Hi all! New to forum but returning to model railroading after a 40 year hiatus. Has Kalmbach [or anyone else] ever consolidated the locomotive and rolling stock drawings from the magazine into a book? And what about structures drawings? Did they publish them in a collection?
Kalmbach do publish the "Locomotive Cyclopaedia" with dimensioned drawings of locomotives in it. IVolume 1 (which I have) deals only with steam locos, but I believe Volume 2 deals with diesels and electrics (Can anyone confirm this?). There are also several Model Railroader publications dealing with structures, but you need to look at Kalmbach's Web site to decide what you want. Being a transition era modeller (late steam) my copy of "Model Railroading Structures" edited by Willard V Anderson (1958) is receiving a great deal of study. Rolling Stock drawings - It's a "dunno" on this one - anyone ?
Dennis
The answer to both questions is pretty much a "no". Some of Art Curren's kitbashing articles from 1990's MRs have been reprinted in Kalmbach's how-to books but the diagrams/plans from the classic scratchbuilding articles of the 50's through the 80's have not.
CNJ831
Thanks for the quick answers. Frankly, I can't believe they don't see the value of this old material. If they compiled it into a series like Locomotives- Steam; Locomotives- Diesel & Electric; Rolling Stock; Structures; etc., I'd buy the whole set.
What I really seek, and can't seem to find, are quality drawings of trolleys [streetcars]. Anybody know of a good source?
ginkgo88 Thanks for the quick answers. Frankly, I can't believe they don't see the value of this old material. If they compiled it into a series like Locomotives- Steam; Locomotives- Diesel & Electric; Rolling Stock; Structures; etc., I'd buy the whole set. What I really seek, and can't seem to find, are quality drawings of trolleys [streetcars]. Anybody know of a good source?
Just Goggle
St Louis car company Streetcar Drawings
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
I have been very interested in building some brass steam locos and did a lot of searching on the internet. There is one book in particular that I would love to have, but for now will pass on. The book "1921 locomotive cyclopedia of modern practice" contains all the information one could want for the big steam of that time, and the copyright is old enough that it is now public domain. Unfortunately corporate entities won't let you have it without giving up $30.The 1906-1909 book is also public domain and is available at google.books.com . It contains enough information to build a PRR Atlantic I think. There are several other books that would be of great interest to anyone wanting to superdetail their steam locos from that era, and I mean everything, including the measurements for the throttle bracket. If anyones interested I will list the titles I found most useful.
germanium Kalmbach do publish the "Locomotive Cyclopaedia" with dimensioned drawings of locomotives in it. IVolume 1 (which I have) deals only with steam locos, but I believe Volume 2 deals with diesels and electrics (Can anyone confirm this?). There are also several Model Railroader publications dealing with structures, but you need to look at Kalmbach's Web site to decide what you want. Being a transition era modeller (late steam) my copy of "Model Railroading Structures" edited by Willard V Anderson (1958) is receiving a great deal of study. Rolling Stock drawings - It's a "dunno" on this one - anyone ? Dennis
The Locomotive Cyclopedia had more than two volumes - I believe there were over 20. They also included drawings of freight cars as well. I don't know if they're in print anymore, but there are several book advertisers in MR and other mags - give them a try!!
tinman1 The 1906-1909 book is also public domain and is available at google.books.com . It contains enough information to build a PRR Atlantic I think. There are several other books that would be of great interest to anyone wanting to superdetail their steam locos from that era, and I mean everything, including the measurements for the throttle bracket. If anyones interested I will list the titles I found most useful.
The 1906-1909 book is also public domain and is available at google.books.com . It contains enough information to build a PRR Atlantic I think. There are several other books that would be of great interest to anyone wanting to superdetail their steam locos from that era, and I mean everything, including the measurements for the throttle bracket. If anyones interested I will list the titles I found most useful.
tm1:
The Cyc is great. There's another pair of books called "Freight Terminals and Trains" and "Passenger Terminals and Trains" that are the ultimate manuals of steam era railroad plant and operations, both on Google Books. They are fantastic.
