Bergie has posted what I feel is an important message in the Weekend Photo Fun. It addresses much of what I have felt compelled to say several times since early February. My message, and his I fear, will fall on ears not tuned to their meaning. So, I will try another approach.
Maybe some of you can appreciate the sentiment expressed in the poem that follows:
Count That Day Lost By George Eliot(Mary Ann Evans 1819-1880)
If you sit down at set of sunAnd count the acts that you have done,And, counting, findOne self-denying deed, one wordThat eased the heart of him who heard,One glance most kindThat fell like sunshine where it went-Then you may count that day well spent.
But if, through all the livelong day,You've cheered no heart, by yea or nay-If, through it allYou've nothing done that you can traceThat brought the sunshine to one face-No act most smallThat helped some soul and nothing cost-Then count that day as worse than lost.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I know I don't speak for everyone, but I would guess a large part of why most of us are here is because we want to share out hobby with others. Where once we had at most the local club and LHS for social outlets (and at worst, just a magazine or two you can't really interact with much), forums such as these allow us tremendous opportunities to learn from one another and share our love of the hobby.
Some seek sites like these to learn. Others seek validation. Regardless of why we're here, we're here. And we should enjoy our time here.
Many may remember my ramblings about my role in these forums following a number of negative posts on my part. Since that time I've become more aware of the tone of the forum overall. It's not my place to dictate tone, but I can influence it by remaining positive.
Positive doesn't mean handing out accolades on every occasion. Positive does mean a welcoming atmosphere. Those seeking comments on their work should expect and deserve honesty, but even honesty can be served without venom. Learning by humiliation may work in Basic Training, but it rarely works in a hobby environment, nor should it. When someone's post, picture, or work does not appeal to me, I drive on. When feedback is honestly sought, it is given, but I try to use a "positive-negative-positive" sandwich when the feedback is not stellar. In a perfect world, brutal honesty would be served and received without emotion. But this place ain't perfect (and neither are we!).
On the one hand, I suspect thicker skins would do some members some good. OTOH, I suspect a good dose of the Golden Rule would do others some good. I am by no means perfect myself, and the best I can do is critique my own actions to do better next time, and to learn from both the positive and negative experiences of others.
Like my trains, I am a "work in progress."
Your milage may vary. Now go play with trains!
P.S. Brutal honesty does have a place... PMs.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
If one is asked a question, give an answer if you can - or remain silent if you can't.
If one is asked for an opinion, give a positive answer - even if the opinion is negative.
If one is being asked to stroke an ego, do so if you can. If, in good conscience, you can't, simply turn away without comment.
If one is obviously seeking to sow dissention, touch the, "Report abuse," button and move on.
If someone is here to build up his ego at the expense of others, he's in the wrong place.
Just my .
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I'm glad to see this thread.
My
The Golden Rule was already mentioned below. It would be good to see everyone adhering to it.
Include common sense and common courtesy.
Respect others at all times.
This is a hobby, and model railroading is fun. It's refreshing to see posts where it's obvious the person posting is having fun.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
My Mom once said" If you wouldn't say it to ME, don't say it."
FWIW
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Sorry Crandel, but I think if Bergie's words fell on un-'tuned' ears, so to will yours (or rather your quote).. Some have been foruming long enough to realize that regardless of the community, there are always those who are abrasive. Some are that way just for the sake of being that way, others don't realize it. It seems to me (and yes, this is only opinion) that in both cases when called on it, they become defensive and said thread or discussion decends into the proverbial pi$$ing contest. The best course of action, I've learned, is to let it go and ignore them. As shown, time and time again in the WPF threads and elsewhere, folks just cannot do that. Everytime he who shall not be mentioned shows up, it starts out harmless enough and then degrades because people just cannot let it go (for example).
I cannot and will not disagree with your sentiment however. I will say that being diplomatic (for lack of a better term) online is an aquired skill for most. A skill that some will always choose not to aquire. I've had to learn it, others have, and still more will have to. To tell someone that their modeling, photography, video skills, ect sucks admittedly isn't the best way to go about it. An, "If you would like to improve (insert skill here), you might try this instead of doing (insert problem here)".. If they choose not to, Fine. Offer the advice once, leave it at that. A much better approach IMO.
