I have a large bunch of old brass track including turnouts and atlas snap track that is tarnished and want to make a "module" add on to my existing 5x9 layout based on the Atlas Granite Gorge and Northern that I have built mainly for the grandsons to watch trains run. I want to build a little switching and industries so I have a little variety other than the loop over loop over loop run around in circles of GG&N. What can be used to clean the track prior to soldering... I have tested TARN-EX on a piece and it seems to have cleaned up ok even though the bottle says not to use on brass...tested it about a month ago and no visible signs of damage to the brass. Surly fellow at the LHS ( figure he's going out of business soon ) says I should scrap it all, but recommended a specific type of flux to use by brand name but I can't remember it. Any thoughts or recommedations?
I once caught a train in my pajama's. How it got in my pajama's I'll never know... (sorry, Groucho)
That surly fellow is right.... IF you were going to use it for your layout ONLY. Serious modelers wouldn't touch brass.
Since its for the grandkids..who cares. Use the brass track. Sounds like you found a good way to clean it. I always used fine grit sandpaper, about 400 and used it everyother day. I had too on that crappy brass track
Magnesium wheel polish has been recommended for rail cleaning here, and it does seem to minimize re-cleaning. Don't know how well it will clean brass, but it might be worth experimenting with. (My brass is all at the far ends of back-in staging tracks where locomotives never go.)
For solder prep, sanding (or scraping, with a metal tool) plus acid-free flux (either paste or liquid) will work. It does on the brass scrap rail that I use for turnout guard rails.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
My thoughts are this: If I was going to use brass track, the last place I would use it is on a switching layout. Slow speed, lots of starts and stops are not the best application for track with marginal conductivity.
Plan on cleaning it often.
Jim
Thanks for anwering, but being new to MR forums I forgot to do a search on this topic.... seems there are a lot of threads on Brass track already. I have read a bunch and pretty much they are all saying the same thing, that using brass is ok if you want to invest the time in cleaning. Other posts about metal vs. plastic wheels also give insight into keeping the rail clean, which is why the local Club standards will not allow plastic wheels on their layout. bearing that in mind. I will probably use it and solder all the joints except the turnouts.
Earl
Do it right the first time...get rid of the track. It will work, as it has for many years,but there are so many points in the circuit that can have contact problems that I wouldn't add another. The oxide that forms on brass will not conduct electricity. When you hit these spots you will have arcing at the wheels that end up as tiny pits on the wheels that collect dirt which causes arcing which..........etc.
If you already have your mind made up & want to use the brass track, use a wire wheel in a motor tool to clean the area where the rail joiners will go. Most all polishes leave a coating that will make soldering difficult. As for soldering, use thin ( 1/32 - 1/16 ) rosin core solder, Put some extra rosin on the joint before soldering. Radio Shack has it in a small tube that will probably last you a lifetime. Good Luck. Jerry
As others have said here many times, brass track is a collector's item. In my neighborhood, they collect on Tuesday and Friday.
cacole wrote: As others have said here many times, brass track is a collector's item. In my neighborhood, they collect on Tuesday and Friday.
Agreed. If, if you want to do things the more reliable way. Brass track isn't really any less reliable if very well maintained, but it tarnishes and corrodes faster and will result in poor conductivity alot faster than nickel-silver track. So if you think that it will be within the budget, just replace the track with the nickel-silver track to save hassle and make a more enjoyable experience. Plus, you will most likely end up wanting to replace it after a while anyways if you get serious in the hobby, and that can cause a mess in pulling up the track after you have ballasted and did other scenery. Just my $0.02
-beegle55
ds137 wrote:I have a large bunch of old brass track including turnouts and atlas snap track that is tarnished and want to make a "module" add on to my existing 5x9 layout based on the Atlas Granite Gorge and Northern that I have built mainly for the grandsons to watch trains run. I want to build a little switching and industries so I have a little variety other than the loop over loop over loop run around in circles of GG&N. What can be used to clean the track prior to soldering... I have tested TARN-EX on a piece and it seems to have cleaned up ok even though the bottle says not to use on brass...tested it about a month ago and no visible signs of damage to the brass. Surly fellow at the LHS ( figure he's going out of business soon ) says I should scrap it all, but recommended a specific type of flux to use by brand name but I can't remember it. Any thoughts or recommedations?
