Hello everyone. I have decided to have a real go at building a N scale B&O EL-1 from a P2K 2-8-8-2. Drivers are the same, valve gear is good enough for me, the cab can be kitbashed...and the boiler is completely different. Anyone here ever build a boiler from scratch? Im torn between the only 2 really viable methods i can think of.
1) construct it from brass. Yeah. Not my idea of a good time, but if i gotta, i gotta...question is, is this probably the "best" method? I want the thing to have enough weight to be able to pull like a real 2-8-8-0 (in n scale of course) but forming individual boiler sections from brass and then soldering them dosent sound at all easy. Advantage is that it would add weight and would leave the interior nicely open for decoder, wiring, and perhaps even sound. Disadvantages....pain in the booty to do, not rapidly repeatable (i wish to build several of these) and subject to the soldering ability of the creator (ie, me, and im not a wizard at soldering).
2) Construct a master, form a mold, cast in resin. In theory, once a suitable master has been made (from brass or whatever) it should be relatively simple to cast these with resin, right? Advantages (if this works) are ease of repeatability, cost, and time. Disadvantages, fragility of the part, must hollow the inside out (or devise a spacer in the mold) to hold things like motors and decoders. Also lighter than brass (i would think)
Are there any other options? Has anyone here ever made a boiler from scratch, and if so, what method did you use? Can anyone perhaps point me in the direction of a thread or site that shows how to construct something like this with brass? (i assume there is a learning curve to working with brass, and i would like to keep it as shallow as possible)
Thanks, Tim
Tim--
What are the major structural and dimension differences between the boilers of the EL-1 and the N&W YB? Is it in the boiler contour itself or the location of the sand and steam domes? Reason I ask is that I'm not that familiar with either loco--though I've seen photos of the EL-1, and I remember that back in the '70's or '80's, Rivarossi used to put out an HO-scale B&O EL-1 by using the boiler of a YB-6 and just dropping the trailing truck and adding a Vandy tender. Of course, I know that ISN'T prototypical, obviously, but just how MUCH modification would you need to do to the YB boiler? Are the sand and steam domes removable without cutting into the boiler? And does the boiler itself seem even remotely adaptable to the B&O version without a complete replacement?
As I remember, and I could be wrong, the Proto YB is one of the earlier models--YB-3, I think, and was either used as, or adapted from the USRA design from WWI. Are the B&O locos from this period? If so, they may be, like the YB, an adapted USRA design, and very close in dimension. Which means that you might be safe in simply adapting the Proto boiler to the B&O design with a new boiler face, re-working the sand and steam domes and whatever piping is necessary.
I would suggest --if you haven't already--getting builder specs on both locos and working it from there. I think Baldwin built the EL-1, and I know they built quite a few of the original YB-3's, before N&W begain building their own. I could be wrong, but you just might not need to re-construct the entire B&O boiler.
You'll certainly need a Vandy tender, though. Hopefully, they're available in N scale. Keep us informed on what you come up with, okay? I've always thought those EL-1's were a distinct and handsome articulated.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I do have plans for the EL-3 class, which dosent differ much at all from the EL-1. While i do not have plans for the Y-3 class, i have numerous books on N&W, as well as the "Steam Glory" special that classic trains put out about 2 years ago, which has many specs on the Y-series family of 2-8-8-2s. Immediately noticeable differences are:
1) Boiler diameter. The Y is basically the USRA design. I find specs, on a USRA locomotive site, that the USRA design had a boiler that ranged from 97-105 inches in diameter. The EL-3 boiler was 90 to 100 inches in diameter. Not a big deal.
2) The air pumps on the EL are carried on the fireman's side of the locomotive, on the USRA they are on the front of the smokebox. In itself, not a big deal....
3) The overall length of the EL 3 (loco itself) is 62' 7 3/8", with tender its 97' 1 7/8". I dont know how long the USRA design is, but its sure a good deal longer than this. This is a problem.
4) The EL had an 86 sq foot grate area, the USRA 96 feet. Also the firebox on the EL seems to be much farther aft, even partially inside the cab (the EL class failing was that its firebox had to clear the drivers, and with no trailing truck, its size was limited). Thats why its T.E. was "only" 118,800 pounds....this is a big problem.