I enjoy my time here for the most part, learn a few things, and even have a laugh or two. In return, I try to offer experience based knowlage. If folks want to take advantage of that, great. If not, fine. Not much to do with your original post except this.. I've had to learn to play respectfully in Kalmbach's yard (as well as others). It had to be something howver that 'I' wanted to learn. Some unfortunately choose not to.
my 3¢
You know I understand that our hobby is inundated with Cermugins.... I have been accused of being one myself. But over the years I have seen a lot of would be or new people get turned off to the hobby due to the words or actions of one or two loudmouths, it's a shame but it happens, diametrically any time a forum tries to practice a bit of consequence based moderation, they are accused of stifling the voice of freedom and the Alt.rr newsgroups are praised for their non-solicitous manner; never mind that the same eight people have been deciding what everyones opinion should be there for the past five years, and most arguments usually end with the new guy getting perma-banned while the inner circle claps each other on the back for putting another "Troll" in his place. Also if you will notice you will never see Koester, Six, Barrows or Furlow participating there.
I think that any forum will benefit from a simple but clear set of consequences over rudeness and Bad behavior, and it should be applied across the board. I understand that few people like the play nice or else forum policy, but (to me at least) it can avoid a lot of hurt feelings on all ends.
Folks have seen me get into heated debates with several forum members, being right or wrong isn't the point, I shouldn't have been bickering period, just like a certain Head-shop owner shouldn't be allowed to wax his philosophy on smokers rights..it has nothing but nothing to do with Model Railroading. I think if we had an environment where threads that drifted into the off topic were quickly locked, and those that participated or started bickering post were deleted and the poster warned we would have a lot less hair pulling. Do we need to be more respectful of each other? Absolutely Are we going to unless there is some type of consequence? Not Bloody likely.
highhood63 wrote: [EDIT] Also if you will notice you will never see Koester, Six, Barrows or Furlow participating there.I think that any forum will benefit from a simple but clear set of consequences over rudeness and Bad behavior, and it should be applied across the board. I understand that few people like the play nice or else forum policy, but (to me at least) it can avoid a lot of hurt feelings on all ends. [EDIT]
[EDIT] Also if you will notice you will never see Koester, Six, Barrows or Furlow participating there.
[EDIT]
Like I said in the Weekend Photo Fun I new to this Photo fun thing. I see its now locked for som reason, but I'm still confused, and some of the comments on this thread have me more confused.
Whose to determine what is "rude" or "bad" behavior? Does rude or bad behavior include giving an honest opinion? Would it include lying and telling someone their stuff looks great when it doesn't? How will I learn and improve if people are reluctant to tell me I'm doing stuff wrong if they fear being banned?
I read through the forum policies again just to make sure and to try and understand them. Here's what I thought was important.
- No swearing or foul language. And we don't care if you use symbols to mask the words. The meaning is still conveyed and we don't want it in our forum. Please keep in mind that we have readers of all ages. This isn't a tavern.
- No personal attacks or name-calling. Please keep conversations cordial. We understand that there will be differences of opinion. Please don't let those differences turn ugly. Accept that others might not have your same point of view, don't sink to personal attacks. Nothing is gained by doing so.
- No advertising. Our forums should not be used as an advertising medium for companies who want to promote their business or products, or by individual who want to promote their items for sale or their eBay auctions.
The reply in the Photo Fun thread does not run foul of any of these rules - there was no foul language, there was no personal attack or name calling. Just an honest opnion. People have a difference in opinion about how it was stated, which as stated above is not against the forum policy. If someone is going to sit as a judge and figure out what is rude behavior, like being one of my teachers, then I don't know if this is the place to join. I'd appreciate it if someone pointed out to me what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. After re-reading jktrains post, he did suggest ways of improving the video.
Ocyt3006 wrote:The reply in the Photo Fun thread does not run foul of any of these rules - there was no foul language, there was no personal attack or name calling. Just an honest opnion. People have a difference in opinion about how it was stated, which as stated above is not against the forum policy. If someone is going to sit as a judge and figure out what is rude behavior, like being one of my teachers, then I don't know if this is the place to join. I'd appreciate it if someone pointed out to me what I was doing wrong and how to correct it. After re-reading jktrains post, he did suggest ways of improving the video.
