I checked some of the threads but could not find the answer to my query. Question: is the Yellowstone just another version of the Bigboy or something else altogether? 4-8-8-4 ? Thanks in advance.
Lee
The yellowstone was a 2-8-8-4. The first production model weighed 717,000lbs and developed 5000 hp, 1000 less than it should have. It's firebox was 182 sq/ft, and when it was debuted by Alco they served dinner to 12 people inside it. The reason the firebox was so huge was because the NP wanted to burn low grade Rosebud coal.
It's funny you asked about the yellowstone, I was just reading about it last night in the Guide to North American Steam Locomotives.
Jason
Modeling the Fort Worth & Denver of the early 1970's in N scale
Yankee: Here's a brief nutshell history.
The Yellowstone was developed prior to the Big Boy, and the original Yellowstone was built for the Northern Pacific around 1929 or so. Because the NP used a very low-grade coal, the firebox was built much larger than a standard 2-8-8-2 and needed a 4-wheel trailing truck to support the firebox. Hence, the 2-8-8-4 or "Yellowstone" type (named after the Yellowstone River that the NP mainline followed for some of its mainline). The first of the Yellowstone types was built by Alco, but NP turned to Baldwin for the remainder of the locomotives. When delivered, they were among the heaviest and most powerful simple articulateds ever built.
Probably the most famous of all Yellowstones were the 18 M3-4 2-8-8-4's built by Baldwin in the 1940's for the Missabe Road in Minnesota. The Missabe wanted a powerful simple articulated capable of hauling 200 heavy ore cars without helpers on their line. Baldwin based the Missabe Yellowstones on the earlier Western Pacific 251 class 2-8-8-2's, but included a 4-wheel trailing truck to support both the firebox and a large all-weather cab. Oddly enough, the firebox area on the Yellowstones was smaller than the WP firebox, but was somewhat heavier and had a more efficient grate area. The M3-4 Yellowstones were extremely smooth-running and powerful locomotives with a starting TE of over 140,000 pounds, quite sufficient to start a heavy iron ore train. With roller bearings on all trucks and drivers, the locomotives were capable of speeds up to 70mph. (though they seldom ran that fast).
During WWII, the Balltimore & Ohio went to Baldwin for its own version of the 2-8-8-4, resulting in the EM-1, which while the lightest of the 2-8-8-4 Yellowstones at a little over 125,000 lbs TE (due to having to use lighter alloys during WWII), was more than sufficient for the B&O's trackage and grades.
There's a bit of controversy over the famous Baldwin-built Southern Pacific Cab Forward 4-8-8-2 articulateds as to whether or not they're actually 'Backward Yellowstones' or a 2-8-8-2 with a four-wheel leading truck. I'm not going to get into it (I did once, and it was pretty interesting, LOL!). But if you consider them "Backward Yellowstones," then Southern Pacific had well over 200 of those extremely successful locomotives. And with their four wheel leading truck, they were as adept at mountain passenger hauling as they were working freights over SP's many mountain crossings. They were built for a maximum hauling speed of 70 mph, and on occasion they most certainly did it.
The 25 Big Boys were developed by Union Pacific and Alco from their Challenger locomotives (in fact both classes had a great many interchangeable parts) simply extending the 4-6-6-4 wheel arrangement into a 4-8-8-4. Originally designed for heavy, fast freight service in Wyoming, the Big Boys were eventually extended from Cheyenne, Wyoming to Ogden, Utah. In service, they often doubled with Challengers over Sherman Hill and through the Wasatch Range of Utah. Like the Yellowstone, the Big Boy had a TE of over 140,000 pounds. Both the Big Boy and the Yellowstones were extremely successful simple articulateds. Union Pacific was the only railroad to have Big Boys, and they remained on UP rails during their lifetimes. The Missabe Yellowstones strayed a little further from 'home' rails in Minnesota, especially during the winters of WWII, where they saw service on the Denver and Rio Grande Western, Northern Pacific, Great Northern, and there's a rumor that they even ran on the eastern portion of the Western Pacific railroad.