5) The EL boiler has a distinctive "taper" between the steam dome and the forward sand dome, the USRA boiler appears much straighter. This, coupled with #4, means i cant even use "half" of the boiler.
6) Numerous small cosmetic details abound, and though i dont have exact measurements for the length of the USRA loco itself, it appears a good deal longer than the EL, perhaps as much as 10 feet (the EL, at 97', is smaller overall than some 4-8-4s) and find references that "it would fit on a 115 foot turntable", whereas the EL classes were specifically designed to fit on a 100 foot turntable. Not to mention, the EL is almost 80000 pounds lighter than the USRA/Y-3 design.
Looks like i have no choice. A happy discovery, however, was that the pilot deck itself, as well as the cylinders, are remarkably similar. (so is the cab...happy day!) The EL has 24x32 cylinders (after conversion to simple, previously i believe the LP cylinders were 38x32) the Y class has 25x32 and 39x32 cylinders. A one inch difference takes a violent shove into the realm of who cares, its N scale, this is a difference of about .007 inch. The USRA has 57 inch drivers, the EL has 58...again, who cares. Im not worried about the differences in boiler diameter, but the other differences are extreme.
So sadly, i have to make a boiler. The firebox and dimensional differences are just too large to be able to use the USRA/Y3 one on this loco.
The boiler from the USRA loco will not go to waste, as it looks to be a dandy match for the EM-1 boiler with some modification. The tender, likewise, should be workable for an LL. Wow B&O had a lot of articulateds!
The big tender for the EM-1 will probably be the hardest part of that build....but one step at a time.
Con-Cor makes (or made) vandy tenders in N, and i plan to get a bunch of 'em.
So im back to the drawing board.
Tim
I haven't scratchbuilt a boiler or chassis - yet...the day is approaching, because like you the models I want are unavailable. Besides, it's time to learn new skills (and make new mistakes ).
All the articles I have read on scratchbuilding steam engines built the boiler out of brass or wood. I don't think wood is practical in N. I think the time to build the masters and patterns for casting would be a waste unless you are looking to build more than one. And resin is very light.
The boiler is usually laid out on flat brass stock and then rolled around a form of suitable diameter. The toughest part of boiler construction appears to be the tapered course(s) and the domes. The tapered course needs to be laid out as a conic section. Maintaining a consistent top or bottom line so that accessories are mounted in the proper place (clock position) is another task.
If you prefer not to solder, epoxy would be my second choice.
Most of this is covered much better in one of the Model Railroader series on scratchbuilding steam locomotives. One series is in the recent Kalmbach book titled something like Steam Locomotive Projects. Another (or perhaps the same) series of articles is available as a pay-for .pdf download. In the past, Model Railroader has run a series on scratchbuilding a steam loco about once a decade (in the '50s it was more often). The last series was in 1994, IIRC.
Hope this helps. If it doesn't, feel free to ignore.
Fred W
Caveat - I model in twice-N (1:80 scale.)
Have you considered starting with a chunk of PVC or ABS pipe? That, a turning device and a couple of files will be my material and method of choice when I start building the scratchbuilt superstructures for the three JNR 9600 class 2-8-0s I intend to put on Bachmann mechanisms.
If you would prefer metal, and are willing to take longer, thickwall tubing or even iron pipe is available. No question that an iron boiler would be heavy - and a coat of brush-on insulation would make the interior electrically friendly.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
ndbprr wrote:Way back and I mean way back in MR a person showed how to lay out a complex boiler so the pieces could be cut out for fabrication. It wasn't an article per se and was toward the back of one of the issues in the late 60's or early 70's.
You're probably thinking of Jim Boyd's "Lagged Boilers Are Easier" from September, 1967 issue of MR. http://index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=MR&MO=9&YR=1967
Andre
tomikawaTT wrote: Caveat - I model in twice-N (1:80 scale.)Have you considered starting with a chunk of PVC or ABS pipe? That, a turning device and a couple of files will be my material and method of choice when I start building the scratchbuilt superstructures for the three JNR 9600 class 2-8-0s I intend to put on Bachmann mechanisms.If you would prefer metal, and are willing to take longer, thickwall tubing or even iron pipe is available. No question that an iron boiler would be heavy - and a coat of brush-on insulation would make the interior electrically friendly.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Iron pipe? Chuck, he's modeling in N. Thin wall brass tubing of the type you can find in a reasonably well stocked hobby shop should work.
