I realize that this question has most likely been asked in the past, respectfully I will pose it again. I have never had a brass loco (HO). What benefits would brass have over plastic to make someone purchase a brass loco. I would like to hear about the pro's and con's in each category.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
As I've understood, the difference, aside from the collection standpoint, is that brass equals limited, often hand made runs, far more detailed models, and more prototype specific pieces.
Plastic equals common prototypes, fewer details in general, some molded on detail, and large production runs to offset tooling costs.
Often your specific proto engine will have to be rendered from a similar model with variable degrees of added detail parts, kitbashing, and even some scratchbuilding efforts depending on how close the original model came to the particular engine in question, and how available the detail parts may be, and more importantly, how picky you are about having proto matching equipment on your layout.
Price, obviously, will be a very large issue, where a brass engine may cost from $500 to $2000 or even more, a good plastic one can be had for $100 or even less. Spending $500 or more on one engine is not feasable for me at this time, and may never be, but for others, it's just part of the hobby.
For those of us modelling more obscure roads/eras/regions/prototypes, 'close enough' may have to do, as neither brass or plastic versions of road-specific engines are available.
Add: in the past brass operated much more smoothly than the cheap plastic engines available, but the difference may not be so great now, since we have a wide variety of excellent running plastic models available. I would expect a very expensive brass loco to run perfectly for a very long time given the money spent on it.
People buy brass because it's BRASS, particular locos are only made in brass, hence, it's the only route to go. As to cost, don't think all brass is over $1000.00. I found a site and there are others, that sell excellent used brass for under $500 and some beautiful locomotives for $250 and most have small guarantees. and remember they buy them because they are
BRASS
Older brass can be less detailed than newer plastic. Because they are metal and model trains run on electrical currrent, there are more opportunities for shorts in an all metal model. Brass also has a very long lifespan, so there are many brass models out there with older mechanisms that are crude by moden standards. A major benefit of a brass model is, its made out of metal. That means its heavier than plastic and heavier generally means more pulling power, espcially in smaller models.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I own several pieces of brass, and run them regularly. This includes diesels, steamers, electrics, and self propelled equipment, as well as coaches, freight cars, and cabooses.
Brass - Pro:1) Specific prototype model - If you model the NH Shore Line after 1955, you need the 5-axle FL9 which is not available in plastic.2) Prototype fidelity - If you want a NH I-4 4-6-2 Pacific, you can either start with a USRA-type and make many changes (including boiler, wheels, tender, and many other details), or you can buy a brass one already done for you that is very accurate.3) Weight - Brass models can have weight easily added to them as they are usually hollow. On brass steam locos models, they can even have hot lead poured into them to make them superheavy...allowing for more prototypical train lengths to be pulled.4) Detail - Brass always has more and better detail then their contemporary plastic models. Where a plastic model might have molded in place screens and grab irons, brass locos tend to use real screen and separate grab irons.Brass - Con:a) Expense - Make no mistake, brass is more expensive in just about every way, shape and form.b) Tracking Ability - Brass, as a rule of thumb, doesn't like rough track work. Many of the diesel trucks are sprung but without enough weight to make them flex, steamers can have crooked frames, cars can have trucks that are too stiff, etc.c). Reliability - Old brass (1970's and older) can have serious drive problems of splitting gears, rotting rubber, etc. All brass, no matter the age, also have a greater odds of a short circuit just waiting to happen (especially steam). d) Noise - Most brass diesels tend to have more drive noise because of the brass gears used.
Plastic - Pro:1) Smoother Drives - The best drives are plastic drives (Kato, Atlas, et al).2) Less expensive - Plastic is almost always less money to buy.3) More reliable - Plastic locos tend to work for decades without major maintenance.4) Tracking - Most every kind of plastic loco or car rolls better and stays on the rail better.5) DCC - Most new plastic models have DCC plugs, or even DCC and sound already installed.
Plastic - Con:a) Generic models - Plastic is mass produced. Most plastic models are made for multiple road names, which means that RR specific details tend to be missing.b) Molded on detail - Plastic models have come a long way, but there are still many models with most detail molded in place, rather than in pieces.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Hi!