There's an ongoing argument between fans of each type of locomotive as to which was the more 'successful', however the 2-8-8-4 and 4-8-8-4 were designed for entirely different types of service. As far as sheer pulling power, they were about equal. As far as speed--the Big Boy, with its larger diameter drivers (67" as opposed to the Yellowstone's 63") was designed for maximum pulling power at speed, the Yellowstone was designed for sheer pulling power. You can take your pick.
Myself, I'm a Yellowstone type of guy.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Nice explanation Tom!
As Tom has already stated, you can take you pick, but in a nutshell the Yellowstone could start more tonnage, but couldn’t move as fast.
You folks seem to have overlooked the 'prettiest' Yellowstone, the one class run by the SP about which there was never any controversy since it WASN'T designed to run firebox first.
That skyline casing was alleged to be a very efficient smoke lifter. It did result in the only 'stream-styled' articulated.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with doubleheaded mikes)
Chuck is correct (that is, I agree with him), and Tom is a student (and maybe a scholar?) of articulated locomotives.
Mark
excellent! excellent!The camparison is just what I wanted. Now I wonder who sells the yellowstone? I could only display it because of my tight radiuses though but it would sure be neat for display. Thanks one and all.
Speaking of Yellowstone, have you guys seen where the USGS thinks the Yellowstone caldera could ERRUPT very soon and like trash half the country?
Re the DMIR Yellowstones, I don't remember all the details but as mentioned earlier, by the time the M4's came along there some restrictions on certain materials and limited availability of others so the engines couldn't be built exactly like the previous M3's, so it could be the case with the feedwater heaters that the ones they wanted just weren't available so they used what they could get??
BTW "Big Boy' was supposedly chalked on the front of one of the UP 4-8-8-4s and stuck as the class name, unlike most engines which were named by the RR that first built the type - "Northerns" (and "Yellowstones") by Northern Pacific; "Hudsons" by New York Central, etc. Before the 4-8-8-4s "Big Boy" was a generic term for any large locomotive - in the 1931 film "Danger Lights" one character refers to a Milwaukee 2-8-2 as "the big boy" for example.
WaxonWaxov Speaking of Yellowstone, have you guys seen where the USGS thinks the Yellowstone caldera could ERRUPT very soon and like trash half the country?
Apparently the upper movement of the caldera floor--almost three inches a year for the past three years--is the most ever recorded since they started taking readings. However, "very soon," in geologic terms, could mean anything from "tomorrow," to "in the next 1,000 years." The U.S. Geological Survey, University of Utah and National Park Service scientists with the Yellowstone Volcano Observatory "see no evidence that another such cataclysmic eruption will occur at Yellowstone in the foreseeable future. Recurrence intervals of these events are neither regular nor predictable." Just the kind of razor sharp precision we've come to expect from rock jockeys.
As far as DM&IR Yellowstones, I'm not aware of any HO scale models that are readily available. It's a pity, as it seems everyone makes a Big Boy.
If you're ever in Duluth, the Lake Superior Railroad Museum has #227 on display, with the drivers on rollers so you can see it in action. #229 is just up the road in Two Harbors at an outdoor display. They're VERY impressive pieces of machinery.
Gary
markpierce Chuck is correct (that is, I agree with him), and Tom is a student (and maybe a scholar?) of articulated locomotives. Mark
And Tom's embarrassed as Hell that he forgot the AC-9's on the Southern Pacific, which as Chuck says, is one of the prettiest series of 2-8-8-4's ever built. Apologies to you both.
Funny thing about those Lima-built beauties--when they were transferred from New Mexico and converted to oil to work the Modoc line in Northern California, they had to be routed up the Shasta Division to Klamath Falls and then south on the Modoc line, because their overhang was too great for the snowsheds on Donner Pass.
tomikawaTT You folks seem to have overlooked the 'prettiest' Yellowstone, the one class run by the SP about which there was never any controversy since it WASN'T designed to run firebox first.
Chuck Do you know of anyplace that has a picture of that particular loco?I have been hearing about the Yellowstones on the forum and it piqued my interest.Happy New year
Lee:
Just Google up "Southern Pacific AC-9 steam locomotives" and you'll get on a number of sites with photos of these beauties.
As to model availability: In HO scale it's hard to enter a hobby shop without tripping over a Big Boy, since almost everyone has released a model of them within the past four years or so. Yellowstone models are pretty much an entire different ball of wax--they're all relatively hard to find brass models. I don't know why the difference myself, since prototypically there were FAR more Yellowstones constructed than Big Boys, but that's how it seems to be.
