Does anyone make one? Or has anyone out there kitbashed one? I was thinking about bashing a Spectrum 2-8-0 and seeing how close I can get.
Mantua offered one about 20 years ago. It was really their "Petticoat Junction" Sierra Ry 4-6-0 with an extra set of drivers. (That 4-6-0 has a large gap between the middle and rear drivers so it wasn't hard for them to make the alteration.)
I have one, I used the Mantua retro-kit to add a Sagami can motor, repainted it and attached an MDC "old timer" tender. Runs very well but light and not much pulling power. Haven't converted it to DCC yet, so haven't run it for a few years.
Afraid that other than the above mentioned 4-8-0 12 wheelers were only produced in brass
A kitbashing we'll go !
Cool guys, thanks for the help.
I needed a reason to start 'bashing.
tatans wrote:Yoiks ! ! What a great looking locomotive, seems we never see enough of these really old locomotives, is there a great market for this type and era?? does (did) anyone make these either in brass or plastic??
Westside made brass models of SP prototypes, and Sunset and PSC made models of the Northfolk & Western version. I recall seeing a model of each offered for sale on ebay earlier this year.
"Twelve-wheeler" was the more common name for the 4-8-0 in the U.S. The Central Pacific (Southern Pacific) built the first 4-8-0 in its Sacramento shops in 1882 where it was given the nickname "Mastodon." Nevertheless, this was overshadowed when CP Sacramento shops produced a 4-10-0, the El Gobernador in 1883 which captured the "Mastodon" nickname.
El G. wasn't successful, probably because of the great disparity between its enormous cylinder volume and small grate area, and was dismantled after 10 years. On the other hand, some of SP's twelve-wheelers were quite successful in that they lasted into the early 1950s for use on lightly-built branch lines due to their low axle-loading, despite being considered large, mainline locomotives when built. N&W's twelve-wheelers also lasted into the 1950s. They were larger and heavier than SP's.
Twelve-wheelers were not common, probably because the simpler 2-8-0 could do as much or more than a 4-8-0. Twelve-wheelers weren't built for speed, so the extra stability provided by a 4-wheel leading truck would normally be unnecessary.
Mark
PASMITH wrote:Here is my model of an SP TW-2 Mastodon no. 2947 kit bashed from a Tyco 4-8-0. The Whale-back tender was scratch built.Peter Smith, Memphis
Aaaahhh, whalebacks! My favorite type of tender. That's a nice looking model .
Peter, did you model the 1892-as-built compound version, or the 1911-modified simpled version?
Whaleback tender? Some SP personal called it a "haystack tender" Enough with simantics, one SP example is stuffed and mounted in Bakersfield Ca. Interesting about the Manatua conversions. New Zealand rail makes a similar wheelbased 4-6-0 in S narrow guage, no conversion kit, but does give one food for thought as to the fiesibility of a standard guage conversion...
Dave
PASMITH wrote:Mark, thank you. You ask a very good question and I do not have a good answer. I probably have almost every photo of the SP TW class locos ever published. I have modeled TW-2 No. 2947 for which I have photos as it appeared in 1895, 1913, 1920 and 1945. The 1895 photo indicates to me that it was a compound. The 1913 photo indicates that it had been converted by that time to simple. Looking at other photos of this class and other SP class locos, it appears to me that SP modifications in general were not all made at a certain date. For example, the injector piping on 2947 in the 1913 photo shows it traveled directly into the cab where as SP modifications made this piping external to the cab on many of their locos at a date earlier than 1913.For my own reasons, I would prefer to model the year 1909. Without further photos, I have made my 1909 version of this model simple not compound. However, I like to consider myself as an impressionist not, a realist ( Rivet Counter) and I can live within the period 1909 to 1911. If it can be verified that this class was converted to simple after 1909 ( 1911) I would consider this to be very valuable information.Peter Smith, Memphis
The TW-2s like your #2947 were simpled between 1908 and 1919. The ones simpled earliest were 2946 and 2953 in 1908 and 2949 in 1909. So, three of #2947's sisters had been simpled before 1910. All of the dates here are from Diebert and Strapac's Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive Compendium (out of print).
Ah yes, a 4-8-0… like an old dump truck with a rear spoiler!
For those who may feel the 4-8-0 arrangement is not unique enough… there was a camelback version – the CNJ Class K-1, which was available in brass from Daiyoung.
Jim
I have thought about making a N&W 4-8-0 M2 class version, none exist in HO that I know, er maybe Sunset did make it?
I think the MDC-Roundhouse larger 2-8-0 is about the good size of the 4-8-0, its drivers are too large, it would take an all new frame, and wheelsets then a 4 wheel pilot and whatever needed modding, and it sounds like a champ to me.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
I had to have a Mastodon for my free-lance ore hauling RR since the real Duluth & Iron Range (prior to merging with the Duluth Missabe and Northern) used some 4-8-0's in iron ore service.
