I have been fascinated with model railroading and real life rail roads, I have never built a model but visit websites frequentlly and eventually when my house has room, I plan building one of my own.
My questions is two part.
1- In real life, I understand that multiple engines help give more power to hual all the freight cars, my questions is how do they determine to put an engine facing forward or back wards. I see frieght trains with 4 engines all facing forward, then I see some with every other one facing forward, all different confirgurations. This has intrigued me and I still dont know how and why. Do trian yards still use round houses to change the direction of engines, I mean as soon as one engine is facing a certain direction, it seems hard to change its direction without a round house or some other turn around feature.
2- Now for model rail roading, if I was usuing DCC and had 3 engins operating a freight train, is my controller only controlling the front engine, are the two other engines acting as cars and just for looks? I guess I am confused if they are all operating and one is facing back wards and the front and last car are operating forward, how do you control that with a DCC power unit?
If i need to explain this better let me know. I appreciate any responses.
Anthony
Anthony,
I can't answer the first part for you. But the second question I can. When you lash up multiple units (MU), it doesn't matter which direction the locos are facing, as long as they are traveling in the same direction. When you put them together, you are consisting them. The lead loco address is the one you control, but all the locos will respond to commands sent to the lead loco address. So all the locos in a consist are pulling together. That is also why it is important to have the locos speed matched so one loco isn't pulling or pushing the other loco(s).
It all depends on what the train has to do. If they are all forward usually that a line haul to a pacific place. Ones that are forward and backward are ones that can't be turned around at a yard end point or could be on switching duty along a mainline or just switching duties. This configuration is usually normal to have one pointing one way and the other the other way, that way they don't have to turn them around at the to go back the other waythey just change cabs to go back.
I'm new to DCC but from my understanding you can address all three under one address for more pulling power if necessary and run a consist of the three. Or in my case I only need 1 power unit for my trains and I use a dummy unit to get that look of 2 power units together. If you have 2 power units on a consist and address only 1 you will just drag the second if possible so you address them together to use them both.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
antney79I have been fascinated with model railroading and real life rail roads, I have never built a model but visit websites frequentlly and eventually when my house has room, I plan building one of my own. My questions is two part. 1- In real life, I understand that multiple engines help give more power to hual all the freight cars, my questions is how do they determine to put an engine facing forward or back wards. I see frieght trains with 4 engines all facing forward, then I see some with every other one facing forward, all different confirgurations. This has intrigued me and I still dont know how and why. Do trian yards still use round houses to change the direction of engines, I mean as soon as one engine is facing a certain direction, it seems hard to change its direction without a round house or some other turn around feature. 2- Now for model rail roading, if I was usuing DCC and had 3 engins operating a freight train, is my controller only controlling the front engine, are the two other engines acting as cars and just for looks? I guess I am confused if they are all operating and one is facing back wards and the front and last car are operating forward, how do you control that with a DCC power unit? If i need to explain this better let me know. I appreciate any responses. Anthony
Anthony with real trains as well as model trains when you see multiple engines coupled together it's call consisting. Also with the model trains as well as the real one's only the "head end" there is no front or back to a locomotive or piece of rolling stock, (some guys here may jump you for that common mistake but you can call it what ever you want.) The lead engine has control over all of the other engines via what are call MU or Multi Unit cables. These cables and hoses are all hooked to the proceeding locomotive so the engineer has control not only of the other engines throttles but the braking systems as well and in modern diesel locomotives the computer systems as well. No matter how many engines are in a consist there is only one engineer for the entire train. The exception to that rule is when there are pusher engines added to a train typically a very long heavy train going up and down a steep grade. Not only do they need the power of the added engines in some cases they also need the added braking power of the pusher locomotives.
Back in the days of steam they did run multiple engines in but each engine had it's own crew as they were not that technically advanced. Regarding the direction of the locomotive is when it's pulling a train strictly depends on which way it's facing at the time. You just don't pick theses things up and turn them around or drive it to a turntable or a wye so you can have them all facign the same way.
antney79 1- In real life, I understand that multiple engines help give more power to hual all the freight cars, my questions is how do they determine to put an engine facing forward or back wards. I see frieght trains with 4 engines all facing forward, then I see some with every other one facing forward, all different confirgurations. This has intrigued me and I still dont know how and why. Do trian yards still use round houses to change the direction of engines, I mean as soon as one engine is facing a certain direction, it seems hard to change its direction without a round house or some other turn around feature.
