TODAY'S ECONOMY

[aloco]

I suspect that we, too, are going to have the Albatross of Socialized Medicine draped around our neck ...

I like socialized medicine.  If it wasn't for socialized medicine I wouldn't be sitting here and replying to your comment. 

[Last Chance]

I for one could care less about medicines. Im old school. If something breaks, fix it and give me a bottle of pain meds. Otherwise if something really bad, just hospice thank you. Ive already used my 9 lives out there on the big road.

Im not going to make the spouse sink what little life insurance there is into a mountain of last ditch hospital billing or worse .. ineffective nursing homes that basically takes away everything you have including the power to choose, make decisions etc. None of that for me, I go out on my terms.

I dont mind going to the Doctor for some boo boo and fixing it for a few dollars in billing or perhaps adjusting a problem to improve quality of life for a few thousand dollars. But that is where I draw the line.

[Texas Zepher]

and the greedy Wall Street bastards may have taken that hard earned joy away from us.

And just whom would that be?  Wall Street itself has almost nothing to do with the recent situation.  All they do is provide a forum for others to buy and sell stocks that other people tell them to.  I THINK you mean the investment bankers and investment firms.

[Capt. Grimek]

Ya know, the bad rap (and there ARE some problems) that socialized medicine gets are very minor compared to the ease that you can lose your house if you have a catastrophic health issue and your insurance company decides not to pay up due to some fine print leagalize b.s.

I have many many Canadian friends and they have had such issues and in spite of small annoyances, they
are VERY happy with their socialized health care system. They NEVER EVER have to worry about losing their home and livelihoods to $5-10 per aspirin charges and the the "consultant fees" that ANY doctor who swings around your hospital room door jamb and inquires politely, ("How're you feeling today?") like in the U.S. AND
never (in spite of media statements) have had to forestall critical surgeries due to waiting periods.

I always hear it said that we should feel lucky that our gas prices are only what they are because in
Europe it's been over $5 per gallon for years. Yeah, BUT no one ever seems to say that those extra
fuel taxes are paying for their free (ok, literally low cost) health care at the pump! What do WE get
at the pump besides screwed?

Whatever your feelings about Michael Moore (and yes, I agree some of his practices are questionable)
if you haven't seen the film "Sicko" you should, just to see how health care in France and England aren't the put you in the poor house issue it is in our country. It's shameful. One of the richest, most civilized countries on the planet
and when my Dad and Mom died, the phone book thick billing packet had about twenty thousand dollars
worth of billing on EACH and EVERY page.

Have you had a car insurer argue payinig damages on your car? Try the joy of that with cancer care!

Sorry, but I will always completely disagree that private insurance is the way to go, from sorry experience.

/>I am not a liberal or a conservative. (Well maybe a reformed Conservative). I vote for specific issues and the person but some issues are so clear in their basic humanity, common sense and justice that, at least for me there is no argument.

When your spouse is going to die because the private insurer you paid thousands and thousands of bucks to over the last few years, says sorry, "pre-existing condition" or whatever, maybe "Socialized" medicine
will look suddenly very attractive! I just wish they'd change the name. Even though socialized and communist are two different things, due to their mis-use and combining through the 20th century
it's causing great harm for folks to constantly be thinking they are one and the same thing.

I hope not to lose any wonderful train friends here, but I've been on the losing end of our "wonderful" medical system and it DOES need to be removed from the private sector or at least citizens should be given the choice as to which system they'd like to contribute and trust.




Texas Zypher, I don't understand...Why aren't investment banks considered part of Wall Street? Wasn't WaMu a publicly traded stock?
Lehman Bros. was also a publicly traded stock? They weren't only investment firms also brokerages and sometimes insurance companies. All Wall Street Firms. Wall Street based corporations are the ones who've lied about Bond insurance ratings, hiding/packaging sub prime mortages in other investments along with companies (who might not literally be considered Wall Street, like Fannie and Freddie Mac (more federal?) or Countrywide Realty who might were a bank, basically.

[maxman]

Heartland Division CB&Q wrote:

"First a big THANKS to people who so far have kept politics out of this thread."