Brass track was the standard of the industry up to the late 1950's. Nickel silver has a more realistic color, and the tarnish is conductive, so trains run better on tarnished track. Brass ternishes quite slowly however and polishing of railheads might only be necessary after years of use.
Brass solders well. Use Rosin flux, it's a dark greasy paste, comes in little cans. Use 60-40 tin-lead solder. Avoid acid fluxes and 50-50 solder, they are only good for plumbing. I don't trust the "lead-free" solders and fluxes coming out recently. Use a pair of alligator clips as heat sinks to reduce the amount of tie melting while soldering.
For cleaning the rail prior to soldering feeders or rail joiners, a wire brush in a Dremel is hard to beat. For periodic cleaning of the railheads, I've used alcohol (any kind) on a rag and GooGone also with a rag. For unlaid track, loose in my hand, brass polish works, but it leaves white stains on the ties. The stains come off in water, which is easy before you lay the track, but gets messy doing it on the layout.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
"Since its for the grandkids..who cares. Use the brass track. Sounds like you found a good way to clean it. I always used fine grit sandpaper, about 400 and used it everyother day. I had too on that crappy brass track."
Well making a layout with brass track is one way to drive the kids out of the hobby!!
They'll get very frustrated in a few months when everything quits working due to the track. An adult modeller who was very fastidious with cleaning the track every day might be able to get a brass track layout to run well, but I doubt the kids would be that neat.
BTW the problems with brass track are the same for DC and DCC...and it doesn't matter if you solder the joints or not, that's not the main problem.
I have to tell you, I'm getting tired of the comments about brass track not working. If it's the really old stuff, then yes, get rid of it. If it's brass track with plastic ties, it will work fine. Would I recommend buying it, no, there are better options. NS track is better, I know, but the opinions that brass is complete garbage are a little extreme. I'm sure this is the same group that is whining about the high cost of modeling. You do NOT have to clean brass track that often. I've had to clean mine a half dozen times in a year. The cleanings have coincided with scenery work. If no scenery work is being done, no cleaning is required. I'm sorry to go off a little here, but ask those with NS track if they ever have to clean their track.
Actually, I have to disagree with those who say that you can't run reliably on brass track. Yes, you do have to clean it more often, but...
When I worked in a hobby shop several years ago, the owner brought out his old layout as a store display. It was completely built with brass track. We had to scrub it in just a couple of spots where water had gotten onto the rails (it was stored in an attic for about 15 years), but other than that...it ran fine. We had to clean the track after about 6 months or so. Oh, and we also tested it out with DCC. Granted, it was an old MRC Command 2000, but it worked, and there weren't any major problems.
Now please don't take this as bashing nickel-silver track. I'm most definitely NOT doing that. I'm just trying to point out that brass track isn't as bad as many people seem to think it is. Steel track, on the other hand, is to be avoided at all costs.
If I had to build a layout now (and that's in the plans for the semi-near future), I'd use NS exclusively, mostly because of the appearance. However, if you're building a layout for your grandkids, by all means, use the brass track.
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
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The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
BRASS TRACK IS FINE - As long as it is CLEAN.
It solders better, and a 'BRITE BOY' (cheap) does the job.
I might suggest it is currently subject to 'snob appeal' from a newer generation of 'modelers'. !. N.S. is newer 2.It may look more realistic 3. If btass were cheaper, many so-called 'fans' would still be using it, along with their code 100.
I replaced most of my brass track with N.S. on my 2nd layout because it was similarly priced, and was an upgrale of sorts.
My current upgrading is weathered code 70 track - it looks more real, still.
Brass rail tarnishes, but N.S. collects dirt and carbon (arcing) just like my brass did. BOTH get dirty. BOTH need periodic cleaning.
Tarnished brass track more closely resembles rusted unused rail on spurs. (Go look). I still have some custom made turnouts combining N.S and Brass - just for this effect.
DO I use N.S.? Yes, it IS an upgrade. But i'm not afraid of brass.
Arjay1969 wrote:Actually, I have to disagree with those who say that you can't run reliably on brass track. Yes, you do have to clean it more often, but... Now please don't take this as bashing nickel-silver track. I'm most definitely NOT doing that. I'm just trying to point out that brass track isn't as bad as many people seem to think it is. Steel track, on the other hand, is to be avoided at all costs. If I had to build a layout now (and that's in the plans for the semi-near future), I'd use NS exclusively, mostly because of the appearance. However, if you're building a layout for your grandkids, by all means, use the brass track.