There just isn't as much interest in scratchbuilding models as there was 40 years ago nor a need to do so. There are still a few folks who either like the challenge of building their own equipment or want something that isn't commercially available, but I think those are a small minority of modelers. RTR has taken over the hobby. MR doesn't print many scratchbuilding plans any more in their magazine. I doubt there would be sufficient interest in their old articles to make it worth it to them to reprint these.
jecorbett There just isn't as much interest in scratchbuilding models as there was 40 years ago nor a need to do so. There are still a few folks who either like the challenge of building their own equipment or want something that isn't commercially available, but I think those are a small minority of modelers. RTR has taken over the hobby. MR doesn't print many scratchbuilding plans any more in their magazine. I doubt there would be sufficient interest in their old articles to make it worth it to them to reprint these.
This is a decided misconception that one all too often sees espoused on entry level sites like this one. Try seeking out some of the websites populated by more serious hobbyists and you'll find that the majority of those participating are into the very same sort model construction practices that were prevelent decades ago. There are entire sites that are devoted specifically to those who build ultra-complex craftsmen kits and scratchbuilt structures. RTR may be the dominant situation among today's newbies and hobby dabblers but it is in no way representative of how advanced hobbyists such as those featured in the pages of the magazines, or on-line with outstanding layouts, do the hobby.
You would like this one, trust me:
http://cgi.ebay.com/THE-MODEL-RAILROADER-CYCLOPEDIA-1941-KALMBACH_W0QQitemZ200295848702QQihZ010QQcategoryZ165991QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
he sixth edition, which shows up from time to time is even better.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Autobus Prime tinman1 The 1906-1909 book is also public domain and is available at google.books.com . It contains enough information to build a PRR Atlantic I think. There are several other books that would be of great interest to anyone wanting to superdetail their steam locos from that era, and I mean everything, including the measurements for the throttle bracket. If anyones interested I will list the titles I found most useful. tm1: The Cyc is great. There's another pair of books called "Freight Terminals and Trains" and "Passenger Terminals and Trains" that are the ultimate manuals of steam era railroad plant and operations, both on Google Books. They are fantastic.
As for the scratchbuilding locos. There are lots of people , even on this site, that not only consider but jump right in on scratch building buildings (say that 3 x fast) and hand laying track with a million n two scale spikes and are proud and strive to be able to do this well. So why would locomotives and rolling stock be any different? I think some people are perfectly capable of doing it but are afraid due to the percieved complexity. That and buying all the parts and just fitting them together gets you an expensive locomotive. I have dabbled with boilers and cabs. It's not that difficult. I have (no laughing, it can work) put a hunk of brass on a chunk of steel and put it in the woodburner to see if I could get it hot enough for casting, mostly for wheels. The steel was too think and acted as a heatsink I believe (4x4x1) and not placed efficiently .I had it sitting on the coals and should have it elevated a bit. It did get to a good 900-1000F, as I touched some silver solder and it evaporated into a puff of smoke.
Definitely some droolworthy books there. Try "Broke Down" - instructions for engineers on getting their 1800s teakettle engines to limp home. Want to learn how to bring a 4-3-0 home?
Even apart from the scratchbuilding, of course, drawings are good. How about kitbashing or just plain dreaming? Anybody into steam, for instance, is going to do some kitbashing some day - you just can't get everything for every RR. Drawings are fun to look at, and we usually get a good writeup now.
Brass has to get pretty hot to melt. You might try aluminum, though. :)
I did try aluminum and that wasn't a problem. From what I have read Al can be a bear with contaminants and how it needs to be done. I was (am) looking at building a backyard furnace when I get some time. They are fairly easy to construct if you stay away from steel as it takes alot to melt it (3500F). It's not impossible, just hard on these little things. These things can use many fuels from coal to propane to used oil. I end up with 4gallons of oil every 4000 miles, which sometimes seems like every other weekend. One day.......
Kalmbach did have a book collecting some of their construction articles from the 1950s. I have a copy stored in a box in my attic. Had articles on building a DC flat using molded plexiglass, a chlorine tank car that included a how-too on making the channel from code 100 brass rail and a file, and a Jones and Laughlin 10,000 gallon tank car, among others.
