FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[tstage]

The NCE ProCab does allow you to unplug the throttle and move to another station and plug back in and resume control. The difference is that the ProCab is also the command station, which means you can also program and set CVs anywhere on the layout as well. Joe's term "walkaround form factor" is just another way of saying "mobile command station".

There's nothing mysterious about the wiring for the NCE system, it's just a daisy-chain of 6-conductor RG-12 telephone cable to each plug-in station. The power buss is the same as you would have for any system.

NCE does also have "utility throttles" or cabs that can control a couple of trains, but can't do the programing.

Actually, Jay, you are mostly right.  The NCE Pro Cab can be unplugged and plugged.  But it must and can only do that when used with the Powerhouse Pro command station.  The Pro Cab is only an "intelligent" throttle.  The Powerhouse Pro command station houses the brains and booster.

On the other hand, the NCE Power Cab is the one that is the command station, throttle, and booster all rolled up into one.  If you disconnect the Power Cab from the power panel, it will shut down the entire system.

However, with the advent of the Smart Booster, the Power Cab can now become a full-fledged walkaround system and be plugged and unplugged into/from either the Smart Booster or PCP (power) panel - without shutting down your layout.

Tom

[modelmaker51]

The NCE ProCab does allow you to unplug the throttle and move to another station and plug back in and resume control. The difference is that the ProCab is also the command station, which means you can also program and set CVs anywhere on the layout as well. Joe's term "walkaround form factor" is just another way of saying "mobile command station".

There's nothing mysterious about the wiring for the NCE system, it's just a daisy-chain of 6-conductor RG-12 telephone cable to each plug-in station. The power buss is the same as you would have for any system.

NCE does also have "utility throttles" or cabs that can control a couple of trains, but can't do the programing.

[ft-fan]

I've just finished reading through this thread for the first time. Maybe the next time through, it will take less than 2 days! LOL

I appreciate the effort that has gone into this, the research and time spent writing and editing. The reviews on consisting/MU'ing were very helpful. However, they have been limited to basic low-end starter sets. I have looked at these sets, but felt that I wanted to jump right to a full-blown system instead. Is it possible for anyone who has used more advanced systems, like the Digitrax Chief or Super Chief, or the NCE Power-cab, to do the same kind of review of ease-of-use studies? I would like to see how easy it is to use the Digitrax DT400R or DT4R or the throttle for the NCE Power Cab (Joe's potentially new favorite :-)  ).

Also, Joe mentioned the form factor and this is new to me. I understand the sit-on-a-table-somewhere form factor, what is a walkaround form factor? Does each throttle have its own command station built into it? How does this all hook together? What impact does this wiring have on the wiring which needs to be done? I have to admit I have not read anything on the kind of bus that NCE uses, I am most familiar with LocoNet and think it is pretty cool and straight-forward.

Thanks for all this great information.

FT

[jfugate]

Yes I gotta re-read this one soon.  Did Zimo eventually get reviewed?

No, it did not. I've got their manuals and having read through them it's pretty clear their system is essentially a specialized PC made to run DCC. The big advantage of this approach is almost everything is in software, which makes the Zimo system far more easily upgradable than any other DCC system on the market. It also makes Zimo far more expensive than any DCC system on the market -- so if you have the bucks, Zimo is an option worth looking into.

For people looking for a good starter system under $200, Zimo isn't it, unfortunately. A Zimo starter set is over $700.

The other thing with Zimo is its user interface has a characteristic European feel, which is somewhat reminiscent of Lenz. The interface is European "electronic tech" in feel with lots of clever buttons and features to do things, but it's all kind of overwhelming. My operators prefer simple and obvious -- give them a big throttle knob, forward and reverse, a normal 0-9 keypad for entering loco addresses and pressing a few function keys and they're happy. Forget special secret meaning "*", "#" or "shift" keys. The NCE knobby throttles are a great example of this kind of blatently obvious interface design. The NCE throttles have two clearly labeled buttons "Select loco" and "horn", plus "FWD" and "REV". Now how much more obvious can you get than this?

Zimo goes *way* beyond this in their throttles, with lots of clever techy labels on their multi-function buttons since they've got so many features. Just reading the manual to figure all this out will make your head spin.

So Zimo is cool and very powerful, but their user interface is not something you can teach your new operators in a few  minutes. Their system is the Cadillac of the DCC market, and priced accordingly.

