With all the quality control issues on steam, diesel and other MR related items, would you spend an extra $100.00 to buy a Loco that was built in the U.S. or Canada or Germany or some other first world country knowing you would get rock solid performance for years to come? I think I would pay $400.00 or maybe even $500.00 instead of $ 300.00 just to avoid the frustration alone. How much more can it cost to get top quality? Just buying a built at home (or close to home) is worth a lot to me. What would it cost to get a $300.00 loco made in China, built in the U.S.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Brent,
First I have hardly ever paid $300, let alone $400 or more for any of my locos. My most expensive single piece is a Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 for which I paid $295. A few others have been in the two hundred + range. Most have only been in the $100 to $200 range and many have been less than $100.
My roster is mostly Bachmann Spectrum steam, Proto steam, some BLI/PCM steam, and 1st generation diesels from Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, and some Bachmann. I have well over 100 powered units. If the prices where higher, I would likely have less pieces and spent the same money.
None are DCC, none are sound (anymore). I run on DC and don't like onboard sound.
My point is this, the "retail" prices of these locos mean nothing, many of the locos I own have "retail" prices from $250-$500. What really matters is what you can buy them for. I bought most of mine new, yes, from discounters, on sale, on closeout, whatever.
Even if the manufacturers could make these items here and keep the retail prices within the additional 25% you suggest (I doubt they could), they would also more than likely have to get away from the deep wholesale discounts now inplace that allow a Bachmann loco with a $225.00 list price to be commonly sold for $130.00.
The current sale at Factory Direct trains is a perfect example. BlueLine Mikado's, two for the price of one, or $125 each. I have two already, dollar cost averaged, that's all I paid - $125 for a loco with a $250 retail price.
So the real price increase of domistic production would be 50-100% or more and sales would plumit.
As to quality, I have had no serious problems with the quailty of any of the locos mentioned above. And, when I have had problems the product was fixed or replaced with one that worked just fine. Why would I pay more?
Sheldon
Brent,One word..NO!!
Why? There is no guarantee higher prices would end any QC problems.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
While I am willing to pay extra for quality, I think I already get pretty good quality in S. Locomotive prices range from about $200 Diesel DC to $600 Steam DCC with Tsunami Sound MSRP. Brass is higher as are some high end kits.
I don't think where they are made is as important as the quality control of the importer/manufacturer.
Enjoy
Paul
The last two expensive locos I bought new were both from the far east. China and Japan respectively. Together they cost near $300. Neither one ran very well. One is a shelf queen and I traded the other one off (the other party already knew it had problems). The locos were a Kato RSC2 and an Athearn Genesis 4-6-2. This wasn't the first time I had bad luck with expensive trash. I've had several BLI's that didn't cut the mustard either. I gave them away long ago.
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IRONROOSTER I don't think where they are made is as important as the quality control of the importer/manufacturer. Enjoy
There is the point----when you outsource the first thing you lose control over is your QC. It becomes more difficult to maintain that QC, and for that reason----It is way better overall to do the jobs here in NA.---remember also--there is less regulation over there---hence---I'm also not so sure QC DOESN'T suffer from the lack of the regulation.
I'm not so sure Importers have the same kind of control as the mfger.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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There are debates going on all over the place about something called regional sustainable economies. These would have an impact on our RR cottage industries. If that will help in keeping QC up then fine. Jobs will stay here.
Many moons ago, some gallant entrepeneur had the idea that a high-quality, high-end model manufacturing operation could be established on an Indian reservation, thereby keeping the money and jobs in the US and providing income to a group where income was in chronically short supply. (At the time the tribes had not discovered the loophole in the law that allowed them to host casinos on their land.)
If anyone has ever marketed locomotives from such a source, I've never heard of it.
I won't say that the original poster's idea is impossible (which I define as, "I haven't done it yet.") I will say that I consider it highly improbable.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
A simular topic like this was brought up a couple of years ago and went into the politics of outsourcing and got axed by Bergie.