I've been in the hobby since the '50s, and found that brass models - particularly in th '60s-'80s - were of locos that just could not be had in plastic. Obviously they cost a lot more, were typically truer to the prototypes, and were a collector piece in their own right. Most were offered unpainted, which was often a plus to the collector of brass or those who wanted their own painting applied.
In the late '80s thru today, companies like Lifelike (Proto), Atlas, Stewart, Kato, and the like began to put out some really nice diesels that would give most brass locos a run for the money. And then Proto, BLI, Athearn, Bachmann and the like started putting out steam locos, which are also a good comparison to brass.
IMHO, todays brass folks - other than strict collectors - want the brass as they are typically more detailed, and of a lesser popular prototype. They are still more expensive, and some continue to be in need of tuning before they can be run.
So I guess the decision to go brass or plastic, kind of boils down to money, and to availability of the particular model you want.
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
As others have mentioned, a lot of people buy brass because the specific thing they want isn't available in plastic, or no good models have been made in plastic. Brass is usually more detailed too. And as for the cruddy drives in earlier brass, NWSL makes replacement parts to turn most all of them into top performers.
Of course, some brass is NOT well detailed and looks worse than most cheaper plastic models. One example is the Gem F9, which was Bachmann's model for their own plastic F9 (if you put the two side by side, they're completely identicle except for the Bachmann's molded on details).
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As a modeler whose large steam roster is 95% brass, I'd say that the other posters have covered the pros and cons very well and very fairly. Older brass can be made to run smoothly and well with motor replacement--and in some cases, gear replacement from NWSL. Newer brass often needs to be re-weighted and re-balanced (some of them are pretty light from the factory), and above all, the brass owner has to develop a love of TINKERING. Which is true of real steamers, they had to be shopped after so many hours of running--well, sometimes brass needs this also. Usually nothing major--adjustment of gears, lubing of rods, etc.
As to older brass not being as detailed as newer models--this is true in a great many cases, though not all. For instance, I have a 1963 Akane USRA heavy 4-6-2 that has an ASTONISHING amount of detail on it--I also have older brass that I've had to 'decorate' with newer castings from Cal-Scale or PSC to improve their looks.
As to the price of brass vs. plastic--yes, brass is more expensive. However, older and used brass locos can be had from a number of distributors at extremely reasonable prices. And as far as electrical contact--David is right. There is a more limited power contact with brass, as the loco only picks up from one side of the drivers and the tender from the opposite side. However even this shortcoming can be alleviated with the use of Tomar track-slide shoes that are almost invisible when installed to provide additional pickup area. I've done this with some formerly recalcitrant brass locos, and the result is at least a 60% improvement in control and smoothness. In fact, as a matter of course, I've installed the Tomars on ALL my brass locos, older or not.
And yes, brass DOES require larger radii than plastic, it's made to much tighter tolerances. If one was contemplating purchasing a brass loco for, say, an 18" radius, you'd probably be pretty much limited to either 0-6-0, 4-6-0 or 2-8-0 (and a 2-8-0 just might be squeezing it). Most larger brass locomotives aren't really comfortable on much less than a 28" radius, and some, especially ten-coupled locomotives will give you a lot of trouble on anything less than 30-32". And yes, generally speaking, brass is VERY picky about track. Especially sectional track.
My advice: If you're modeling a railroad that is fairly well represented in today's smooth running plastic models--go for it.
If you're modeling (as I am) a railroad whose steam power can ONLY be got in brass--well, welcome to a brand-NEW adventure in model railroading.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
davidmbedard wrote: 2) Brass will find every bit of poorly laid track and they typically hate tight radius. For example, if you bought a BLI PRR J1 (2-10-4), you will be able to run it on 24" curves.....the equivalent in Brass will require 32-38 in radius curves (depending on the maker). Even worse would be a Big Boy. Athearn makes one that will run on 18" radius curves, a Brass Big Boy that has a rigid set of rear wheels will require upwards of 40" to run.
On the other hand with brass you won't be able to accept crappy track and you will be less inclined to run a Big Boy on small radius curves which looks terrible. So in a way, forcing you to have good track and better looking radii may be a plus for brass.
Caveat - all of the below refers to steam locomotives.
Brass VS Plastic? Maybe this should be Brass OR Plastic [or cast zinc, cast lead, wood (don't laugh yet), lacquered shirt cardboard...]