CNJ831 jecorbett There just isn't as much interest in scratchbuilding models as there was 40 years ago nor a need to do so. There are still a few folks who either like the challenge of building their own equipment or want something that isn't commercially available, but I think those are a small minority of modelers. RTR has taken over the hobby. MR doesn't print many scratchbuilding plans any more in their magazine. I doubt there would be sufficient interest in their old articles to make it worth it to them to reprint these. This is a decided misconception that one all too often sees espoused on entry level sites like this one. Try seeking out some of the websites populated by more serious hobbyists and you'll find that the majority of those participating are into the very same sort model construction practices that were prevelent decades ago. There are entire sites that are devoted specifically to those who build ultra-complex craftsmen kits and scratchbuilt structures. RTR may be the dominant situation among today's newbies and hobby dabblers but it is in no way representative of how advanced hobbyists such as those featured in the pages of the magazines, or on-line with outstanding layouts, do the hobby. CNJ831
CNJ, let me first say that I think your pics/models/scenery is among the best we see on the forum. That said, I can't agree with your statement as highlited above. I have been at this hobby since the '50's, and have scratchbuilt structures and freight cars. I even put together a Walthers wood passenger car!! - and that was more like scratchbuilding than kit making!! In the '50's, 60's, and even 70's, there were limited numbers of prototype cars available - probably no more than 100 or so prototype box cars, let alone tank cars, reefersl etc.!! Today, many manufacturers list hundreds of different prototype cars!! Aside from not having to scratchbuild for a particular type car, these 66 y o eyes and hands cannot do what they did in the 80's, let alone before that!! I do wish that we had more kits available today rather than everything being RTR, but todays hobbyists want instant gratification, and having to build too many things will just drive them back to their video/computer games!! Our hobby has not "shrunk" as far as numbers go, but as percentage of the population, I think we are "shrinking"!! The manufacturers are having a hard time of it - modelers wanting more & more items, foreign manufacturing, and the constant technology changes such as DCC, LED's, etc.. I think the best we can reasonably hope for in the not too distant future is more kits from Athearn of their RTR stuff, and maybe Atlas releasing some of their freight cars as kits.
I would not call this site an "entry level" site - yes we have a lot of beginners, but we also have the seasoned pro's like Dave Volmer, Grampys Trains, Selector, Tom White and so many others I can't even begin to list all the names - and yourself!!
Many of our members ARE "advanced hobbyists"!!!
over!!
lvanhen CNJ831 jecorbett There just isn't as much interest in scratchbuilding models as there was 40 years ago nor a need to do so. There are still a few folks who either like the challenge of building their own equipment or want something that isn't commercially available, but I think those are a small minority of modelers. RTR has taken over the hobby. MR doesn't print many scratchbuilding plans any more in their magazine. I doubt there would be sufficient interest in their old articles to make it worth it to them to reprint these. This is a decided misconception that one all too often sees espoused on entry level sites like this one. Try seeking out some of the websites populated by more serious hobbyists and you'll find that the majority of those participating are into the very same sort model construction practices that were prevelent decades ago. There are entire sites that are devoted specifically to those who build ultra-complex craftsmen kits and scratchbuilt structures. RTR may be the dominant situation among today's newbies and hobby dabblers but it is in no way representative of how advanced hobbyists such as those featured in the pages of the magazines, or on-line with outstanding layouts, do the hobby. CNJ831 I would not call this site an "entry level" site - yes we have a lot of beginners, but we also have the seasoned pro's like Dave Volmer, Grampys Trains, Selector, Tom White and so many others I can't even begin to list all the names - and yourself!! Many of our members ARE "advanced hobbyists"!!! over!!
Lou, I'm being very honest about the situation when I say this site is largely entry-level but I intended it in absolutely no demeaning manner. I'm unsure just how to phrase the following without insulting some in pointing out that if you look at the sorts of questions posed, the topics repeatedly covered and the general level of modeling displayed here, it's obvious that while the site may have some good modelers, their numbers are really quite small relative to the overwhelming majority of folks who are clearly either just starting out the hobby, or modeling mainly at a very limited and modest level. Now there's nothing basically wrong with that and entry-level forums are very necessary but understand there are many forums and sites on the web where highly skilled modelers comprised a distinct majority.
