DCC Systems

[Anonymous]

I am associated with a small model railroad club that is considering upgrading to DCC. I also plan to build my own layout (home) using DCC. What are the best systems for price, quality and operation. A few of our members are leary about DCC and prefer block operation. We are looking for something reasonably affordable with good operational quaility. Most of us have a variety of locomotives, Kato, Atlas, Ahtearn (most of all) and Proto 2000 (2nd most). Is the Atlas DCC system a good one or is their a better one for a comparable price?

Currently, the main club layout utilizes walk around wireless Block control (two cab control A & B, plus seperate blocking and power supply for the main yard. The layout consists of two (approx) 30 ft runs and two 14 foot runs forming an 'oval' (circular/rectangular) shape) with two main lines and several sidngs (currently not effectively blocked for the best operation).

Are the DCC systems truely compatible with each other (ie a digitec locomotive run on the Atlas system, etc). Has the Atlas decoder problem of not fitting well in Athearn (and other diesels) been corrected?

I'm sure their are many articles around on this subject and I would be willing to research and read them, but basic answers to the aforementioned questions would be greatly appreciated.

thankyou

[cmrproducts]

Mike

All of the DCC systems are good. As for price they all have starter systems as well as advanved. It depends on the size of the layout and the number of operators that want to run.

I am in a club and we converted from block control to the old Keller Onboard analog control back in 96. We then change over to Digitrax in 99. We just set all of the block switches to the main and hooked up the system to the old main track wires. The system has all of the old walk-arounds still in place. We just shut them off.

We are using radio control and the members just love not having to find a plug panel. As for price once you have the main system the decoders will be the cost as most of our members began converting all of their engines. When I began looking at systems I checked all of them. I felt that I would wait for about 5 years to see who was the most popular system and then make a decision. Well Digitrax was the largest company at the time with the most features (radio) and I felt that this was the one to go with. I have not been sorry as they just keep coming out with new products faster than I can use on the layout. I have since began my own home layout 75'x25' and am glad I have the radio system. I just can't wait for Digitrax to get the Duplix radio system out.

Bob H Clarion, PA

[cprted]

For your club layout Digitrax is the way to go. It may be more expensive than other systems on the market but in this hobby, you get what you pay for. Digitrax is the most flexible and advanced system out there, perfect for a club running multiple trains with dozens of locomotives. Talk to your local dealer for more specific information on the various packages Digitrax offers.

As for your home layout, an Atlas system would probablly do the trick. The Atlas system is cheaper the Digitrax and very easy to use. I beleive it can have 99 locomotives programmed and run up to 10 trains simultainously. The atlas walkaround throttles are due out this year.

[ronsmith]

Give Easy Dcc sytem a close look. Our club is using it and have great operations. We also use 4 different brands of decoders and use nothing but wireless throttles.
Ron

[Anonymous]

Mike -

Be sure to decide what features you want on your model rr before buying !!!

For example, if you want sound from the loco(Soundtraxx chips), you will need a DCC system capable of accessing those different sound functions. The Atlas system can't access all 8 funtions, but Digitrax "Empire" or "Chief" can.

Good luck - I'm in the hunt, too !

- George

[Anonymous]

Bob,
what do you mean "duplix radio sustem?" I guess this is a new product I havent heard about yet.
thanks
chad

[Anonymous]

Sounds like they are all compatible. Once your loco has a decoder in it, it will run on the other systems too. This is an important issue. Also interested in the MU feature so you can couple different locos together (where one may be slightly faster/slower than the other) and be able to get them to run together smoothly.

Also which one has the smallest decoders to ensure they will fit in the most locomotives. I read one message on this board where a fellow railroader was not able to fit the decoder into one of his diesels. I personally have several SP SD40-T2 and SD45-T2 (customized) Athearn locomotives and some smaller SW1200 and SW150 swithcers. Other club members have Proto200 locomotives (GP9's and SD9's). If we get one system can we anyone's decoders for the locomotives?

The radio walk around deal sounds like the 'ticket', so you can travel with the locomotive without having to plugin to various locations.

thanks

[pgrayless]

Mike,

For the most part decoders will work with any system. My main concern is for the command station and the decoder to be able to use the same number of speed steps (14, 28, etc). Otherwise, the two won't work well together, if at all. This was mainly an issue with older DCC products though. You can sometimes use a decoder made for a smaller scale in a tiny locomotive, but beware of the current draw of the motor & heat buildup, or you're going to be buying a new decoder very soon.