I won't get into the argument about street cost. Let's just say that the comparison is between a $200 loco with DCC and sound built "somewhere else" versus basically the same loco built in North America for $300...
For me, it would matter what the prototype was and how much the model advanced the state of the art over any potentially competing models. If it was competitive and something I wanted, yes, I think I'd be interested. The real question is whether or not quality would be better. It would have to be, but if the company building it was able to consistently offer such qualities in the models they release, I think it would be a financially viable project.
Why do I think so? Because of Kadee. There were -- and still are doubters -- about whether their HO RTR rolling stock fairly commands the relatively similar premium over similar products from others. Just note that the difference seemed substantial when Kadee first started producing them. Now it's not such a great difference, with so many others offering RTR. The others are molded here (in many cases) but assembled overseas. Kadee has raised it's MRSP just a little, while the others are fast catching up in price, but still produced overseas.
I was skeptical at first myself, but have since invested in a number of Kadee cars. One can only buy and practically use so many cars, so choosing to buy fewer, better, but somewhat more expensive cars (in most respects) simply slows the rate of growth of the rolling stock inventory. It's clear that model railroaders have chosen enough Kadees over other offerings to make it a financially viable product line. I suspect a similar approach would work with motive power.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
BATMAN With all the quality control issues on steam, diesel and other MR related items, would you spend an extra $100.00 to buy a Loco that was built in the U.S. or Canada or Germany or some other first world country knowing you would get rock solid performance for years to come? I think I would pay $400.00 or maybe even $500.00 instead of $ 300.00 just to avoid the frustration alone. How much more can it cost to get top quality? Just buying a built at home (or close to home) is worth a lot to me. What would it cost to get a $300.00 loco made in China, built in the U.S.
Why do you assume a US-built model would be better-quality than one made overseas?
And no, I wouldn't pay $100 more just to claim I "buy American."
A straight answer would be, No!
It's not a matter of foreign made = bad.
US made = good - that is far to simple an aproach.
It's true that factory workers in asian countries get paid much, much less than those in an equivelent US based work force. It's not nessesarily true that a return to local US manufacture would automaticaly show and improved level of quality and manufacture - should there be such a reduced level of quality and reliability as you suggest, Batman, in models made in Asia.
It is important to understand the numbers - I don't, I'm kind of just feeling my way around in the dark here, but I do know that a model locomotive made in, say China, a low wage economy, probably costs many times less to produce than the same model being made in the US - a high wage economy.
The Chinese built model will enable the US company for who the model is being made in China to maintain its margins - or increase them even - compared to a US built model that will see a smaller return or the price will need to increase to a point that will show the same financial return as the China built model. An addition of $100.00 dollars to the price tag may or may not do that - it may take more.
Having to pay a notional $100 additional dollars to buy the same locomotive manufactured in the US, as is currently being made in China or SE Asia would not nessesarily offer improved quality and reliability, but, by nessesity, would instead be a much simpler and a cheaper and cheerful casting. Something would have to give - I'm not too sure what that would be though. But there would need to be changes to what is being currently offered and it maybe that these changes may not be popular with end user hobbiests.
Bruce
I am willing to pay a premium for getting a premium product, in terms of quality, regardless where it is manufactured. I cannot expect a cheap product to be of superior quality. If the quality of products made in China is better than just acceptable, prices are also up. What I do not like at all, is paying a high price for a product I believe to be made anywhere else than China, only to find out that it is not made where I expected it to be. This is, IMO, fraud and most of the big name suppliers are guilty of it.
IF the quality of a USA made loco at a higher price would guarantee me a perfect running long lasting loco, I could, I suppose, be willing to pony up a higher price.
But no matter where built, there will be such issues.
If the USA produced all that that was all that, we would be in far less a pickle than we are, and people would be flocking to buy USA goods everywhere.
USA made does not equal quality.
Neither does Japan made, Chech made, or China made, moon made or anywhere made.