The lead unit ususlly faces forward for obvious reasons. The trailing unit might be facing backwards in order to be used as a leader for a train going the other way. The rest in the middle, in most cases, can face either direction, it doesn't matter which way they faced. Sometimes the second unit will be facing forward on premium trains so if the first one fails, they will have a "backup" leader.
Roundhouses don't turn engines. Wyes or turntables turn engines. A roundhouse is like a repair garage where minor repairs are made. Most roundhouses are gone, replaced by diesel shops, a retangular building that does the same thing. Yes they still have to turn engines.
When you create a "consist" (group of powered engine that will operate together) you will tell the DCC system which way they face. Then the system remembers that and makes the engines facing forwards go forwards, and the engines facing backwards go backwards. NCE systems, after you build a consist, even will let you choose which engine is the leader on the fly and all the other engines will operate accordingly. So if you consist 3042 F-3125 B-3406 B and dial in to engine 3042, it becomes the leader and the consist acts like 3042 F-3125 B-3406 B. If you dial in engine 3406 then the consist acts like 3406 F-3125 F-3042 B.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
thanks I appreciate all the responses, makes it much clearer now.
I grew up near the MoPac line through Omaha when F-units were king. I saw all kind of configurations of A and B units and there seemed to be no rhyme nor reason for the way they were facing other than the lead A unit with the cab in front naturally. You might see an ABAAB configuration with the trailinng A units facing backward or forward. From a performance standpoint, it really didn't matter. Only the lead unit needed to be facing a particular direction. With the Geeps, most roads ran with the short hood forward on the lead unit which gave the engineer better forward visibility but the NW was famous for running theirs with the long hood forward to give the crew more protection in the event of a grade crossing collision. Others have said this is a throwback to the steam era when most steam locomotives had the cab in the rear.
antney791- In real life, I understand that multiple engines help give more power to hual all the freight cars, my questions is how do they determine to put an engine facing forward or back wards. I see frieght trains with 4 engines all facing forward, then I see some with every other one facing forward, all different confirgurations. This has intrigued me and I still dont know how and why. Do trian yards still use round houses to change the direction of engines, I mean as soon as one engine is facing a certain direction, it seems hard to change its direction without a round house or some other turn around feature.
if I was usuing DCC and had 3 engins operating a freight train, is my controller only controlling the front engine, are the two other engines acting as cars and just for looks? I guess I am confused if they are all operating and one is facing back wards and the front and last car are operating forward, how do you control that with a DCC power unit?
4. Then there are combinations of all of the above. The PCM company makes AB sets of units that have a single controller for the first two motors. The third unit (for an ABA set) is then controlled and programmed separately.
Prototype railroads placed a small letter "F" on the front sides of diesel locomotives so people would know which end was front because a lot of the time it was ambiguous with only a casual examination of the exterior, especially for locomotives without cabs or with cabs in the exact middle. End-cab diesel switchers usually had the front the opposite end of the cab. Road locomotives like EMD's E and F and Alco's P and F series had the front at the cab end. Earliest road switchers like many Also RSs and EMD's SD7s and GP7s with the cab set back from the ends usually had the long end the front, but that was changed to the short end. Some even had dual controls so the engineer would could face front from the right side in either direction. The biggest visual clue is that if there are train number boards they are facing front. Sometimes the paint schemes, and light and horn configurations will also provide a clue.
My friend ran his new Southern Pacific Alco RSs from Overland at his club last weekend. Two were in the black widow paint scheme. Both the number boards and paint scheme showed the front was at the short hood end. The third RS was in the earlier tiger-stripe scheme which he also ran short hood frontwards. I advised him the tiger striped locomotive was running backwards because the number boards were facing rearward. The manufacturer programmed the DCC direction incorrectly.