I have a similar problem. I bought two of the IHS HO 2-10-1 Sante Fes to kit bash into New Haven's L-1 2-10-2s.
I plan to construct the boilers from 0.10 styrene sheet with 0.40 formers. Using the Micro Mark Riveter any rivets can be impressed inton it before hand. Many drawings of steam locomotives have cross section drawings showing the boiler diameter at various intervals. I plan to reduce the known boiler dimensios to HO scale and cut circular formers.
There are basically two sections, a straight section at the rear and a tapered section at the front. I will cut rectangular notches in the circular pieces to provide clearance for the mechanism. I will lay out the wrapper using the known dimensions times Pi, and leave about 1/2 inch short for the bottom opening. example: 96 x 3.1416 = 301.5936 / 87.1 = 3,4626 - 0.5 = 2.9626. Three inches is close enough.
I will first heat and form the boiler around a dowel with a heat gun. Then I will insert the formers and clamp the assembly together with a bunch of rubber bands. I will then cement them in place with super glue. Th formers and inside of the wrapper will have center lines scribed so everything stays in alignment.
This sounds complicated, but taken step-by-step, is fairly simple. The front section should be made to slip fit into the front of the rear section and taper to the front smoke box. One final note, you ma have to fudge the diameter of the smoke box if you going to use a commercial smokebox front
Luckily I have a brass L-1 so I plan to make rubber molds of the special domes and cast them from resin.
Thanks for the replies! I hadnt considered using styrene, nor epoxy to glue the brass sections of boiler together. I do plan to build more than one of these, but just due to the light weight and fragility of resin, i dont think ill go that route. Im leaning towards brass, but the idea of a styrene boiler (and being able to emboss rivets, etc with a rivet tool, not to mention being more glue-friendly) appeals to me. I am probably going to try both, and decide from that which way i intend to progress. Im not looking forward to the tapered section of the boiler....but i have a thought on that. I plan to be very picture intensive while i construct the boiler, i will be sure and post some pics and a general overview of what it looks like when i am done (no matter how it turns out...we learn more from mistakes than successes!)
Thanks again for all the replies, if you have anything else to add, please do so!
edit-i plan to make some resin copies of the smokebox fronts (i have no idea what this region is called, i apologze) and can make them larger rather easily, then sand them to fit the corresponding boiler. The sand and steam domes, once again, resin castings. I think many "detail" parts, like air pumps, lights, FWH, air tanks, handrail stanchions etc are commercially available?
I made a boiler using epoxy lamination. Here's the technique I used:
I constructed a boiler this way back in the early 1970's for an HO ten-wheeler to fit over a Mantua "Little Six" (0-6-0T) frame (turned back-to-front) and fitted with larger drivers. It looks the same today as when I built it.
Jim
I don't normally check this forum but a friend of mine refrenced your post to me in hopes that I might help. I am normally on Trainboard or Atlas' N scale forums.
Here is how I did it on a B&O S-1:
There is a full build article available in the NTrak Steam Handbook and also can be seen at BORHS.org under the B&O Modeler magazine.
I am currently working on a P7d and an EM-1 among other things. I have construction drawings of an EL-3 to eventually convert a Y-3 but it is a little farther down the list.
Here is a shot of the P7d in process:
The crosshead slide is scratch built and so will the eccentric gear when I get around to it.
Plastic is easier to work with, brass just seems to traslate the look and feel of heavy metal objects better. Plastic seems to end up with softer edges. Learn to use casting resin because it will save you a lot of headache in the long run dupicating parts. Instead of chasing down the ever dwindling supply of pewter detail parts, I make a cast from existing loco's and make copies for myself when ever needed. Most of the detail parts on the S-1 are castings from a Kato Mikado.
BTW- everything above is N scale. If you want to go a step farther, learn photo etching and you can pull this off:
It's not mine. It is a Z scale Berkshire built by Chris333 from over on Trainboard.
Necroing my own thread. Thanks for the reply skipgear, it was your article in the B&O Modeler that gave me the final nudge to actually try this. The boiler for my first EL is basically complete, now the process of mounting the individual engines is next. Its been a 6 month build so far...hopefully the end result will be worth it.
Took me 4 months to see this response...
PS. Any plans for a P1d?