2 truck shay-maximum grade?

[Blind Bruce]

I am considering an HO short short line inside my oval 4X8. What is the max grade the average geared loco will pull a couple of log cars up? I'm thinking tight turns and a steep grade, Maybe HOn3.

[selector]

With good track on which it can keep all its feet on the ground, and a couple of cars with normal weight, properly tuned axles, and curves not much tighter than 14", you should be able to haul those two cars up 5-7%...but it'll be something to see if it actually works, Bruce.

[fwright]

Do you have a particular locomotive in mind?  

There have only been 2 RTR non-brass mass-produced Shay models in HO - the Bachmann and the MDC.  The Bachmann is a 3 truck standard gauge, and the MDC came in 2 or 3 truck, HO or HOn3, and RTR or kit.  Most MDC Shays - both RTR and kit - did not run well out of the box, but there are some that did.  Most needed a fair amount of tuning to run well.  When tuned, most MDC Shays can be coaxed around 15" radius curves in both HO and HOn3.  Because the MDC Shay typically weighs more than the Bachmann, it can do steeper grades.

The Keystone Shay (kit only, both HO and HOn3) is all metal, and is a real puller for its size.  The kit is daunting, and requires an NWSL motorizing kit to power it, which is out of production.  I intend to use mine to pull a 20" train (2 HOn3 cars and caboose) up average 6% (peak at 8%) grades.  Whether this will work remains to be tested.

I've seen the MDC (Roundhouse) Climax in stock form do the 6-8% grades with 2 cars on 15" radius in HO standard gauge.  Unfortunately, improving its looks usually requires reducing the weight, which reduces pulling power.  And the stock power train is very noisy.  Tuning, regearing, and/or remotoring is strongly recommended.

Rivarossi Heislers need regearing and additional weight to make them run slower and pull more (at least my 1st or 2nd run does) for your apparent application.  Not available in HOn3, and quite large for HO standard gauge.

If you can keep your grades down around 6%, a couple of cars on a 15" radius curve is not out of the question for a steam geared loco or a diesel switcher (more modern option).  Both geared steam and diesel switchers will do better than rod steam engines; the exception being steam tank locos like an 0-6-0T or 0-4-0T, which should do well when weighted.  Testing with specific locomotives and cars before committing is highly recommended.

just my thoughts and experiences, yours may vary

Fred W

[Anonymous]

any deep grade for adhesion working Loco worldwide is lower than 7 % otherwise you need to get helping equipment like chainwheels etc.

7 % is like climbing on a 1 meter or 1000 mm distance a height of 7 cm or 70 mm, that will be the maximum for the prototypes like in modelling, short trains are a must without helping Locos ahead in the middle or behind longer trains.

Hillside running Log Cars were empty and Downhill running Log Trains were full of Load to the Log Cars.

Mostly the Locos needed to break the completely train by its weight and its own breaks by downhill running.

For regulary Freight and Passenger operation a Percentage of 3.5 % will be a very deep Grade which could be done with helper Engines only.

For Logtrains are a percentage of 5% to 7% realistic.

The deeper the grade, also the higher the percentage of the Grade, the lower should be the Trainweight, also the shorter the Trains.

To run a two truck Shay with more than 5 Cars downhill onto a deep Grade of more than 5% will look not real but it looks realistic running uphill with more than 10 unloaded Cars.

[tomikawaTT]

In prototype operation, Shays have been used on short stretches of 10% and more.  IIRC, the shoo-fly switchback around the burned trestle on the Roaring Camp and Big Trees peaked at 13%.

As a practical matter, the best way to find out how severe a grade your (fillintheblanks) will take is to build a grade test fixture and gradually increase the gradient until the loco (with appropriate load) stalls or slips.  You might be pleasantly (or unpleasantly) surprised.

I wouldn't worry too much about drive train noise from a geared steam loco.  The well-worn gears on the Alishan Forestry Railroad (Taiwan) Shays sounded like four kids dragging sticks along a picket fence!  Upgrade, the racket was masked by the exhaust.  Downgrade, it wasn't.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[rrebell]

Had an mdc shay that could do over a  45 degree by itself, never built a layout like that, just wanted to see what it could do!!!!

[R. T. POTEET]

Blind Bruce, model wise I don't have the slightest idea how many cars any of the commercially available geared locomotive models will lug - that ain't my kinda railroading; prototype wise I seem to recall that 7 and 8% were not unusual grades for Shays, Climaxes, or Heislers.  There are two ways to look at this; keep in mind that most geared locomotives were sold to lumbering interests and lumber haulers move empty upgrade and loaded downgrade - log cars such as (used to be marketed by Kadee) did not have air brakes and so, in the interest of safety, the locomotive always operated on the upgrade end of the train; and, secondly, a lot of the selling points of geared locomotives was that their very nature enabled them to negotiate what one might call substandard track and numerous photographs have been published which shows trackwork that is as boney as a dog's hind leg..