What DOES equal quality is quality control and a willingness/desire to produce goods that are 100% and durable.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Midnight Railroader Why do you assume a US-built model would be better-quality than one made overseas? And no, I wouldn't pay $100 more just to claim I "buy American."
Why assume a thing/idea called quality exists even?
It may not necessarily have to be quality but the idea that control of something called Quality Control may be more of an issue---it could be argued that placing the process outside of the country of origin actually increased the cost of manufacture.
Then again, one could argue that the demand for an illusion called quality has jacked up the prices so high that we need to go the opposite direction. Get rid of the delusional idea that there is a thing called quality---let the builders just build the dang things and we learn how to make the things work according to our own notions of quality---to wrap up: Do It Yourself
IRONROOSTERI don't think where they are made is as important as the quality control of the importer/manufacturer.
Exactly. The thing people don't realize about China is that they will make exactly what you want, for good or ill. The same factories that crank out cheap $400 Gateway laptops also make $3000 Macbook Pros. They just make the product to the specs the company wants. A well engineered model speced out with quality material and made by a reputable manufacturer will be of equal quality whether it's made in Shanghai or Syracuse.
For me, no. I would love to be able to buy Made In Canada items, maybe even Made in the USA but as noted, that does not mean it will be a better product. Look at some of the issues with Made in North America cars.
To me, its about the best value for what dollars I have to spend on my hobby. That may mean an expensive item but it may also mean trying to get consignment type bargains like the Red Caboose gon I just picked up for $20 CDN (sticker was $26.95, US).
Also, with the way labeling laws are right now, I am not even sure you could count on the label. The above noted gon is labeled as "Assembled in China" and "Made in the USA". So which is it?
And then there is the issue of deminishing return. Regardless of where something is made, making it better will cost more.
A BMW 5 series performs better than my new Ford Taurus and may (only may mind you) be more durable. BUT, is the increased price worth those improvements? If the Ford is $30,000 and the BMW $60,000 is the BMW twice as good, fast, durable, etc. I think not.
So if the Ford performs in a manner that is satisfactory to its owner, than it is a much better value.
The current crop of model locomotives perform more than adiquitely for me, and as long as companies like Bachmann replace the occasional dud and Walthers continues to send out parts for non working Proto stuff, and I can make minor ajustments and improvements to these models to suit my needs, they need not be any better or anymore expensive.
And for the record, on this topic, I have had to make just a many "field modifications" to the pricer BLI/PCM models I own as I have to my large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum - So which is a better value?
galaxyWhat DOES equal quality is quality control and a willingness/desire to produce goods that are 100% and durable.
If one could even revisualize the "pride in our work" ethic.
And here is one of those dang intangibles that we do not see around much. Quality was something that one took pride in --in and of itself. It can be thought of--but only in terms of nostalgia---
Pathfinder Also, with the way labeling laws are right now, I am not even sure you could count on the label. The above noted gon is labeled as "Assembled in China" and "Made in the USA". So which is it?
I find the US laws on that are a little hard to understand. I know for example Fender guitars in Los Angeles has another plant just south of the border in Sonora, Mexico. Some guitars are built in one plant or the other, but some are partly "made" in both plants. There's some formula I guess relating to where the parts were made and where they were assembled to determine if the qualify for the "Made in USA" labelling, like if the parts are mostly US made but it's assembled in Mexico it can be labelled "Made in USA"...or maybe if the parts are Mexican but it's assembled in the US?? It gets confusing.
In any case, I find cost doesn't mean quality. Yes I probably would pay more for a better guarantee of quality but it doesn't seem to be connected. I have a couple of fairly expensive Proto engines sitting in boxes because they either never ran well or over time quit running at all; meanwhile less expensive Atlas and Spectrum engines do yeoman service on the model railroad day after day.