Hope all goes well,

Paul Grayless

[greendiamond]

I am a DCC dealer and carry Digitax, Lenz, Atlas, NCE (North Coast Engineering and Soundtraxx). I guess that makes me biased to these companies. Here's a kicker for you to condsider. Digitrax does offer a National Display Discount for clubs. You club must first qualify by being open to the public, do mall trains shows, be open for model train conventions, etc. You should get the idea. The offer is 30% off list price of any products Digitrax produces. This offer is a one shot deal for the club and all its memebers. You must submit your request and purchase your items through an authorized dealer. If your club is on the fence as to which company to go with, keep this in mind.

Mike Tyl
Green Diamond Hobbies
[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

I currently use a Digitrax Chief system on my home layout. In fact, my biggest issue was switching from HO to N, and starting to use DCC with Unitrack. However, when I did model HO, I had a couple of SW1500s that I couldnt get a Digitrax DH121 to fit into. So I contacted Digitrax and they suggested using either an N scale decoder, or even a Z scale decoder. The Z scale decoders are pretty much the same as the HO ones, just a heck of a lot smaller. My suggestion for compatibility and reliability would be Digitrax, but thats just my opinion. Have fun!
Matt

[Anonymous]

I have been enjoying the discussion on DCC systems. It looks *** Digitrax is the system of choice. I can understand why. I have been operating on a friend's Digitrax layout for three years now with very few problems. We have had as many as 13 operators at a session with smooth trouble free running. The only problems I have encountered are the plug in tethers (the system was installed before wireless throttles were available and hasn't been up graded yet) and short circuiting on turnouts. The layout is about 30 yrs old with many old Atlas and some Shinohara turn outs which are not vey DCC Friendly- Not a fault of the system. The layout is fairly large with a little over 300 ft of single track mainline, two reversing loops, one classification yard and six "towns" with drop off tracks and industrial sidings. There must be over a mile of wiring under the benchwork left over from the old analog system 90% of which is no longer used. I am fortunate in that I have recently rejoined the hobby an I am basically starting from scratch. When I buy a loco I buy a decoder with it. I am currently building a layout Modeling the Buffalo Rochester& Pittsburg Ry between 1910 and 1929. My layout area is 25x36 with two levels. My track plan calls for about 600 ft of main line( About 200 ft double track) three major classification yards, 8 "towns" a coal dock, engine facility (roundhouse)and at least 4 mining and logging branch lines. The thought of wiring all that as an analog layout gives me nightmares. With DCC its a piece of cake. A brief word on decoder installation- obviously all my motive power is steam. I have always been able to find room IN THE ENGINE for a decoder (primarily DH121s and DH141s) I want to leave my tenders available for sound. I have installed decoders in Riverossi, AHM, IHC, Proto2000 and a few repowered brass engines. In some cases I found that a decoder fits qite nicely under the roof of the cab. Paint it flat black and it's almost invisible. Just to prove a point I am currently finishing up a DN121 installation in a Bachman DeWitt Clinton. Not enough room? I don't want to hear it! One last quick thing. The AHM and Riverossi round can motors stall test at .97 amps. Just clip the strap off the ground brush and you are DCC ready. See Ya!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for this info. I was growing really concerned with the issue of fitting these decoders in all of my locomotives. I also have a couple SW-1500's, as well as some small steam locos. This 'Z' scale trick might just be the ticket. But, why didn't they just build all of their decoders this size in the first place?

Mike

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the information. Size and fitting issues were of great concern, but htese last couple of messages have all but eliminated the problem. You talk about 13 operators (drivers/engineers). How many locomotives did each control? Sounds like your layouts are steam related, but even they often had multiple locomotive train heads. Since no two locomotives will run at exactly the same speed at the same voltage (even if they are "identical"), it would be necessary to have independent control over each locomotive so that one doesn't 'push' or 'pull'. This becomes a real issue when modeling modern 3-5 locomotive diesel trains. Can the Digitrax handle that many. Our club would like to have 10+ operators at once with multiple locomitive trains, if possible. On my home layout, 4-6 operators would probably be plenty.

What kind of cost are we looking at (rough estimate for system and per decoder).?

