no information to suggest they make different lengths. Again, my measurements put the Kadee axles in the a range from 1.008" to 1.015" with most measuring 1.012". I replace mine with 1.010' Intermountain wheelsets and get great rolling performance and have no problems, Reboxx recommends 1.015" but only offers .088" wheel treads which I do not want.
My test results, measurements, and hundreds of freight cars are proof enough for me that it simply does not make a big difference - except for the improvement in free rolling. My results are better than those published by Reboxx with their recommended wheel set.
Sprung trucks and rigid trucks are two completely different animals. What reboxx recommends for a plastic rigid truck and what they recommend for a metal srung truck is like compairing apples to oranges. The Reboxx charts support the idea that sprung trunks need play, rigid plastic ones don't. Back to one of my orginal statements, the question is how much play is too much play? - opinions vary.
maxmanOh, and how the heck did this thread go from "Kadee Trucks and Intermountain Wheels" to "Weathering Locos and Rolling Stock"?
With Jerry (Neutrino)'s first post on pg. 1. All replies after that have referenced that post (or referenced a reference) have retained that title.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
dima I have over 200 cars equipped with KD trucks with Intermountain wheels. They run fine, I have no shorts or arching.Thesetup is very free-rolling and being truly sprung and equalized (like the prototypes) my cars are very forgiving to track imperfections and never derail.
I have over 200 cars equipped with KD trucks with Intermountain wheels. They run fine, I have no shorts or arching.Thesetup is very free-rolling and being truly sprung and equalized (like the prototypes) my cars are very forgiving to track imperfections and never derail.
Didn't you see this post back at the beginning of the thread? "dima" responded to a thread a few weeks ago when I talked about this and said he too has been doing the Kadee/Intermountain thing for years and thought he was the only one until he found me.
He has over 200 cars, I have about 400, but apparently they don't work.
NeutrinoHe didn't tell me the mfg tolerances and it really doesn't matter because the top edge of the axle point rides on the top surface of the 60 degree cone. <=-+====+=>, it's there where the wear occurs and thus the drag.
Seems to me I did bring this up in the begining, and in all fairness should have qualified the statement to sprung metal trucks.
The advantage of the Intermountain (or Reboxx) wheelset is the reduced axle diameter outside the wheel which makes the axle end cone less likely to bind in the journal cone as the trucks flex/equalize. Additionally, it is impossible to expect the two sideframes to stay paralel so again, the smaller, NMRA RP, axle tip reduces binding and friction.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Reboxx recommends 1.015" but only offers .88" wheel treads which I do not want..
I doubt any of us want .88" wheel treads... I think that would put us somewhere up about at G scale
anyway, quite the interesting discussion you two have been having... I only have 2 cars with the Kadee trucks (kadee wheels, too). they're the most free-rolling trucks I have (most everything else is junk tyco sideframes, with either P2K or Intermountain wheels... a grand total of 2 retail packs or some such).
I love the KD sideframes and I think I'll be picking up a lot more of them as time goes on....
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
tstagemaxmanOh, and how the heck did this thread go from "Kadee Trucks and Intermountain Wheels" to "Weathering Locos and Rolling Stock"?With Jerry (Neutrino)'s first post on pg. 1. All replies after that have referenced that post (or referenced a reference) have retained that title.Tom
That happened when I updated to FireFox 3.5. I have an auto-fill (Last Pass) option that was turned on inadvertently and the previous post that I had made was to "Weathering Locos and Rolling Stock". I didn't really notice until recently. I had to change settings. It still writes into the same general post heading "Kadee trucks and Intermountain wheelsets however.
Now if everyone posts a reply from this post it will get back on track. (no pun intended.)
Thanks for all the other opinions.
NeO6874 ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Reboxx recommends 1.015" but only offers .88" wheel treads which I do not want.. I doubt any of us want .88" wheel treads... I think that would put us somewhere up about at G scale
That's what happens when I try to type fast - opps is right.