I don't necessarily equated cost to quality. I look at the manufacturers reputation with past products, and if it applies, my past experiences with the product. If it is a good product with a good reputation, cost is not the deciding factor. I am comfortable (call me niave) purchasing a product from a reputable company and assuming they will stand behind the product. I work in manufacturing, I understand that it is now a world ecomomy, parts for our products come from all over the world, neither directly or through our vendors. When I see "Made in USA" or "Made in anywhere" I take that with a grain of salt, The sub assemblies and components could be made in 5 different countries, but assembled in Iowa. Does that make in "Made in the USA"?. IMHO its more of a feel good slogan than reality.
Bottom Line , if I need a 4-6-0 steamer, and Toy Loco company makes a nicely detailed, smooth running loco, with a good reputation, I will buy it at $100.00 or $500.00, doesn't matter.
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Brent;
I believe you get what you pay for, bottom line. If two like items are say, $100.00 and the other $500.00, it doesn't always mean that the higher priced item is better...the $400.00 difference might be just a brand name.
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What I am thinking about is the failure rate of finished product. It can be an expensive or inexpensive loco. If assembly is not done with care with proper end of line testing because that involves more labour cost I would pay more knowing I have bought a product that has a 1 in 5000 failure rate rather than a 1 in 20. These days some of our engines seem to have the latter.
A friend of mine moved his product manufacturing from Canada to Asia. It was the only way he could compete with his electronic widget. He is now on his third manufacturer over there. His shipped failure rate went from 1 in 5000 in Canada to 1 in 20 when he first got to Asia. He is now back up to about 1 in 1000 failure rate but it is a tough struggle. Problems he had were as soon as he would leave the plant, end line testing went from turning item on and testing 8 functions, to just turning the gadget on and off and shipping it out the door. This saved time and thus more money for the manufacturer. The other big problem was if an employee was making mistakes they were instantly shown the door and someone else was given there spot on the line often making the same mistakes. My friend convinced the plant owner to let him hold a company meeting to explain why things must be done certain ways and let him correct employees who were making mistakes instead of throwing them out the door. This made for instant improvement in the failure rate. His competition for one product sells for $89.00 and he meets that price with better quality. The cost of dealing with returned faulty product is huge and taking this into account it lowers the made in Canada price considerably. He would still have to sell for $115.00 if made in Canada. End result is most people will buy the $89.00 widget rather than his $115.00 one that is likely to be less of a headache all around.
I might.
But I would also like to see improved availability (no more limited runs).
I would like to there to be a parts inventory available to my LHS or my internet dealer.
I guess in short, a return to the Athearn blue box business model...
I know it is not going to happen, but you asked....
BATMAN A friend of mine moved his product manufacturing from Canada to Asia. It was the only way he could compete with his electronic widget. He is now on his third manufacturer over there. His shipped failure rate went from 1 in 5000 in Canada to 1 in 20 when he first got to Asia. He is now back up to about 1 in 1000 failure rate but it is a tough struggle. Problems he had were as soon as he would leave the plant, end line testing went from turning item on and testing 8 functions, to just turning the gadget on and off and shipping it out the door. This saved time and thus more money for the manufacturer. The other big problem was if an employee was making mistakes they were instantly shown the door and someone else was given there spot on the line often making the same mistakes. My friend convinced the plant owner to let him hold a company meeting to explain why things must be done certain ways and let him correct employees who were making mistakes instead of throwing them out the door. This made for instant improvement in the failure rate. His competition for one product sells for $89.00 and he meets that price with better quality. The cost of dealing with returned faulty product is huge and taking this into account it lowers the made in Canada price considerably. He would still have to sell for $115.00 if made in Canada. End result is most people will buy the $89.00 widget rather than his $115.00 one that is likely to be less of a headache all around.
Quality is an idea that no longer has the cache it once had-----it is the cash, man. They will buy garbage if it means that it costs less. Profits go up, cost goes down at expense of an idea no longer relevant.