[CrazyDiamond]

Yes I gotta re-read this one soon.  Did Zimo eventually get reviewed?

[jfugate]

Given the recent threads on buying DCC systems, here's this thread brought back from outer mongolia.

[jfugate]

And for those in the market for a DCC system, here's this thread resurrected ...

[rghammill]

I'm just getting back into modeling, and I know I will be moving to DCC in the future, so this is a great help.

However, I'm hoping to go in a slightly different direction in the short term so I can spend as little as possible for a low-end stop gap until I can afford the better DCC systems (and allow a few more years of devlopment.

The 'layout' I'm setting up is primarily for my 3-year old daughter and myself because she likes to run the trains. It's a couple of loops, and any more complicated running will be experiments and one train at a time. So I don't need a full blown DCC system yet, but I do want to play around with some of the capabilities.

What I do need (or really want) is sound, and extra running features and all would be nice.

So I'm hoping that QSI releases their after market decoder very soon because I'd like to start with with their Quantum Engineer controller. It's not DCC, it just lets you do lots of DCC-like things with DC. And it's only $60 (list).

I only have 7 locomotives right now that I need decoders for, and the QSI ones fully support DCC, and are software upgradable (their older generation requires a new chip, but that new chip is software upgradable).

One of the other major benefits is that I can let my daughter run the locomotives with a much lower risk of damage because while the train is running the reverse switch won't reverse the loco. It blows the horn instead. Only when the train is stopped does the reverse switch reverse the locomotive. Right now, of course, she enjoys flipping it regularly.

Anyway, for those just toying with the idea right now, I think this might be a good option. It only works with the QSI decoders, but they seem to be pretty good. Expecially because from what I'm seeing, there are a lot of new developments in the DCC arena and I think we'll see some really interesting systems in the next couple of years.

Randy

[jfugate]

Just finding this Forum Clinic again and giving it a bump.

[jfugate]

I've noticed several "starter DCC system" posts so I thought I would update this thread with my latest thinking in this area.

LEARNING DCC ON THE CHEAP
If you check out ebay, you can buy a Bachmann DCC system for about $50. If you are really strapped for cash, and are not sure what DCC system to buy, I think getting a Bachmann system for $50 is a great education into things DCC.

You can't do a lot with a Bachmann system, but for 50 bucks it will get you started and allow you to put some decoders into your locos.

Plan on outgrowing the Bachmann system and getting something else later. But you will learn some of the DCC basics with a Bachmann system and then later you can sell it on ebay and get some of your 50 bucks back -- and you will be knowledgeable enough in things DCC to understand what you really want out of your *real* DCC system.

And while learning DCC with your Bachmann system, you can be saving up for your real system.

NCE POWERCAB -- STATE-OF-THE-ART STARTER DCC SYSTEM
NCE has really scored a home run with their new Powercab starter DCC system. It uses a walkaround command station form factor, and is completely upgradeable to their full Powerhouse Pro system later.

You get a lot of system for a mere $140. The other starter system in this price bracket is the Digitrax Zephyr system, but in my option, the Zephyr now uses a rather dated powerpack form factor. The NCE system uses a walkaround form factor, which makes a lot more sense given the direction of DCC these days.

It used to be you programmed decoders using a stationary programming track, so having a stationary command station in a powerpack form factor made a lot of sense. You could always expand beyond this with walkaround throttles, and use the stationary command station to program decoders on the programming track (Service Mode programming).

But with nearly all decoders now supporting programming on the main (Ops Mode programming), having a handheld command station in a walkaround form factor makes a lot of sense. You can literally go anywhere on your layout and program your locos. You no longer have to drag the loco back to the programming track to program CVs.

NCE's PowerCab system even allows changing decoder addresses on the main, so you hardly ever need use the programming track ever again.

A PERSONAL NOTE ON DCC SYSTEMS
My EasyDCC system also uses a stationary command station form factor, and I'm in the need of upgrading my wireless throttles now as my system ages (it's now 6 years old).

With NCE's release of the PowerCab system, I've taken another look at NCE and am giving serious consideration to moving to NCE so I can have the wireless handheld command station option. I can see more and more cases where I would like to just go find a loco on my 1100 square foot layout and program it right there -- and not have to keep dragging locos back to the programming track.