Personally, I have 3 Missabe-prototype M-4 Yellowstones on my layout, all older Akane models from the 1960's, and all fine runners. I keep them busy. NP, B&O and SP AC-9 models have been released in brass from time to time, but as I said before, they are few, far between and often difficult to locate.
Here's a photo of my three Missabe prototype Yellowstones--I've re-lettered them for a 'Never Was' Rio Grande 3900 series (actually, the Rio Grande borrowed the Missabes during WWII).
Tom, that is on heck of a photo!
I have #224 in N Scale with out the coal load in the tender and it is a beauty also. I selected it as it was the one that the DRGW wrecked.
A shame that the mainline manufacturers haven't picked up on it. I feel sure that most fans of big steam would want at least 1 of these.
Bob
Bob:
Thanks. I really like my 3 locos--they're powerful, quiet and very smooth. I also find it interesting that the latest model of a Yellowstone to come out has been in N-scale. I saw one at a LHS that had been special ordered, and it was an absolute beauty. Glad you've got one--even if it was the one that Rio Grande wrecked --from what I understand it was coming off of the Moffat and the engineer forgot that it did NOT have the usual Rio Grande water-brake system and it sailed off of one of the Big Ten curves--I think it was repaired and put back into service, wasn't it?. I've got film of it on one of my Rio Grande videos, and it looked pretty banged up to say the least.
I'm still wondering why in HO one of the major manufacturers has not put out a non-brass one, especially with 4 prototypes to choose from. I remember inquiring about this one time and I was given the answer that the "Yellowstone was too 'railroad specific'." HUH? What about the "Big Boy?" I mean, how 'railroad specific' was THAT one?
Oh well, perhaps someone out there is listening. I notice that everytime we have one of our frequent "Wish Lists" on the Forum here, the Yellowstone (from any of the railroads that rostered them) is pretty high on the steam 'want-list.'
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't P2K have out a Yellowstone? I want to say that that I saw it in the Walther's seasonal catolog. I think it is going for around 5 bills. I told my wife that she should be happy that I'm not modeling Steam for those prices. Still I would love to have one because I model MRL and when I get my "dream layout" going I want to have retro days of NP steam.
--Zak Gardner
My Layout Blog: http://mrl369dude.blogspot.com
http://zgardner18.rrpicturearchives.net
VIEW SLIDE SHOW: CLICK ON PHOTO BELOW
To my knowlege, the only articulated that P2K has available is a compound USRA 2-8-8-2, that I think is released for several railroads including Northern Pacific, but it's a much earlier locomotive than the original NP 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone.
The only non-brass Yellowstone I've ever seen is a model of the NP original Yellowstone that was put out by the Varney corporation in the late 'thirties and early 'forties--it had a cast aluminum boiler and came as a kit with only the back drivers powered.
twhite To my knowlege, the only articulated that P2K has available is a compound USRA 2-8-8-2, that I think is released for several railroads including Northern Pacific, but it's a much earlier locomotive than the original NP 2-8-8-4 Yellowstone. The only non-brass Yellowstone I've ever seen is a model of the NP original Yellowstone that was put out by the Varney corporation in the late 'thirties and early 'forties--it had a cast aluminum boiler and came as a kit with only the back drivers powered. Tom
Yeah that's what it was, a USRA not a Yellowstone. None the less, still I wouldn't mind one
Lucky for us in N Scale, Athearn has made a BigBoy with sound that by all reports is a winner and Intermountain is getting ready to bring a cab forward to market (I have one on order).
That bodes well for a non brass run of Yellowstones for us in any of a number of road names of similar sizes for less than $400.00.
My #224 looks awesome when it passes those tiny 2-8-8-2's and when next to my Clinchfield Challenger, it still looks a bit longer. I passed on the BigBoy as it was a one road wonder, plus the Yellowstone busted my budget for quite awhile. Believe me, I thought long and hard on the BigBoy!
I have advocated for an affordable Yellowstone for any number of years now….Maybe someday! Yes, the brass are nice but the budget just cannot justify it.