Mark
Another point of confusion. I have read that different railroads decide which end of the engine they want to call the front. Some run long hood forward, others short hood. As far as speed and power, I have never heard that there is any difference with the direction. One reason diesels became so popular was that they could travel either direction and not have to be turned on a table or on a wye, a run-around track and they were all set.
Hope you get into your space faster than I have. You could do a little experimenting with a small layout or diorama to pratice some of the skills you will need for your layout.
Have fun,
The "F" designating the front of the engine was primarily for the mechanical department, who might get a work order to repair a traction motor in the front truck of a diesel. Without some sort of designation, this could get confusing. This also serves to identify areas of the rest of the engine as well. Just as a ship has a port and starboard side, a locomotive has an Engineer's or Fireman's side (even though there hasn't been a fireman on a locomotive in decades!).
As noted previously, the N&W ran its hood diesels long hood forward, so the F was located at that end of the engine, even after they started ordering low-short hood diesels in the early 1980's. Likewise, Western Maryland's RS-3's were designated long hood forward, while the PRR's were the opposite. When the original order of WM GP-7's was received, these were also long-hood forward, but were changed to short hood forward when they were "chop nosed" in the early 1960's.
There's lots of interesting trivia like this that will continue to confound you as you learn more about railroads and railroad practices.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
wm3798The "F" designating the front of the engine was primarily for the mechanical department
The "F" is for the operating department (train crews). When you want the engine to move forward, you need to have an end designated as such. On most engines it is obvious, but many roads had dual controls in the early days of GPs and other engines. Most hood units can be run either way, with visibility ranging from good to OK. Cab units have horrible rearward vision.
In the yard I run a pair of switchers that are coupled nose to nose (much better visibility). The GPs and SDs are coupled back to back. So I am going different directions. Coming into a joint is "ahead" for the switchers, "back" for the bigger power. The crew gets a little confused sometimes, so I often ask "Which way?". I'm pretty sure of what they want me to do, but I need to ask to make sure.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
WSOR 3801 wm3798The "F" designating the front of the engine was primarily for the mechanical department The crew gets a little confused sometimes, so I often ask "Which way?". I'm pretty sure of what they want me to do, but I need to ask to make sure.
Where I work, we just say "east" or "west".
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
cowmanAnother point of confusion. I have read that different railroads decide which end of the engine they want to call the front. Some run long hood forward, others short hood. As far as speed and power, I have never heard that there is any difference with the direction.
Another point of confusion. I have read that different railroads decide which end of the engine they want to call the front. Some run long hood forward, others short hood. As far as speed and power, I have never heard that there is any difference with the direction.
No, there is no difference. Remember that electric motors work the same way in both directions; there's no transmission between the traction motors (electric) and the wheels. The traction motors are powered by the diesel generator, which spins the same way regardless of direction.
On my DCC-equipped layout, I give each through train at least two locomotives (with the exception of the yard switcher and local), to make sure it doesn't stall, either by a heavy train, or dirty track. I always have one locomotive facing forward and the other in reverse, because I don't have any way to turn locomotives and I don't want to have to handle them if I need to have it take another train going the other direction.
I can answer your first question.
First of all, it doesn't matter which way a locomotive faces. They run just as efficiently in one direction as they do in the other. Generally most railroads will have a short hood facing in the direction of travel if possible. I doubt you'll see any mainline trains running long hood forward any more, unless there is some outstanding circumstance, such as the lead loco which was short hood forward died in service and had to be switched back in the consist to get a working loco head out, or perhaps had to be set out all together, and none of the rest of the locos were short hood forward. You will often see a local running long hood forward, especially if it only has one loco, or if both locos face the same direction. Reason being, they had no place to turn the loco(s), and just ran them as they were. Most of the time local crews will try to have two short hoods facing outward if possible, but sometimes other circumstances dictate. Where I work, a lot of engineers will take a long hood forward if it has airconditioning. Frankly, I'd rather have the window open and better visibility. But it's nice to have both if possible.