The starting point is, what prototype locomotive do you want a model of, how much detail do you want it to have and how badly do you want it? If the locomotive you crave is manufactured in present-day plastic, DCC ready and with a proper paint job right out of the box, count your blessings and carry on.
If you want one of the thousands of locomotives that HAVEN'T been mass-manufactured in the recent past, maybe someone imported a brass model. In that case, maybe you can outbid the collectors and get a good (ready to rework) model off E-gad or the consignment shelf of your LHS. Be aware that there are people who collect these things as if they were Ming vases or Hummel plates, and that the prices sometimes reflect that. Also be aware that older brass locos had open-frame amp-guzzlers for motors and (sometimes) drive systems that were, in a word, primitive. I run a lot of brass locos, and locos with brass superstructures and cast alloy frames. I don't collect brass, but that was the way the locos I wanted were available at my no-longer-local hobby outlets.
There are also zinc alloy cast locomotives, some of which have outstanding, if limited, detail. By adding some aftermarket accessories and running them through the paint shop you might end up with your heart's desire - but, the older ones have all the bad features of old brass without that redeeming golden gleam. (I have a Mantua 0-4-0 and a Tenshodo 0-6-0T that are approaching Social Security age - both have their original open-frame motors, both still run and both have a spot in my overall scheme of things.)
I do have one 0-4-0T that is, almost literally, a block of lead with a wheel at each corner. It has a BIG open-frame vertical motor, and no space inside for any kind of a decoder. It's butt-ugly, but just the kind of thing that would have survived into the mid-20th century in private rail service. (It was also a gift from my sister-in-law, so it has considerable sentimental value.)
Now, what if you want a loco that has never been manufactured in any form by anyone? 'Way back in the dark ages, MR published a couple of kitbash-freelance projects (Building a Kitchen Table Locomotive and one other) that called for carving and turning boilers from hunks of broom handle! Other somewhat contemporary articles included detailing with improvised parts and re-contouring a boiler by layering paper on the original. I don't doubt that, somewhere out there, some cash-poor soul substituted cardboard for sheet brass when duplicating a Mel Thornburgh model. Or, if the skills and tools are available, you can build your own locomotive from the ground up using whatever materials you are comfortable with.
So, in the final analysis, there is no VERSUS. If you want a specific model of a specific prototype, or if you want to freelance something that never saw an erecting floor, once it's painted, weathered and in service, who will know (or care) what it's made of?
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with kitbashes of no known prototype)
I have never owned a brass locomotive and have never seen one in person so please forgive my ignorance. Are these things made of stamped sheet brass or are they castings?
My only brass locomotive is an Sn2 brass Forney locomotive. As far as I know, brass Forneys are the only Sn2 locomotives available. My hobby time is limited so I don't do much scratchbuilding/kitbashing, I buy what I can and focus on building the layout. That will change when I retire and I have been accumulating kits and parts including the MDC HOn3 kits, 2-8-0 and Shay, which I will eventually build and modify for Sn2.
Enjoy
Paul
baberuth73 wrote: I have never owned a brass locomotive and have never seen one in person so please forgive my ignorance. Are these things made of stamped sheet brass or are they castings?
Basically formed sheet brass, with some coined (die-stamped in shallow cavities, like nickels) parts. Detail parts are separate castings, and the whole works is soldered together into assemblies about like the parts of molded plastic locos. Final assembly involves microscopic screws in hard-to-get-at places.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with brass steam and catenary motors)
jecorbett wrote: I know there are many modelers who run their brass but my uneducated guess is that most brass owners are collectors rather than runners.
JE:
That might have been true some years back when brass was REALLY collectable, but I'd be surprised these days if the same theory holds. It's absolutely astonishing the amount of used brass that's available these days from hobby shops such as Peach Creek, Caboose Hobbies or Brasstrains--with the devaluation of the dollar, I think many collections are being sold off. I know that at my two LHS' here in the Sacramento area, the brass consignment cases are usually pretty full. That's how I've picked up my rather large (60+) collection of RUNNING brass locos. I really think that the modeler who is, for one reason or another attracted to brass is actually running them instead of keeping them in their boxes or plastic display cases. In my own case, just about all of the brass that I've bought from various dealers has been run in and used.