I'm following this forum closely to help me decide which system to buy. It appears that Digitrax is #1 and Atlas around #2. What is the problem caused to DCC systems with Atlas and Shinanora switches? Can they be corrected or 'safe guarded against', without their total removal from the layout?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

Mike

[pgrayless]

Mike,

You can use speed tables or min, max, mid voltage adjustments in the various decoders to match the preformance of the different locomotives. As for how many boosters, that will depend on how many locos per train as well as how many active trains there are within each power district. Digitrax, as well as others, use 5 Amp boosters. Highter amperage boosters are available, but cost goes up. At 5 amps, you should be able to run 3 - 5 locos in one district at the same time. Lighted equipment also counts against the total Amp draw.

As for cost, Digitrax's Empire Builder II runs about $300.00 if I remember correctly. You will still need a power supply for the booster (about 30 - 50 dollars). Additional throttles cost between 80 and 300 dollars each depending on funstions. Decoder prices vary quite a bit. I've seen ads for basic decoders at 20 street price. The more functions, smaller size, and sound will increase the price. I'd also suggest that additional circuit protection between the boosters and the track be installed. Digitrax has the PM4 power manager for about 80 dollars. This can protect up to 4 sub-districts and can also provide auto-polarity reversal as well. Ballast lamps (i.e. 12 Volt automotive tail light bulds) are another lower cost method for short circuit protection. Your club could be looking at 2000 to 3000 in total investment, but you'ld only need 500 to 1000 initially. I've visited clubs that retain the analog wiring and replace an analog throttle with the DCC command station/boosters. This allows the decoder equiped locos to run in some of the blocks while the analog locos are in the other blocks. If you are going to try this, don't use a common rail return. The DCC boosters must be kept seperate from the analog throttles, both rails of must be isolated. If this isn't done, you'll be buying more equipment quickly.

I've not had any problems with Atlas' custome line turnouts with DCC. Some authors even feel that their product might be the best/easiest available DCC friendly turnout on the market. The trick with any turnout is to prevent short circuits between the front and back of a single wheel. The points and frog are the most common place for this to happen. If you power the frog, then you have to make sure that a break before make switch contact is used in order to prevent a short circuit as the points are moved.

Hope this helps. I've been doing my research for about 3 years. I'm now building my second DCC layout. No problems with the first go around electrically.

Paul Grayless ([e-mail])

[pgrayless]

Mike,

You can use speed tables or min, max, mid voltage adjustments in the various decoders to match the preformance of the different locomotives. As for how many boosters, that will depend on how many locos per train as well as how many active trains there are within each power district. Digitrax, as well as others, use 5 Amp boosters. Highter amperage boosters are available, but cost goes up. At 5 amps, you should be able to run 3 - 5 locos in one district at the same time. Lighted equipment also counts against the total Amp draw.

As for cost, Digitrax's Empire Builder II runs about $300.00 if I remember correctly. You will still need a power supply for the booster (about 30 - 50 dollars). Additional throttles cost between 80 and 300 dollars each depending on funstions. Decoder prices vary quite a bit. I've seen ads for basic decoders at 20 street price. The more functions, smaller size, and sound will increase the price. I'd also suggest that additional circuit protection between the boosters and the track be installed. Digitrax has the PM4 power manager for about 80 dollars. This can protect up to 4 sub-districts and can also provide auto-polarity reversal as well. Ballast lamps (i.e. 12 Volt automotive tail light bulds) are another lower cost method for short circuit protection. Your club could be looking at 2000 to 3000 in total investment, but you'ld only need 500 to 1000 initially. I've visited clubs that retain the analog wiring and replace an analog throttle with the DCC command station/boosters. This allows the decoder equiped locos to run in some of the blocks while the analog locos are in the other blocks. If you are going to try this, don't use a common rail return. The DCC boosters must be kept seperate from the analog throttles, both rails of must be isolated. If this isn't done, you'll be buying more equipment quickly.

I've not had any problems with Atlas' custome line turnouts with DCC. Some authors even feel that their product might be the best/easiest available DCC friendly turnout on the market. The trick with any turnout is to prevent short circuits between the front and back of a single wheel. The points and frog are the most common place for this to happen. If you power the frog, then you have to make sure that a break before make switch contact is used in order to prevent a short circuit as the points are moved.

Hope this helps. I've been doing my research for about 3 years. I'm now building my second DCC layout. No problems with the first go around electrically.

Paul Grayless ([e-mail])

[pgrayless]

Mike,

As with all things, they created what could be sold the easiest (i.e. HO decoders for most locos). AS time went on, better and smaller components could be used. Eventually N scale decoders, and now, Z scale too. The thing to watch out for with the smaller decoders is heat build up caused by higher Amp draw by the motor. The starting current draw could be the deciding factor here, as most good qualtity motors need very few mA to keep running. Most magazines over the last 2 - 3 years have had several good articles on decoder selection & installation. The info's out there if you want to find it.