If you want to appreciate what I mean, Lou, have a look at the calibur of skilled modeling presented on sites such as (am I allowed to list these?) Railroad Line Forums, finescaleminiatures, or Model Railroad Forums and there are many others like them. A large percentage of the folks participating on those forums are working at the skill level you see displayed in the magazines. Their scratchbuildting, kitbashing, or kitbuilding efforts, for example, typically look like models lifted right off George Sellios' layout. Likewise, some of the scenicking is museum quality and very hard to distinguish from the real thing. Again, it's not just a few guys...its more typically most of the participants. I would add that some of these sites also include big named hobbyists, the makers of instructional videos, clinicians at national conventions, etc. Entry-level sites are by no means representative of all that's going on in the hobby today, nor indicative of the level of craftsmanship that prevails. For a very significant percentage of today's hobbyists plans, scratchbuilding articles, etc. remain as important as 40 years ago.
I'd add that when your web surfing happens to cross over between these two levels of model railroading forums/websites, as mine does, it also soon becomes apparent that one faction is largely unaware (or unconcerned) that the other exists. I gather that this is why one so often hears on the entry-level sites that scatchbuilding/kitbashing, or some other advanced form of skilled modeling, is dying or dead and that something like RTR has replaced it. Such ideas are entirely untrue and largely a reflection of inexperience talking. Since you brought up his name, try asking Dave Volmer if what I've said above isn't essentially the truth. I know that he's had occasion (along with a few others here I can name) to see what some of the advanced sites are like and the typical level of modeling displayed there. He and I have talked about this dichotomy in forums before.
Just to breathe some life into what CNJ has said, check this thread out from Railroad Line Forums. That's an MDC old time 2-8-0 chassis and a Mantua Big Six boiler. http://www.railroad-line.com/discussion/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14664 . Jeff Kraker (Coaltrain) is the guy who wrote an article about re-powering an MDC Harriman 2-8-0 that appeared in the May, 2002 MR starting at page 58. Here's a link to his Photobucket site. Lots of construction photos are included there. Video of sound equipped finished engine: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwm0Xc9uIWs
One thing I will say is that the pics are are a lot more informative than any text could be. While a Mantua Big Six boiler was used, I think another route that would give good results for a similar engine would be to use the MDC 0-6-0 superstructure as an alternative.
Check out Max Magliaro's website. He's the one who used a Kato Mikado chassis and a GHQ Pennsy L-1 conversion kit to make a Pennsy I-1 2-10-0 that was featured in RMC about a year ago. http://maxcowonline.com/index.php?x=32&y=17 He also bashed an M1-a, but used two Trix K-4 chassis' to create the running gear instead of the Bachmann USRA 4-8-2. Probably built it before the USRA became available.
Also check out Russell Straw's N scale SP/T&NO models starting here: http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/585/page/1
My favorite is the GS-1 which was bashed from a Con-Cor GN S-2. http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/33420
Need an HO scale 1880's 4-4-0? Go here: http://www.1905railroadmodeling.com/loco_page/ and page down a bit. Harold mated an Athearn 4-4-0 chassis to an IHC superstructure. It really needs "square" counterweights, but a bit of styrene will solve that.
Andre
CNJ/Andre, I'm not saying there are no scratchbuilders out there, but based on what I see in NJ hobby shops over the past 10-15 years. There is the Model RR Shop in Piscataway, I believe one of - if not the - oldest shops in the US, and several other long established shops that no longer carry the quantity of Evergreen plastic, Plastruct, scale wood, and details they once carried. There is also the long steady decline in the number on companys producing these items. I'm "guessing" at the numbers from what I've seen, since there are no reliable figures as to how many are even in the hobby, as past threads have indicated.
As to the "beginners" tag, it seems to me that 10 or so kids post over & over with poor quality pics, dumb questions, and use the forum as a personal e-mail rather than PMing their comments, as well as "atta boying" eack others posts. (now watch me get censored for this!!) (I have had posts deleted because I have been "sarcastic" to one or two of them!!)
This has become an interesting dialog, and everyone certainly has, and is entitled to, their own opinion.
Any other ideas on this?