Everyone has an opinion, and I would defend to the death everyone's right to express that opinion whether I happened to agree with it or not.  That being said, there were 12 posts following the one quoted.  In the last 7 of those, the word "train" was mentioned no more than twice.  That being the case, it would be MY opinion that it is now time to get back to railroad related topics, whatever they might be.

Regards

[Last Chance]

Thread topic is Economics.

I will defend Medicine's impact on Economics here. My spouse was a cancer survivor... ok we both are survivors. During the height of her Chemo at the VA, we were provided booster shots to support her vitamins during the Chemo week and 8 days after each treatment. We were told on the way out the door never to let those prefilled needles thaw out above 55 degrees F because they cost roughly 18 thousand dollars each to dear old Uncle Sam.

Without those shots I dont think my spouse would be with us today. But if Spouse were not part of the VA and had to get those in the private sector by ourselves with our tiny insurance... we would have done without the shots.

Economics. Pay for the shots and lose all you own including house once the Billing comes in or.... take the shots because you are covered through the Government from Prior Military Service. 

Because Im just a private citizen and if faced with the Chemo, I would not do it. There are obscene amounts of money that can be billed to me should I elect to do it. Im sure that some individuals have not taken the time to sit down and think for a moment if they should get into a bad wreck on the freeway going to work... and find themselves in the Trauma Care costing tens of thousands of dollars each week with a future still to be determined... if that person survives.

Nope, sorry. I feel that our Medical System is out of balance and possibly out of touch with the real world financial ability of anyone making 30 thousand dollars or less per year to pay.

That is why I take a strong position on life and death. When it's time, it's time. And the Spouse will be taken care of without worry for basic needs for a very long time. To me that would make me very happy indeed.

[tinman1]

 The cars and trucks are paid for. The house has a ways to go on a 30yr fixed. I know if the assesor ups the value any more I'm going to tell him to write me a check. . While many people are happy gas prices have dropped, fuel has not followed. I'm still baffled why fuel is almost $1 more a gal than gas. The fact that I pay $30-$40 a day in fuel has definately took a chunk out of the hobby fund. I'll get by though. A little ingenuity and creativity and the layout WILL progress. Alot of people have gotten used to just buying finished products, and there is alot of products.

 Something to think about; If an insurance company can deny a claim for a pre-existing condition, can the previous insurer be billed? I might actually be in this predicament. Even though I was never "un-insured", I'm sure my injury happened at exactly midnight, so neither is responsible.  

[jbinkley60]

 

I was out at the Wheaton train show today and attendance was pretty good.  This is the second time  I've made the trek to attend this show.  I bought a nmumber of things and would have bought more, had I been able to find them.  No, the economy has not made any dents in my hobby spending, just the value of my portfolio. 

I'll withhold sharing any political opinions.  Hopefully others can show such restrain.

 

[NEMMRRC]

I have 25 more years before I retire. That means I am now buying 401k shares at bargain basement prices.

My wife and I don't go out to eat unless we have a buy-one-get-one-free (BOGO) coupon. Both our cars are paid for. We have no debt. We live on a budget. We shop for household goods and clothes at garage sales. Just yesterday I found 2 Ralph Lauren Polo shirts for $1 each and a used Linksys wireless router that still works fine for $5. We found several large bags of Miracle Gro and fertilizer for $2 each. They will come in handy since we recently sodded our front yard. If only I could find train stuff bargains at yard sales. Gasoline is now around $2.80 where I live.

My hobby budget has actually increased this year. So far I've been to the National Narrow Gauge Convention and plan to attend the Craftsman Structure Show next month. I've already purchased one of the limited edition big kits released each year by each of the big name kit makers (FSM, SRM, etc.).

So, the bad economy has not hurt my hobby nor my lifestyle. For the first time in about a year I began to look for some bargains on kits on eBay (Campbell, FSM, SRM, Sierra West, etc.) considering some folks may be trying to raise some extra cash by selling their train stuff on eBay.

Jaime

[Been Nothing Since Frisco (BNSF)]

I guess the question I pose is "Are you OK with the economy, or has it impacted your hobby $?"