Paul

[Anonymous]

A really 'ridiculous' question.....
I'm new to this DCC stuff and I am trying to gather all the information I can get. I'm seriously looking into getting a complete system Digitrax or Atlas). The club I'm in is looking into switching their layout from 'block control' to DCC (we do have a couple individuals who are verey against it). What I would like to know is what the booster generator does. Does it provide more power to run more locmotives? Does it increase the transmitting signal as well as the locomotive power capabilities? Why would you need more and why does some (if not all) the systems have a maximum allowable amount of added booster generators (I believe Atlas allows up to 3 boosters). Is this the actual power to run the locomotives or just to transmit the 'carrier control signals'. If it is not the actual power, why can't I use a more powerful DC power supply (example=deep cycle batteries, like we had with slot cars *I realize that some of the special 'pulsing' slow start effects may not be available with batteries*. These gave us up to 400+ amps of 'cranking' power). With a power source lilke this, you could run nearly every model train in the California. There must be a catch. I know (or led to understand) that 'full power and voltage' is always available and constant with a DCC system. The decoder actually regulates how much voltage the motor is actually getting based on what is being sent to it by the 'commander'. This may sound like a 'stupid question', but I've always believed that the only 'true stupid question' is the one not asked. So if someone would be kind enoough to fill me in on what these power boosters are and what they do and why there is a limit on how many you can have, it would be very greatly appreciated.

thanks

Mike

[Anonymous]

By the way...

Thanks for the information about turnouts, speed control, etc. I'm printing all of this for our club so that we may all be beter informed as they look into changing over. The one's in the club, who claimed to be the most knowlegable on this subjuect', are also the one's most against it. They, coincidently are the 'old timers' that did most (if not all) the block wiring. So far all the 'negatives' they have 'thrown into the pan' have all proven to be 'biased' and totally inaccurate. They're against it (at this time) and are trying to do everything and say everything to keep us from trying it. With it, they would have to install decoders on all their (favorite) locomotives to get the 'true' benefit.

Thanks for the infor:


Mike

[cmrproducts]

Mike

As to your question about the number of additional boosters. The Digitrax system has no limits on the number of additional units. When changing over from block to DCC I was involved with changing the club I belong to over to Digitrax and we just set all of the block switches to the main line and wired the Digitrax system to that terminal strip and disconnected the std DC control. We did add plug panels compatable to the Digitrax system around the facia of the layout. So the layout was not altered from the original block control and can be changed back with the changing of 4 wires. Hope this makes it easier to convert your club over and if at all possible use radio throttles as once the members experience radio they will never want to plug in again!

BOB H Clarion, PA

[cmrproducts]

Mike

Additional info from previous post.

The boosters allow you to spread the power around the layout evenly and not have to group them all in one area. This makes shorter wire runs. It will also break the layout into sections so that a short in one section will not shut down the rest of the layout. Digitrax makes 5 amp and 8 amp boosters. The my club layout (34x25ft)uses 1-5 amp system and runs about 6 to 8 trains. My home layout (25x75ft) has 1-8 amp system at this time with a PM4 power manager, a 4 section ckt breaker/reverse loop controller. I have the layout about (trackwork) 1/3rd done and have started operations and am running about 10 trains. Once the layout is finished I may have to add an additional 8 amp booster.

BOB H Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

Thanks. This information will be of considerable help. Currently the club utilizes two channel (A & B) of cab control. The only 'hard wired control' is the main yard which is set-up with it's own 'hogger' and block switches to allow parts of the yard to run off the (radio) Channel A or B controls. Besides the installation, the biggest concern is getting the couple of ;negative' ("old timer block") guys to enjoy themselves with it. So far, most everyone in clubs with similar personnel have found this not to be a major hurdle.

I'll be printing all the responses to questions I have post (reguardless of how basic they are/were) to utilize later as a reference. I have also contacted each of the DCC companies (MRC, Atlas, Digitrax and Easy DCC) with various questions. They usually respond in more of a 'sales pitch - we can do it mode', where as normal model railroad folks on this group site respond with better and more informative answers, having solved many of the "problems" themselves. I guess you could say "that's the value and purpose of this site and the forums'.