I agree that based on what is being carried in the hobby stores and train shows that scratch/parts building has declined. RTR is becoming the norm, first with locomotives, then with rolling stock, and now I am seeing more and more RTR structures. While parts are being made, they are carried being carried by fewer dealers. More and more kits are becoming low run, and kits are carried by fewer dealers.
Also, based on what I see in the hobby press, kit bashing appears to have surpassed scratch/parts building and kit bashing itself seems to have been surpassed by detailing. But all three appear to be in serious decline.
What I notice is that most model railroaders are using a lot of RTR to get their layouts up and running. I am sure there are still a lot of hobbyists for whom model building is still their main focus, but they are a minority. But this not unique to model railroading, I have seen a decline in craft shops in general. I think with many other entertainment options available, crafts of all types are just one interest among many for most people.
My hobby time is very limited, so I am focused on building a model railroad rather than building a collection of railroad models.
Enjoy
Paul
lvanhen CNJ/Andre, I'm not saying there are no scratchbuilders out there, but based on what I see in NJ hobby shops over the past 10-15 years. There is the Model RR Shop in Piscataway, I believe one of - if not the - oldest shops in the US, and several other long established shops that no longer carry the quantity of Evergreen plastic, Plastruct, scale wood, and details they once carried. There is also the long steady decline in the number on companys producing these items. I'm "guessing" at the numbers from what I've seen, since there are no reliable figures as to how many are even in the hobby, as past threads have indicated. As to the "beginners" tag, it seems to me that 10 or so kids post over & over with poor quality pics, dumb questions, and use the forum as a personal e-mail rather than PMing their comments, as well as "atta boying" eack others posts. (now watch me get censored for this!!) (I have had posts deleted because I have been "sarcastic" to one or two of them!!) This has become an interesting dialog, and everyone certainly has, and is entitled to, their own opinion. Any other ideas on this?
I think you're using brick and mortar presence for hobby suppliers and the volume of print media as the standard to determine the state of hobby activity and I'm not sure that's the right way to look at it. There's a whole lot going on out there that never hits the pages of MR or RMC and why should it? They're limited by a monthly publishing schedule that can only produce so much usable information per print cycle. Type "model railroad scratch building" into Google and see what comes up. You'll get a lot of redundant info and some irrelevancy, but there's gold out there in in cyberspace. As of this month, there's even a new quarterly (for now) cyber-mag mag for the "serious hobby" http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/magazine It's free and it's downloadable. There's a nice article in there about fine scale N scale trackwork by Bernie Kempinski (also owns Al-kem Models).
On the Hobby Zealot site, in the model railroad forums, there's a sub-forum devoted exclusively to scratchbuilding and kitbashing. http://www.zealot.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=249Over on Yahoo, there's a group whose sole focus is scratchbuilding locomotives in brass. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brasslocobuilders/ .
It doesn't have to be model railroading per se, either. I don't quite remember how I came across this, but somehow, I came across this video of a guy assembling his own desktop CNC mill: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6drMZqmyXQc . Granted he doesn't show the steps he used to create some of the components, but some of that is almost self-evident from the video. With a machine like that, you could make a lot of component goodies for scratchbuilding including milling your own steam locomotive frame. The neat thing is that CNC programs can be used to make multiple identical parts.
Apparently, there's not only a whole amateur CNC machining hobby out there, but considerable activity in building "home brew" machine tools. It kinda reminds me of the late 70's and "home brew" computer clubs which subsequently lead to the the whole PC revolution. It appears to me that the CNC hobby is largely a mail order business, much like model railroading was in the beginning. .
Related to machine tools (CNC and otherwise) is DIY casting. Type "rtv casting" and see how many references appear. That's another method to make parts for scratch-building. In my earlier post, I referred to Jeff Kraker's article in the May 2002 issue of MR on repowering an MDC 2-8-0. In that same is an article by Tom Piccirillo (owner of Micro-Mark) on making RTV molds and casting your own parts.
MR hobby content is out there as is content that, while not directly tied to model railroading, is still quite useful. All it takes is the ability to see that some item designed for another hobby is useful in one's own.
A few months ago I picked up a copy of How to Build Railroad Models By Frank Taylor Copyright 1941, Third printing 1947, published by Kalmbach. It cost me all of $3.00 plus shipping.