The economy is in bad shape, no doubt about it, (you must have been born and rased in a cave if you thinks it's in good shape) and yes it have afected me because every thing has went through the roof on pice.

[secondhandmodeler]

If you will all pardon an observation... It seems like most of you folks that aren't being affected are retired and living off of work pensions and wise investments from back when those things were available. (and maybe SS to boot.)
I fear to think how the 20-30 year olds on this forum would answer this same question 40 years from now since they're going to grow old with no company sponsored pensions and probably no SS.

(Just an observation...)

 Thank you very much.  You are correct, there will be no pension or social security by the time I retire.  Well, I won't be able to claim ignorance if I end up broke!

[tangerine-jack]

Well I just checked and for the record I am not living under a rock and I'm not over 65.  I have money in the bank and money in my pocket.  I have always lived within my means and never bought outside of my ability to pay.  Current economic outlook- bright and cheery!

Gas prices are dropping, my pay is going up, my retirement fund has increased, so what is wrong with the economy?  Not a thing my friends......

[Kenfolk]

Ah...its the one's planning to retire shortly that are being hit hard, with losses in 401K funds in double digits.

Around here, there have been lots of layoffs in just the last couple of months, and not a lot of hiring going on. Lots of bankruptcies.

Yes lots are doing fine (as am I) right now, but I am very concerned about those that are being hit very hard right now (including those impacted by corporate pension plans losses).

I am concerned about our local hobby shops too, as people spend more of what they have for essentials (oh, thats right--model trains are essential  ).  And lots of the smaller operations don't have a lot of margin. If the sales drop, they'll be in trouble pretty fast, especially with credit tight right now.

At the risk of sounding too glib, I believe it IS helpful to go out and buy stuff right now. Those that feel ok can show confidence by purchasing. It helps the economy.  Buy some stock, too, at low prices...

[CSXDixieLine]

While I am not terribly affected by the overall global economy (knock on wood), my family economy sucks big time right now because of some serious unexpected expenses over the last several months. However, we have been pinching pennies--almost literally--and it is nice to know that layout progress has been moving along nicely for a few months even though my budget over that time has been limited to about $10 for a couple of contersinking drill bits that I have developed a nice feel for breaking. Jamie

[Texas Zepher]

Texas Zypher, I don't understand...Why aren't investment banks considered part of Wall Street? Wasn't WaMu a publicly traded stock?

Well if being publicly traded makes up "Wall Stree" then all the Class 1 railroads have to be included too becuase they are publicly traded companies.  Likewise an "Investment bank" deals in a lot more investments than just stocks and mortgauges.  But see next guote below....    Truthfully those who are upset with the economy should probably be angry at all the people (as in citizens) who borrowed too much money, didn't pay their bills, went bankrupt.  Had they not done that, we probably would be talking about which DCC system some newbie should buy, or if 6" around the room is better than a 4x8. 

All Wall Street.

There is the rub.  We have totally different definitions of "Wall Street."  When the people in my circles say Wall Street we are exclusively speaking of the Exchanges such as The New York Stock Exchange, the NASDAQ, S&P, etc.  You are using in the much broader sense of all the businesses who have seats, are brokers, and finance the transactions that occur in the exchanges.

--------------- break change topics ------------- 

I said before the economy would not effect my trains.... but thinking about it the 44% increase in the Walthers 20th Century Limited will probably keep me from buying one.  Is that part of the economy?

 

[R. T. POTEET]

I suspect that we, too, are going to have the Albatross of Socialized Medicine draped around our neck ...

I like socialized medicine.  If it wasn't for socialized medicine I wouldn't be sitting here and replying to your comment. 

Yep!

I had one of our Canadian snowbirds tell me a few years back that there was only one thing wrong with Socialized Medicine . . . . . . . . . . and you have to get sick to find out what that is!!!

[tstage]

Gentlemen:

Let me kindly remind you that this topic is straying away from the OP.  Please keep it on topic - i.e. as the current economy affects your hobby dollars.  Discussions and comments on and about socialized medicine are off-topic and political in nature.