The only way around this is by asking friend why go through all the added expense of re-educating a whole number of nameless workers in another country, travel there constantly b/c you have to keep up on the QC oversight, work with another company which has its own agenda, have supply management issues ---on and on. Instead of thinking profits we need to think OTHER than the same old same old. BTW--I know what the answer already will be to that too.
BATMAN With all the quality control issues on steam, diesel and other MR related items, would you spend an extra $100.00 to buy a Loco that was built in the U.S. or Canada or Germany or some other first world country knowing you would get rock solid performance for years to come? I think I would pay $400.00 or maybe even $500.00 instead of $ 300.00 just to avoid the frustration alone. How much more can it cost to get top quality? Just buying a built at home (or close to home) is worth a lot to me. What would it cost to get a $300.00 loco made in China, built in the U.S. Brent
The question you asked hits close to home for me, since I like quality model trains. The problem is real quality is not just a hundred dollars more, but more like one to two thousand more. I know that sounds like a lot and it is, but try purchasing one of the Division Point NP Z8's and you will get qualilty and more. It does not have sound, but it is one of the best models I have purchased up to now.
We keep hearing about all of the gear box problems with BLI and Bachmann and maybe a high quality gear box would add only twenty more dollars to a model locomotive, but they just don't put the quality into them like you want and probably never will. Many of the modelers in the past purchased brass models since they were the only ones available. About ten years ago, when BLI and Trix and a few others started to offer steam that ran good and then began to offer on board sound installed, we all purchased the die cast and plastic because they were less money and looked very good overall. Certainly they are not detailed like more expensive imported models, but they are nice and I have purchased many of those also. I don't count on them having qualilty built in, but some have surprised me and I think they are very good in value.
I now refer to the first run of Intermountain AC-12's that came out and immediately failed with drivers going out of quarter and out of gauge. How could this happened??? It happened because it was rushed to market and much rework is in store for most of those models. I read how to regear it since it has 1 to 48 gear ratio which is great for a switcher with a top speed of a scale 25mph. I purchased one since they were very inexpensive but did not expect it to run after I read the reviews on line. Some probably do run OK but a friend of mine purchased two of the AC12's and both are complete failures if you want to run them. A new gear box would help them, but they also need sprung drivers and many other features. They do look nice overall except for the steam dome.
The $100 you talk about is about right if it is applied to the China builder. They would probably do a much better job of building the model if they actually received any of the money that is being paid for the model over here. A model that costs $300 here probably is less than $80 at the builder in China. The $300 is discounted to the dealer by about 40% in most cases which is about $180 at the wholesale house. It has to be distributed which is an added percent off of the price and the importer has to make money on his project since the project has been in works for months in some cases, years including the upfront drawings and engineerring. In the end, the builder in China gets about $80 per copy on something that sells here for $300. Where do you add the $100 to get quality??
I agree with you that I would pay more for quality and have many times. There is no easy answer to your question but I have often thought that Quality Control is the best reply. It adds cost to the product but is well worth the price. Many of the models that are failing would never make it to us if they were checked both here and in China before they were sold.
CZ
I have yet to spend $100 on ANY of my locomotives, and that includes the price of upgrades and DCC decoders. No way would I spend $100 more!
Hornblower
Pathfinder For me, no. I would love to be able to buy Made In Canada items, maybe even Made in the USA but as noted, that does not mean it will be a better product. Look at some of the issues with Made in North America cars.
A lot of that comes down to design. People who prefer Hondas and Toyotas have no problems with the ones made in the US. It's the engineering philosophy of the company. An Atlas engine built in China will be better than a Model Power engine made in the US (I know, I know, they're made in China too).
As for the idea of the "pride in your work" ethic, that went out the window when people started looking down on blue collar jobs and decided the only way to be successful was to climb some meaningless corporate ladder.
Milepost 266.2People who prefer Hondas and Toyotas have no problems with the ones made in the US. It's the engineering philosophy of the company.
People who prefer Hondas and Toyotas have no problems with the ones made in the US. It's the engineering philosophy of the company.