You aren't JK are you?? Just checking as I think he wouldn't bother registering a new ID to defend himself.. He did suggest ways of improving, yes. It was the method of delivery that some found offensive. This is the second WPF thread to get locked in the past couple months, for the same reason and with the same players. They get locked not so much for abuse of the rules but because the thread begins to spiral downhill in a hurry. To keep it from getting to the point of name calling (or when it does), the moderators lock the thread in question to let cooler heads prevail.
Some of the rules are more loosely followed than others. Some, like me, will use symbols or the smiley to express dissatisfaction though technically, it violates the rules of the forum. Outright language violations (you know the words) are not tolerated at all. The moderators may choose to remove the offensive language, delete the post, or even the thread all together. Advertising, even overtly, is not tolerated at all. We are all guests here in the house of Kalmbach, their rules, they decide how and when to enforce them.
From what I've seen, you've only asked questions and stated a puzzled confusion about the goings on. There are a lot of great people here and a few not so great. Overall, it's a clean place to hang your RR cap, kick back, and shoot the bull about trains. If that's what you seek, you're in the right place. Welcome. If not, Have a nice day anyway..
I agree with you Ocyt3006. I am so blundered too. Maybe they need to add to the rules:
Honest Opinions - are not allowed unless in the positive manner. If you feel it looks not so good well you are not allowed to give an honest opinion
If everyone feels one way and you feel different - you are Wrong no matter what and then it is ok for the rest to tell you so and they can do so in a rude manner in return because they are with the majority.
Those are two things that I notice seem to be a "rule" not the exception in past topics. the fact that you cannot be honest and express your opinions is what I think discourages people from this forum and honbby not the other way around.
who is to judge what is rude? What is mean? the fear of being banned is real in these cases.
Ocyt3006,
I think it is really easy to determine. If you wouldn't talk that way to your Wife/Mom or whoever you respect, don't do it here. If you don't respect anyone or would speak that way to someone you claim to respect you might want to take a break do some soul searching and come back when you understand that you don't speak that way to people.
Keep in mind....I'm guilty here too.
As for who decides; two people, the person you offended and the Moderators. The Moderator having the last word.
Also no you shouldn't lie, but outright saying something sucks is designed to do one thing, hurt someone else..it's wrong, it shouldn't be without consequence.
If anyone feels that being tactful equals dishonesty or weakness..they have bigger problems than interacting with fellow Train buffs.
highhood63 wrote: Ocyt3006,I think it is really easy to determine. If your wouldn't talk that way to your Wife/Mom or whoever you respect, don't do it here. If you don't respect anyone or would speak that way to someone you claim to respect you might want to take a break do some soul searching and come back when you understand that you don't speak that way to people. Keep in mind....I'm guilty here too.As for who decides; two people, the person you offended and the Moderators. The Moderator having the last word. Also no you shouldn't lie, but outright saying something sucks is designed to do one thing, hurt someone else..it's wrong, it shouldn't be without conciseness. If anyone feels that being tactful equals dishonesty or weakness..they have bigger problems than interacting with fellow Train buffs.
I think it is really easy to determine. If your wouldn't talk that way to your Wife/Mom or whoever you respect, don't do it here. If you don't respect anyone or would speak that way to someone you claim to respect you might want to take a break do some soul searching and come back when you understand that you don't speak that way to people.
Also no you shouldn't lie, but outright saying something sucks is designed to do one thing, hurt someone else..it's wrong, it shouldn't be without conciseness. If anyone feels that being tactful equals dishonesty or weakness..they have bigger problems than interacting with fellow Train buffs.
Well that confuses the question more because I do not know about you but in my family we are not accustomed to lie or water down the truth to each other. In fact I think that people get the more critical advice or opinions from family than someone you do not know. For example Your mom is driving you to whereever. She drives slow and you feel she does not have the good multitasking skills of driving. You would probably tell her. "Ma you drive so slow. You drive like a old lady" Now if you were in the car with the cab driver on the other hand you wouldnt say anything at all.
Trainmanny wrote: Well that confuses the question more because I do not know about you but in my family we are not accustomed to lie or water down the truth to each other. In fact I think that people get the more critical advice or opinions from family than someone you do not know. For example Your mom is driving you to whereever. She drives slow and you feel she does not have the good multitasking skills of driving. You would probably tell her. "Ma you drive so slow. You drive like a old lady" Now if you were in the car with the cab driver on the other hand you wouldnt say anything at all.
/sigh Guy you're basically using circular logic to make your point. Saying "Ma you drive too slow" isn't the same thing as saying "That sucks, your modeling is lame and whats more people have been telling you stuff for months and you don't listen!!!"