Have to agree with some to most of the quote. Brass track needs to be cleaned for both electrical conductivity and for dirt. Nickel silver track has to be cleaned to improve conductivity and for dirt. Brass oxidizes faster than nickel silver, and brass oxide is a non-conductor. Nickel silver oxidizes, but the oxide is a sort-of conductor (like graphite).
How often brass track needs to be cleaned depends on how often you run your trains with metal wheels, and your climate in your train room (brass oxidizes far more rapidly in a humid climate - visible tarnish forms overnight at sea, don't ask me how I know this.). Running trains with metal wheels has some polishing action which breaks down oxide on both nickel silver and brass. The heavier and more frequent the metal wheels run on the rails, the less chance of oxidation. In Northern Virginia - in the '60s in the summer without air conditioning! - running around the brass track oval 10 times about three times a week was enough to keep the oxide and cleaning fluid at bay. But skip a whole week of running, and without fail, I'd have to clean the track before my trains would run.
For these reasons, I recommend that if you are using brass track, you use it where it will see frequent use - the main line. Using brass track on rarely used spurs is sure to lead to stalls and frustration.
Steel track is not the nightmare everybody makes it out to be either. Modern steel rail - when you can find it - is a joy in every respect. It is very rust resistant, solders easily, has much better traction, and can be drawn in very accurate cross sections. It's disadvantage - it doesn't have the silvery color of prototype steel rail!
Older steel rail used on cheap model track oxidizes (rusts in the case of steel) about the same as brass. It is not fun to solder - flux is mandatory. It does look like the real thing, more accurate than nickel silver, which shouldn't, but all too often has a golden tinge. Locomotives with steel wheel tires on steel rail will far out-pull their otherwise identical counterparts with nickel-plated tires on nickel silver rail. Brass is actually in between steel and nickel as far as traction goes.
Whatever you build, having time and fun with your grandkids is the ultimate goal. If you are having fun spending time with them, they will have fun regardless of whether a train runs or not. Keep your eyes on the goal, and let the journey support, not thwart, the goal.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Folks:
My current model railroad is built in a dusty basement from a mixture of new NS, old salvaged NS, and some brass and Life-Like and Tyco steel from the train show. It runs well.
The most cleaning had to be done when first laying the track, much of it quite dirty and tarnished, some even green-corroded. This was about equal for the brass, NS, and steel. The old, disused NS was absolutely terrible, even worse than the brass, and the oxidation was very hard to clean off.
I am really starting to wonder what the real deal is with oxidation - just what are the oxides involved? Both brass and NS contain copper; brass and some NS alloys contain zinc. NS also contains nickel. I'm also beginning to wonder if the real problem with brass isn't oxidation, but that the metal is softer and collects more dirt. I do think that the gentleman using 400 grit paper to clean track caused his own troubles. I have used sandpaper on really tough spots without trouble, but it was 800 grit, and even that might be too coarse...crocus cloth would be better, I think.
What I have had really good luck with, on old and cruddy secondhand track, is hand-rubbing with a softwood block that has had Brasso rubbed into its surface. This cleans the rail quickly, without getting residue on the ties. I then clean the railhead with an alcohol-dampened rag. Once the rail is clean, running a John Allen slider car behind an old Lifelike F keeps the dirt from accumulating, and only an occasional wipe with alcohol seems to be needed.
Running trains every day , or every other day, I haven't noticed any difference in dirt accumulation between brass, steel, and NS, and what does build up is plain old oily black grunge.
I wouldn't buy new brass track, and I intend to replace mine eventually, but if you've got it, use it with care. It works.
I think it's time to clear up a detail in the brass vs. nickel-silver debate:
Nickel silver does NOT conduct electricity better than brass. It's actually a somewhat poorer conductor of electricity than brass. In fact, it is used in some heating coils precisely because of its high electrical resistance (ref Wikipedia: Uses ). Its preference for model railroading is based on 1) its appearance, which is closer in color to steel than brass, and 2) the improved conductivity of its oxide.
Brass also solders as well as or better than nickle silver. It has a higher copper content, which helps greatly in that regard.
Brass track can certainly be used as reliably as nickle silver, but the key here is used. Brass was around for a long time before nickel silver came on the scene, and many great modelers used it with excellent results. However, it doesn't like to be abandoned for months at a time.
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
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