Thank you for your consideration.

Tom

[BRAKIE]

I said before the economy would not effect my trains.... but thinking about it the 44% increase in the Walthers 20th Century Limited will probably keep me from buying one.  Is that part of the economy?

--------------------------------------------------

 I think not..It may have deeper roots seeing that is a railroad specific train and the majority of the modelers I know are focus on their favorite road names,freelance or may not want a passenger train that requires large curves to look right..

 Having visited several clubs I have notice the old school ways of buying every road name under the sun seems to been replace by local roads like- say-a collection of B&O,C&O,NYC,N&W,NS,CSX,CR,WE,NKP etc locomotives  instead of buying every road name under the sun.

I also suspect that as model prices continue to climb and come with road specific details we will see modelers narrowing their selection of locomotives if not focusing on one or two road name..

[Lillen]

Removed my message after reading the moderator wishes a few posts up which arrived whiel I was writing. It was about socialized medicine.

 

 

Magnus

[loathar]

Lillen wrote-you will have to wait for a while to get there, sometimes upwards of a week. When I lived in Stockholm and I broke my foot I had to spend an entire day at the emergency ward just to get an x-ray. For the check up I had to wait another three weeks during which I could not work and to had be at home sick.

 

That's pretty standard here too. Even with good insurance.

[Jimmydieselfan]

Well I'm not all warm and fuzzy about the economy. In fact I'm extremely concerned. I work in new home construction(self employed) and it is so slow here I have had to take on a lot of work on the side to help pay the bills,(1300 mortgage, 500 truck payment,600 car payment 350 health insurance , 750 credit cards, plus all the usuall bills )I still spend on trains but not much maybe 50.00/month. I'm glad I bought most of my train equipment two years ago.

Three years ago I was making six figures, this year I'll be lucky if I break 40,000. That my freinds is a big hit. Making it worse is everything costs so much more nowadays. I'm sure glad my girlfreind has a good , stable job.

[IRONROOSTER]

Ah...its the one's planning to retire shortly that are being hit hard, ...

Yep, that's me.  My current situation is just fine, but retirement will be delayed a couple of years.  Fortunately, the Democrats will be in control so Social Security should be safe and maybe we can get universal health care as well.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Trynn_Allen2]

Well let's see.  I'm 36 the house is in year three of a thirty year, the cars are paid for there's nothing on the CC's that can't be paid off at the end of the month and our health is fine.

That being said.  My wife's retirement has hit a snag at the moment with the stock market, but we went deal hunting last night and found a couple.  My retirement is in a state employee fund that took a hit, but survived with only .5% loss under predicted gains.  So that isn't too bad at all, considereing and since the wife and I are a long ways from retiring theres no real worry.

As for the train budget, well that got put a bread and water level for now, because of the need to get the house resided.  Can't say that the economy is doing a number on the budget but restoring a 100 year old house is.  Thank god upgrading the electrics and the plumbing was cheapish.  At the very least we can plug in the baseboards and not worry about the tube and knob being an ignition source.

[luvadj]

As for our spending in the hobby, We have always spent what we want on the trains and layouts, but then again, we've always been frgual with our finances. I mostly buy at shows, shop for bargains and we build much of what we want on the layout.

The patio layout I started on 2 months ago has cost less than $50 so far. That $12 sheet of foam board from Home Depot has seen more mileage than I could ever imagined; from tabletop to mountain forms. I for one, refuse to have these sour economic times rob me of living a life.

 

[whitman500]

Last week was certainly a disaster for me financially.  Have probably lost more than $200K in the market since Labor Day.  I actually work on Wall Street so I'm in the middle of the meltdown and it's hard to focus on your day-to-day job when the market falls 5% a day.  I work for a small investment firm and the meltdown hasn't really trickled down to our level yet but I suspect the next couple of years may not be very good.