The more information I can get, the better. After all, why make the smae mistakes others may or may not have made. You can learn from the 'mistakes' of others by asking. I'm sure I'll find ways to make enough 'new' mistakes of my own.


thanks to everyone

Mike

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the answer. The more I can learn, the easier it will be to answer questions to others in our club and the better we can plan on what we are doing when we di install DCC in the layout.


thanks

Mike

[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

As a start from scratch layoug, I do not feel that there is much difference in price if you consider all of the extra wire and switches for DC block control. If you're going to use powered turnouts, both systems have to have wiring and controls. With DCC alot of extras can be added with minimal effort after you start up(signals, occupancy protection, train routing). I went with digitrax and have never regretted it. I have even been able to reserect some of my old three pole open frame locomotives fro the display shelf!

[Kent]

You mentioned the Atlas Commander, made by Lenz. that what I started out with, then tried a DIgitrax Zypher that went back to the store in less then a week. It locked up twice for no reason and I had to cut power to the system to get it to reset....

I then got a Lenz Set90 and I'm very happy with it!! Also, my Atlas Commander now serves as an extra throttle.

Lenz has a 10 year warrany, DIgitrax is only 1 year, and for their deoders the warrany EXPIRES when the decoder is INSTALLED! Lenz covers it even if you goof up the installation. I was talking to a guy at the local club at a hobby show a couple weeks ago and he was telling me about somebody the dropped and broke their Lenz throttle, Lenz replaced it!

Lenz also created the DCC standard to start with. And they are built well.
see http://www.lenz.com

For your club to save move, you could start out with an Atlas Commander and a couple extra throttles (LH90, or LH100, or XPA) and as your demands increase go the a Set90 or 100 or just add a LVZ100 command station.

[cacole]

Log onto the various manufacturers' Web sites and download their operator's manuals. By reading through these your club members can get a fairly accurate idea of how simple or complicated a DCC system is to install and use. If anyone intends to have SoundTraxx decoders or to purchase any Broadway Limited or other sound-equipped locomotives, don't get the Atlas system because it cannot activate the sound functions. You need to look for a system that offers at least 8 decoder functions in order to be fully compatible with sound systems. Digitrax is highly recommended by most people, but I personally also like Easy DCC from CVP Products. CVP has radio control throttles that are compatible with Digitrax, so check their throttle prices if you go wireless and your club may be able to save some money on them.

[Anonymous]

Mike, in Vancouver, British Columbia all the clubs use Digitrax. You need to keep in mind that over time your club's needs/wants are going to change. So you want to be thinking about the next year, but also the next 20 years. All you need is one bushy tailed electronics type person and eventually your club will be running signals, sound, etc. Also a computer might bring trains out from staging for you, or run a passenger train around the layout will other humans work the freights.

You might have long distance dispatching, where the person dispatching might very well live here in Vancouver BC, or dispatch from Alaska.

If your club is serious take advantage of the 30% discount, and everyone can buy some of their own equipment along with it.

Digitrax is American and is the largest DCC company in North America. Lenz is the largest in Europe.

Some will have heard that Digitrax is difficult to use. To a certain extent, this was more true a few years ago. Digitrax listened to us whiners and came out with easier to use cabs in which commands aren't as cryptic as they were with early cabs (like the one I own).

[Anonymous]

I have purchased an MRC Prodigy DCC System (power supply, console & WA throttle)
plus the Power Station 8 & Prodigy Synchro Sound Station. Is there any reason that this seems to be the only DCC system that is never mentioned in any of your articles?
It seems to be a very good system, at least as far as I can tell, but then what do I know? I have a considerable investment in this thing & would like to know if I have made a good purchase or screwed up. In addition, I am an "N" Scaler & it seems that 95% of all articles are aimed at "HO" scale (my former scale). I realize that most instructions are for all scales, But I would appreciate (as a long time subscriber & purchaser of MR--I have issues going back to 1952--remember the "Pine Tree Central"?) some articles aimed at "N" Scale. It seems to me that this is the more difficult scale to work with (on). I Changed scales in 1997 & went with MRC because I already owned several of their power packs, plus the fact that they have been advertising on the back cover of MR for a long time (Varney, PFM, Akane, etc.--pretty good company). I put a lot of faith in what you guys say. I would hate to have to give up this hobby. (If I ever tried to switch back to "HO" & cab control now I fear a 43 year marriage would go PFFT if I didn"t take up shell collecting or something instead) .
Thanks for all of yuor help-- past & future.
Arthur J. Weeks
EMail: Muttzie [e-mail]
eks