It has 20 plans for box cars, hopper cars, passenger cars, composite gondola car, a small station, timber trestle, wagon top box car and several more. I have found the plans to be timeless. Just substtute styrene and other modern materials available to us now and go to work.
Andre, I am using the brick & mortar etc in my opinions. I just got the new cyber mag, & belong to zealot as well as civil war & up modeling groups, where scratchbuilding is often the only way to get what you want. The problem is the lack of reliable info on the "state of the hobby". There have been numerous polls etc about where the hobby is today as opposed to the '50's, but there seems to be no real good acurate info. WS originally made mostly cast metal kits that were basically "craftsman" type kits - filing, painting, making roofs for some, etc. Now it seems that all they are making is pre assembeled buildings to go along with their painted figures! I wish they would sell more kits than RTR, but I can no longer do something like the old Walthers wood passenger car kits, which were very akin to scratchbuilding!! Kit bashing, OTOH, is something many of us would enjoy, if there were more car kits out there!! Rolling stock is now mostly RTR, and unfortunately it looks like structures are heading the same route!!
lvanhenAndre, I am using the brick & mortar etc in my opinions. I just got the new cyber mag, & belong to zealot as well as civil war & up modeling groups, where scratchbuilding is often the only way to get what you want. The problem is the lack of reliable info on the "state of the hobby". There have been numerous polls etc about where the hobby is today as opposed to the '50's, but there seems to be no real good acurate info. WS originally made mostly cast metal kits that were basically "craftsman" type kits - filing, painting, making roofs for some, etc. Now it seems that all they are making is pre assembeled buildings to go along with their painted figures! I wish they would sell more kits than RTR, but I can no longer do something like the old Walthers wood passenger car kits, which were very akin to scratchbuilding!! Kit bashing, OTOH, is something many of us would enjoy, if there were more car kits out there!! Rolling stock is now mostly RTR, and unfortunately it looks like structures are heading the same route!!
In Continental Europe, rolling stock and locos have primarily been R-T-R from the get-go AFAIK. Even so, there is some superb modeling coming out of there. I don't personally find it a big deal that there is so much R-T-R. The problem facing kit manufacturers is that, at the packing stage, there's got to be someone making sure that all the requisite parts are in in the kit box. The more complex the kit and the bigger the production run, the more time consuming and expensive that task is and the bigger the chance for error. Just from what I've been researching about CNC machinery, I have a feeling that a lot of the assembly of R-T-R items is machine done or is done with a lot of machine assistance.
"Kitbashing" doesn't require a kit. Bill Schopp was merrily bashing RTR brass engines way back when GM was profitable and made cars people were actually willing to buy. N scale has been essentially R-T-R as far as locos and rolling stock go essentially from the inception. That doesn't stop guys like Russ Straw, Max Magliaro or even our own inimitable Dave Vollmer from doing the voodoo that they do so well.
The newer plastic Walthers R-T-R passenger cars are light years ahead of the old wood and metal kits. On a relative basis, they're probably less expensive, too. You used to have to buy the body kit, superdetails, trucks and couplers separately. Today's detail is far superior to what it was. There was a post not too long ago about the old Silver Streak kits. I built a number of their cars including the caboose that was based on the SP C30-1. In all honesty, the stuff was pretty crude. Laser-Kit makes a kit that makes a nice version of the same thing and these guys http://www.traincat2.com/models.htm are making some stuff in etched brass that looks real good, including some SP cabeese. Rummage around at their site. This is a small manufacturer. You probably won't hear about it in the MSHP (mainstream hobby press). I had never heard of them until I stumbled on their website not too long ago. I felt like a kid in a candy shop when I found the site, especially since the only steel SP cabeese I had seen available was in RTR brass. 45 or 50 bucks plus the cost of trucks, couplers, paint and decals is a lot cheaper than the 3 figures you'll pay for a PSC equivalent.
The big manufacturers are going to go for what sells most. That leaves the specialty manufacturers to make the kind of stuff that you're probably interested in. If you're prototype modeler, you're probably going to be scratchbuilding a lot of structures that aren't covered by the manufacturers. Now, if Walthers would only come out with a model of the station in Monterey, CA................. Yeah, like that's going to happen.