This, combined with your quoting Pathfinder, reminded me of an odd nugget I picked up in a college class on globalization a few years back. Some of it may not be entirely accurate:
Nissan designs, develops, and tests the F-Alpha platform in Southern California. Its used to develop American styled pickups and SUVs for the US market, by American designers. That frame is selected to become the Nissan Titan, which is assembled in Canton Mississippi. Its parts are drawn from industrialized nations all over the world. However, 35% or more of the parts are manufactured in Japan. In theory, 34% of the parts could be American origin. This makes it a Japanese truck, because 1830 pounds of the truck were made in Japan and as much as 1779 pounds could be American. Does 51 pounds more, a whole 1%, really make a difference as to "country of origin?" If you go down to Lowe's to build a wooden box, and that plywood comes from anywhere other than the US its country of origin is not the United States if you apply the legal country of origin definition to it.
There are 2 reasons for the present practice of making model locomotives in China. The 1st is the cost of semi-skilled assembly labor; the second is the cost and availablity of the very skilled labor to cut the dies needed for plastic and die-cast production. The die cutting expertise is not as available in the U.S. as it once was, and is very expensive when you do find it. Hence, the lack of new U.S. plastic and die cast production, with Kadee/Micro Trains and Bowser being the glaring counter-examples. But none of the counter-examples manufacture all-new tooling locomotives in the US, either. Lionel had to finally give up and go to China/Korea for its new tooling production in the late 1990s because they were getting their lunches eaten by MTH.
Instead of plastic and die cast with its very steep up-front investment costs, the model railroading cottage manufacturers in the US (and Britain) have turned to other technologies. Etched metal, metal spin casting, laser cut wood, and resin casting have become the dominant technologies because they support low rate production with affordable up-front investment costs.
Making locomotives abroad has been a part of the hobby since its mass production beginnings in the 1950s. And so have quality control issues, regardless of where manufacturing takes place. Early imports were tried from Italy, as well as Japan. Attempts at model train production in areas with very low cost unskilled labor have generally been failures. Lionel's MPC era attempt to move production to Mexico, and Peter Grace's attempt to produce HOn3 in India both failed pretty miserably. There has to be a tradition of small metal craftsmanship, as well as relatively low wages, in the targeted region for off-shore production to succeed. Consistently assembling reasonable quality models cannot be done with unskilled labor - even if the parts were perfect to begin with. And parts aren't perfect because casting and manufacturing processes are not perfect either. FWIW, virtually all the major European model manufacturers that actually manufactured in Europe have gone bankrupt. Rivarossi, Hornby, Trix, Marklin, and now even Mehano have been sold or declared bankruptcy. In the cases where they were bought out, the new owners (Marklin in most cases) have declared bankruptcy.
And because model railroading is a hobby competing for surplus household dollars, model railroaders are for the most part incredibly price sensitive. How many threads do you have to read before you conclude most model railroaders will pay just $30 less for a locomotive and take their chances on quality, rather than pay even $100 more to build in extra quality? Sorry, you are unfortunately in the minority.
Most manufacturers end up without a real quality control program for several reasons. First of all, the yield rates of our manufacturing processes are not as good as anyone would like. When I as a manufacturer combine even a 5% defect rate of cast parts, the difficulty of raising investment capital (how much are you personally willing to invest in new model railroading manufacturing?), and the need to meet price points to sell at all, I see that I must sell every piece that I possibly can. And because some model railroaders are resourceful, only a percentage of the defects are going to be returned. If I can keep the defect rate reasonable (the skill level of the assembly labor helps a lot here), and keep my prices lower than my competitors, the numbers favor fixing/replacing the actual returned defects than fully checking out each piece before shipping. Bachmann/Spectrum is a very good example of this business model. Again, these principles hold regardless of country of manufacture. MDC/Roundhouse manufactured in the US, had a higher than desirable defect rate (in the case of their Shays, much higher), but because of the prices relative to competitors did not suffer for it.
just my thoughts
Fred W