D&IR No.74
Dear Peter,
I am producing a train game for iPad/iPhone/Mac/PC. One of the main components is a historic campaign where you will build the First Transcontinental Railroad between Omaha and Sacramento in the 1860's. It is not as serious as most other train simulators (Trainz, Railworks, etc). I would rather compare it to Sid Meier's Railroads! - but with all the economics removed, much larger worlds, some strategic elements added and a bit more focus on building tracks and running trains. You can spend countless hours building a railroad empire/network stretching across the entire US, or you can play in short bursts in 5-10 minutes and still get to do some exploration, make a few strategic decisions, build a few miles of tracks and watch the trains runs on your new line :)
I already have about a dozen locomotives included from that area (1850-1900) but hoping to include at least another dozen. While searching for reference images for the 4-8-0, I came across your wonderful model (although I was under the impression that only the 4-10-0 would be called "Masterdon").
I am wondering if you could please help me with some more reference images of your 4-8-0?
Regards,
Sven Myhre, Norway
For reference, I have included the 4-4-0 American (Central Pacific "Governor Stanford") as it looks on the iPad version :)
Dear Sven, Since my wife passed away last December 20th I have not touched my model RR or done any reseach. When I got home from visiting my son in Chicago for thanksgiving this year I found that lightening had struck my house and I just now got my e-mail up and found your message. I am leaving for San Diego to visit my daughter on December 22. I will try to give you further references but most of my references are from hard to find magizines in the US.
Best regards, Peter Smith, Memphis
I have done a lot of research and I can only come up with brass versions . I model N & W in the fifties and would love to have a fleet of affordable M class 4-8-0`s . The only M class one I have been able to find was made by sunset and they are difficult to find and expensive . I would like to have more , but I can`t afford them . Would love for someone to produce a quality plastic version either powered or dummy . RON
I am truly sorry to hear about your losses, yet it is good to hear that you have some family around you to support you through difficult times like these.
I was just amazed by the 4-8-0 model of yours - I think it was a true beauty! And the tender you had built from scratch was the definitely the best part! I would definitely appreciate it should you come across any reference images in the coming months - otherwise I will do the best I can myself - though I can assure you that hard-to-find-magazines are even more rare to come across in Norway :)
Best regards,
Sven Myhre
Great Northern also had 4-8-0's--about a hundred of them--their class G's. They were made by Brooks and also by Rogers (the class G-3's). Mostly they had Belpaire fireboxes. PFM imported models of the G-1 and the G-3.
Ed
The Great Northern 4-8-0s were imported by PFM
The G1 below in 1960
the G3 in 1978
The Espee treasured its 4-8-0 locomotives for their light axle loading (one axle more than a 2-8-0).
Sven,
Don't know how much it helps, but you can find images of some of Southern Pacific's 4-8-0's here: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/sp19.htm
Some of SP's 4-8-0's lasted over 60 years in continuous service.
Here's a pic of a TW-1 in the 30's: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1797724
All of SP's 4-8-0's were built in the 19th Century. The first was built in 1882 and the last in 1898.
Hope this helps.
Andree
Dear Andree,
Your references were splendid!
Especially the #2933, #2935, #2940 and #2949 - these are some truly beautiful locomotives :)
Any idea how to find about the original paint schemes of these babies?
ChezDoodles Dear Andree, Your references were splendid! Especially the #2933, #2935, #2940 and #2949 - these are some truly beautiful locomotives :) Any idea how to find about the original paint schemes of these babies? Regards, Sven Myhre
Sven, here is some more information on thw SP TW class 4-8-0's:
Strait Boilers- Class TW-1- (14) enginines-2900-2913
Slope Back Boilers -Class TW-2- (8) engines- 2946--2953 formily 1999-2006 & 2846-2853 ( Mine is 2947)
Class TW-3-(14) engines-2932- 2945 formily 19861998 & 2832-44
Class TW-4-(6)-2927-2931
Class TW-5- (None)
Class TW-6- (5)- 2954-2958
Class TW-7-(1)-CP 229 and then SP 2800
Class TW-8-(10)-2914-2923 ( All strait boilers)
The the best book I woud recomend which you may be able to still get is " A Century of Southern Pacific Steam locomotives by Guy L. Dunscomb. It has pictures of all TW classes from page 205-226 published by Guy L. Dunscomb and Son 2502 Femont Ave. Modesto CA. 95350 Library of Congress card no 63-14308
Other Books are: "Southern Pacific TW Class Pictorial" by Duane L. Karam, Jr & Jeff Ainsworth. Photo Album Series Volume 11 1999 published by Monte Vista publishing, PO Box 886 Rialto, CA. 92377
Also, Locomotive Quarterly Spring of 1998 Volume XXI Number 3 Part 1 and Summer of 1998 Volume XXI number 4 part 2
Published by Metaphor, PO Box383, Mount Vernon NY 10552
Best Regards, Peter
Sorry, I can't help you with color schemes for the earlier 4-8-0's. However, the later ones (1890's) would have essentially been black.
Here's a drawing of Central Pacific #229 as built in the Sacramento Shops in 1882:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/-229_Mastodon.jpg
The engine eventually became Southern Pacific #2925, the sole engine of class TW-7 and lasted until 1935.
Andre
If old brass is what's out there, it sHould be pretty reasonable....
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
While watching Ebay I saw a Brass Southern Pacific 4-8-0 sell for $449 plus shipping.
@Peter
@Andre
Thanks for excellent tips and references :)
I have secured source material and will make sure the 4-8-0 makes it into the train simulator :)
Sven