Relatively speaking, I suppose I shouldn't complain since many of my peers will be losing their jobs and there is not much risk of that for me.  Wall Street has certainly come in for a lot of vilification over the past few weeks yet most of the people who will lose their jobs had nothing to do with subprime mortgages or bad lending practices and didn't make a fortune off of the most recent bubble.  While people do get paid a lot at investment banks and private equity firms, the jobs themselves suck.  Almost everyone I know in the industry hates their job and is just trying to make enough money to retire and do something else.  Thanks to the last few weeks, the next couple of years will be particularly miserable since the pressure to perform will be higher than ever, our bosses angrier than ever, and the pay will be much lower.

Anyway, I went to the Timonium Show (had made plans several weeks in advance).  I still bought things but not like I normally would.  It's sort of silly to try and save $200 on train purchases to make up for $200K in stock market losses but it's the mindset that you get into. 

[Blind Bruce]

Until the Canadian dollar goes back to near par, I am not buying any train stuff at all. We are at 80 cents on the dollar now with no end in sight.

[R. T. POTEET]

 

If you will all pardon an observation... It seems like most of you folks that aren't being affected are retired and living off of work pensions and wise investments from back when those things were available. (and maybe SS to boot.)
I fear to think how the 20-30 year olds on this forum would answer this same question 40 years from now since they're going to grow old with no company sponsored pensions and probably no SS.

(Just an observation...)

 Thank you very much.  You are correct, there will be no pension or social security by the time I retire.  Well, I won't be able to claim ignorance if I end up broke!

Now is the time for you to be pounding on the desk of your congressman--metaphorically speaking, of course--demanding that at least a portion of Social Security be privatized. When G. W.--that's Bush XLIII for the uninitiated--advocated a positive position in that regard he was jumped on with both feet, chastised as "Gambling your retirement away in the stock market!" Why the objection to "Gambling your retirement away in the stock market?"--because if you remove Social Security from the general fund you are, in effect, removing 38% of the Federal Government's income; that means--HORROR OF HORRORS!!--that the Federal Budget would have to be cut by 38%!  Nobody, of course, wants to cut government spending! I always refer to that mythical "Social Security Trust Fund" as our "National Debt" which is what it has become.

Your return on your Social Security investment--your contribution as "Slick Willie" Jefferson labeled it--is currently only about 1.75%. The SSA--that's Social Security Administration for the uniinitiated--pronounces that you will redeem all of your contributions to the system in three years; what they fail to tell you is that it will take you twenty seven years to redeem the estimated value of your account at a 5.28% anticipated market growth. ONLY ONE IN THIRTY-THREE RECIPIENTS  EVER  COLLECTS SOCIAL SECURITY ENTITLEMENTS FOR  TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS. And, of course, we all know what happens to our "ACCOUNT" when we assume room temperature in a horizontal repose. I am 68 years of age; medical problems forced me to go on Social Security at the age of 64 about 18 months earlier than I had originally planned. I admit to having squandered most of my earning potential and I, consequently, was never a great wage earner so my "contributions"--I call them "confiscations"--to Social Security was minimal. I have already collected my "confiscations" and am currently working on my employer's "confiscations". I still have a few years to go before I begin to collect on the "investment" portion of my account!

It took Otto von Bismarck's Pension system set up in the late 1870s forty-eight years to redeem itself and become completely self-supporting. As I understand the German system something to the tune of 12% of your wage/salary must be invested in a Pension. If you do not have a private Pension the government will invest it for you. At your retirement your Pension management will annuitize your Pension for, I believe it is, thirty years. I read somwhere that most of these Pensions redeem 20% more than you were receiving at the time of your retirement. If you have private assets you don't even have to take all--or any even--of your annuity. When you assume that 'horizontal repose at room temperature' any monies left in your Pension account automatically becomes part of your estate!

secondhandmodeler, you are absolutely correct; the day is coming when there will be no Social Security and with TODAY'S ECONOMY there may not even be any pensions. Franklin Roosevelt, when ask why he had set up the Social Security system as he had replied "So some SOB can't come along and change it!" At least on this issue what this country needs is more SOBs in congress.

And that, dear friends and fellow travelers, concludes today's diatribe!

 

[tstage]

And that, fellow forum members, concludes this regularly scheduled program.  Time to move on...

Tom