Railroads can and do turn locomotives all the time, but it requires one of two things...either a wye or a turntable. A turntable is pretty easy to understand, and most people who know much at all about railroading know what one is. Since you mentioned roundhouses, I'm guessing you are familiar with turntables. They are not nearly as common as they once were, but they are still around in places. And in fact, according to our Trainmasters at Inman Yard in Atlanta, NS plans to build a turntable in the near future along with a REAL loco servicing facility to replace the current loco shop which can only do the basics (fuel, sand, lube, inspections, minor repair). The new shop is supposed to be able to do a lot of the things we currently send locos to Chattanooga for. The old shop will then become a holding area for readied locos.
The second way to turn, as I mentioned is a WYE. A wye, is where you have a track that has switches that come off it and form a "Y" shape to a new route. An example is Howell Wye at Inman Yard. The Georgia Division mainline comes through Inman yard from the north and runs south to Macon and Florida. At Howell Wye, a track branches off the inman side and off the Macon side and the two meet after they cross over the CSX (L&N-Seaboard) tracks that parallel Inman. These tracks run eastward (or "Northward" as we call it) on the Piedmont division. Basically it's a big triangular-like track configuration.
You can run engines around the wye and they will be turned when you're done. just draw a triangle on a piece of paper and extend straight lines from the 3 points of the triangle. keep in mind the sides of the triangle will be concave curves rather than straight lines, then visualize a loco starting from one leg of the wye, and going around the entire thing to return to it's point of origin. it will be turned 180 degrees once the journey is complete. There are wyes all over the railroad. On my route, besides inman yard, we have 3 such wyes, one at Armour Yard, one on the "Stone Mountain Lead" and the last up in Seneca, SC. At any of these locations you can turn locomotives or CARS. You might ask why would you want to turn freight cars...because sometimes a box car has a placard that designates which side the car must be unloaded from (because of the way it was loaded, the opposing door may be blocked). Also sometimes covered hoppers have fittings that are accessible from a certain side on the bottom, and the customer will request that they face a certain direction on their tracks. There can be other reasons for turning cars, but you get the idea.
Hi Anthony......Larry here in St. Louis Missouri...........I have a Bachmann EZ DCC outfit.....new at DCC and wanted to do the consisting thing with 2 of my Athearn Diesels.......both powered. ANyway, Got mine running together one forward and the following engine facing backwards and the power is unreal.
One person from the Bachmann user groups website suggested to make sure both engines ran about the same speed to make sure one didn't run faster than the other.
A simple test is as follows......if I remember correctly. Place both engines on the same track running the same direction. And on the same address if DCC. Make a big oval or circle of track. Place the engines opposite of each other on the track........so they are equal distances apart of one another. Then start them..........the engines should be able to make at least 3 complete circles around the oval before one of them catches up with the other one. IF this is successful, the engines are pretty well geared to each other so that one is not running much faster than the other before using them in conjunction with one another.
Anyway, best to you
Larry
Also the railroads are required by federal regulation to put an "F" on their diesel or electric engines to designate which is the front. Canadian engines label all four corners like "RR" for right rear or "FL" for "front left"...or is it "LF" for "left front"??
Some railroads believed the crew was safer if they ran their GP's and SD's etc. long hood forward, others preferred the increased visibility of running short hood forward (especially when low-nose diesels came along starting in 1959). The controls would be set so they would be in front of the engineer when he was facing "forward", whichever way the RR designated "forward" to be...although some railroad engines had dual controls so were easy to run either direction.
BTW in the model when doing a DCC consist, all the engines (if you set the consist up right) will run the same direction and speed, but some function buttons may only affect the lead engine. For example if all the engines are sound equipped, usually the horn and bell will only sound on the lead engine when you hit F1 or F2. Also F0 will usually only turn the lights of the lead engine on and off.
BTW the "lead" engine doesn't necessarily need to be the first engine in the actual set up of how the engines are coupled together in the consist; it can be first, last or in the middle.
Real locomotives have a switch on the high voltage cabinet (front wall of which is the back wall of the cab that contains relays and contactors, circuit modules, and possibly a computer that acts as the brains of a locomotive) that is set to lead, trail, or cut out. The lead unit then controls everything via the MU cable.
Dennis, ex-EMD