The DM&IR did run a number of 2-8-8-2 mallets early on, but found they didn’t have the power nor the efficiency. Therefore the push for the 2-8-8-4.
I have a P2K 2-8-8-2 that I plan to bash it into one of the DM&IR Hill Mallets.
These were used extensively on Proctor Hill, up and down to the docks (therefore “hill”) after being retired from road service. However, they also saw some additional road service later (after being converted to single expansion) when the road needed additional power. So, one of these P2K would / could fit a Yellowstone timeframe on the DM&IR.
I'm not much of a prognosticator, but I'm here to predict that we will see a 2-8-8-4 reasonably soon. I make this prediction based solely on my experience: I wanted a 2-6-6-2 USRA as used by the W&LE then later the NKP. There were none made in "high end" plastic, so I bit the bullet and bought an Akane one. It was not all that good of a model but it was purchased only about 5 months prior to the Bachmann announcement of their Spectrum 2-6-6-2! Now, I'm on the hunt for either an EM-1 as these ran close to where I grew up OR a DM&IR Yellowstone. As soon as I get one of the (later model & much better Akanes (I hope)), you can bank on someone announcing and producing one in high end plastic!
The sacrifices I make for this hobby that go unnoticed by the rest of you guys are just incredible! ; )
dlm
I think the manufactures do what may sell, the yellostones going brass as there might not be the mass market. But keep checking the brass sites and ebay as they show up in brass from time to time, the Akanes are going around the plastic prices (P2k, BLI-PCM prices) but the newer precision model is over a thousand. Akane model is nice and the one I bought was a never run model, lucky me, and I think Akane did a pretty sizeable run on those engines, why they seem to be fairly available in the brass market.
If someone were to do a Yellowstone I would predict BLI-PCM, or if MTH keeps going the way they are, maybe they would. Not going into MTH arguements here.
The railroads had engines designed for their needs and the N&W Y6b was more powerful than the Big Boy, but designed for slow heavy mountain grades, shorter for the turntable size. Big Boys needed speed for the long desert runs and mastering Sherman Hill, a long time grunge problem on the UP.
I have heard when the Big Boys get full running steam they get the stoker running full tilt and the coal barely hits the grate before being burned up. The Big Boys are mad burners and why you may never see them in fan trips or restored to operating, they would be plenty expensive to run.
DM&IR and B&O are not my mainprototype interest but as a kid I heard the recording of the DM&IR yellowstone and it was such a ghostly whistle and running the engine had to be a must have model to have. This is one loco that must get modeled full tilt sound and all.
Check your private message.
CZ
Thanks! Check your email... : )
I grew up just a few blocks from the B&O yards in Lorain Oh, and it seemed that 5 or 6 days a week, an EM-1 would come in to town with a hundred or more loads of West Virginia coal, and leave the same day with a similar load of soutbound Taconite. And Southbound was somthing like a 0.75% grade uphill. Great treat was one cold February when they not only doubleheaded a pair, but had to couple in a trio of L class 0-8-0s to help get the load moving, one on the head end and two pushing. Maybe they weren't the biggest or strongest steam locomotives, but to an eigth grader, they were huge and impressive machines.
I still have nightmares about a few years ago when at a show, someone was offering a pair of Akane EM-1s for $150.00 each, and I couldn't get the cash he wanted on a Sunday (no ATMs then).
EM-1 I still have nightmares about a few years ago when at a show, someone was offering a pair of Akane EM-1s for $150.00 each, and I couldn't get the cash he wanted on a Sunday (no ATMs then).
Since retirement, my most frequent nightware is that I have returned from retirement to work at my old job.
EM-1I still have nightmares about a few years ago when at a show, someone was offering a pair of Akane EM-1s for $150.00 each, and I couldn't get the cash he wanted on a Sunday (no ATMs then).
Ouch! I think that has happened to all of us at one time or another. About 15-20 years ago, I found myself at one of the train shows in Toledo and a guy was selling off his collection of NKP stuff. Among the items was really nice set of hoppers that he wanted something like $5 each for... but only as a set. He must have had about 15 of them and wouldn't take a check. I probably didn't really need them but it would have been a heck of a deal... they were built with individual numbers, real coal loads, metal wheels & Kadee couplers... and they were weathered! I just didn't have the $$$ that he wanted. : (