I understand however that you want to "win" here, so I'm just going to end it, It's a simple philosophy, if you need to turn it into a complicated morality exercise you're here for the wrong reason.
If the rules confuse, behave as you think best. When/if you receive a warning to desist, try to modify your behaviour. If you cannot/will not alter your behaviour, you will be shown the door. It's the same in any organization, including households.
This is Kalmbach's house. Their rules.
Just do a search under Weekend Photo Fun and read the ones I mentioned earlier. If you are still confused I am sorry, but I won't be explaining. I have other things to do. Do as you think best, and try to be true to the way you were raised. If it was a respectable upbringing, you are hardly going to go wrong that way.
highhood63 wrote: Trainmanny wrote: Well that confuses the question more because I do not know about you but in my family we are not accustomed to lie or water down the truth to each other. In fact I think that people get the more critical advice or opinions from family than someone you do not know. For example Your mom is driving you to whereever. She drives slow and you feel she does not have the good multitasking skills of driving. You would probably tell her. "Ma you drive so slow. You drive like a old lady" Now if you were in the car with the cab driver on the other hand you wouldnt say anything at all. /sigh Guy you're basically using circular logic to make your point. Saying "Ma you drive to slow" isn't the same thing as saying "That sucks, your modeling is lame and whats more people have been telling you stuff for months and you don't listen!!!" I understand however that you want to "win" here, so I'm just going to end it, It's a simple philosophy, if you need to turn it into a complicated morality exercise you're here for the wrong reason.
/sigh Guy you're basically using circular logic to make your point. Saying "Ma you drive to slow" isn't the same thing as saying "That sucks, your modeling is lame and whats more people have been telling you stuff for months and you don't listen!!!"
Well If I have observed people telling someone how to do something over and over again the correct way and then he later asked for opinions after all that well I would tell him what I think about his work and mention the fact that he has not listen to anyone advice previously so it should be getting better not the same. That is not rude or mean but honest and frankly the guy is proving to be a hardheaded pain in the butt. but since you seem to think it is about winning well i will give it to you. Your right I am wrong but I think you are being rude to me about it.
Trainmanny wrote: Well If I have observed people telling someone how to do something over and over again the correct way
Well If I have observed people telling someone how to do something over and over again the correct way
Correct by whose standards? Is there some Railroad model police out there I'm not aware of. I keep hearing who are they to judge....who are you to say what's correct? It's not about being historically accurate for everyone guy.
Trainmanny wrote:and then he later asked for opinions after all that well I would tell him what I think about his work and mention the fact that he has not listen to anyone advice previously so it should be getting better not the same.
So you think he was just asking for your opinion and no one else's huh?..interesting, Do you often feel that it all revolves around just what you think?
Trainmanny wrote:That is not rude or mean but honest and frankly the guy is proving to be a hardheaded pain in the butt.
Just gotta name call...see that's my point right there , not necessary. I just don't think you're getting it.
Also I'm left wondering if this is just another JK alt looking for attention.
I could really use a little more cow bell...!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ
Dave Vollmer wrote: I could really use a little more cow bell...!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4royOLtvmQ
ROTFL.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
highhood63 wrote: Trainmanny wrote: Well If I have observed people telling someone how to do something over and over again the correct way Correct by whose standards? Is there some Railroad model police out there I'm not aware of. I keep hearing who are they to judge....who are you to say what's correct? It's not about being historically accurate for everyone guy. Trainmanny wrote:and then he later asked for opinions after all that well I would tell him what I think about his work and mention the fact that he has not listen to anyone advice previously so it should be getting better not the same. So you think he was just asking for your opinion and no one else's huh?..interesting, Do you often feel that it all revolves around just what you think? Trainmanny wrote:That is not rude or mean but honest and frankly the guy is proving to be a hardheaded pain in the butt. Just gotta name call...see that's my point right there , not necessary. I just don't think you're getting it.Also I'm left wondering if this is just another JK alt looking for attention.
trust me I am not the guy JK. I am a real person. I was not name calling, I was stating my opinion tha ther person is a hardheaded pain in the butt but it was not pointed at anyone in particular. I was using it as an example. Im not trying to be difficult but I think it is a little bit ridiculous and confusing as well
Time to fold this one up, fellas.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.