My stationary command station prevents me from doing this. And with the advent of sound decoders and fancier decoder functions, I'm getting more interested in perhaps some simple programming on the main while operating.

As a result, I've seen the stationary command station form factor as a real hindrance to the direction DCC is going and see NCE's PowerCab starter system as a stroke of genious as to the ideal form factor for a DCC system. Enough so that I'm even considering moving to NCE as my DCC system of choice.

[jfugate]

I just recently bought an NCE PowerCab system to use for offline loco programming.

So I now either own or have owned Lenz, EasyDCC, and now NCE. And so far, I've liked each one better than the last. We'll see on the new NCE.

I am finding the EasyDCC "upper limit" of 8 distinct throttle channels to be an issue and given the vast improvements of NCE's radio reception, plus the $200+ price of EasyDCC's new radio throttles ... I see NCE pulling out front as the radio system I would recommend.

The other issue with EasyDCC is the stationary programming panel. In the days before ops mode programming on the main became popular, this made sense. But now mobile decoder programming on the main with a true wireless system (never need to plug in) narrows you down to just one system: NCE.

I think Zimo does this as well, but that's a cadillac system based on using a PC as the core -- while really cool for flexibility, you pay for that luxury with Zimo. Plus the Zimo system has little penetratrion so far in the US market, which could make support somewhat tough. You can find lots of US NCE users online and if you're lucky, you might even have a few NCE users local to you.

NCE doesn't have the shared channel issue after 8 throttles that EasyDCC has. Once you start sharing channels on EasyDCC, you start getting response delays when you work the throttle, which can be annoying if you want to play the whistle or do some switching. Most EasyDCC users I know who need more than 8 throttles have 5 dedicated channel throttles and the rest of the throttles share 3 channels.

I currently use EasyDCC, but the system is now 6 years old and needing some hardware replacement in both throttles and possibly eventually moving to the newer command station. I'm giving strong consideration to moving to NCE wireless, since I can do that in stages where for a time, I use my current EasyDCC throttles with the NCE system.

I do know EasyDCC's radio reception for the most part has been rock solid, and NCE's radio reception in the past has been iffy. Word is, however, NCE's new and improved receiver and half-wave throttle antenna has completely solved the issue.

Just some of the latest in DCC-land for me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

More "which DCC system?" questions on the forum lately, so time to resurrect this puppy again. [swg]

Until there is a DCC system in every house (and a chicken in every pot) this one will live on!

[jfugate]

More "which DCC system?" questions on the forum lately, so time to resurrect this puppy again. [swg]

[jfugate]

Just wanted to give a quick update on my first Lenz Gold decoder I acquired recently.

I reported on here the decoder would not program on the programming track, and that puzzled me (and Lenz) greatly. I finally sent the decoder to Lenz and Debbie Ames herself sent me a personal note back along with a brand new decoder, explaining that my decoder was bad and they were replacing it for free. So I am now the happy owner of a fully functioning Lenz Gold decoder. [swg]

Now that's service, and I thought Lenz should get some kudos for their excellent support!

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: [i]

Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

Art:

Very good! That's what I was talking about in my original post a couple few back.

Now just do it for all of the 10-12 items I referenced, and for every system, and have it done by Friday, and we're set!!!![:p][:D][:p][:D]

Again, to all you guys out there that are taking the time to research and post comparison/review "stuff" on here, a big Thank You! [tup] I know I've been helped greatly by this, and I'm sure others have too.

Len

[jfugate]

Glad to help, jwar.

There've been some questions lately about NCE versus Digitrax, so I'm posting something to get this thread bumped up again.

[jwar]

Thank you Joe.. yes it was iinfo I was curious about. What I really need to do is quit reading and just get it.and get on with it...LOL...Thanks again...John

[jfugate]

jwar:

I've used NCE, EasyDCC, and Digitrax wireless.

Digitrax requires you to plug in to acquire the loco, then you can unplug and walk around. Personally, I don't like the need to plug in. The reason I go with wireless is so I don't have to install a throttle bus around the layout. Digitrax makes me install the throttle bus anyhow.

NCE has suffered from wireless reliabiltiy issues because it is a duplex system -- meaning the radio throttles both send and receive. Duplex is limited by law to much lower power levels and this has plagued NCE's wireless system. Recently, NCE has released a half wave antenna system (instead of quarter wave), which makes the antenna twice as long. The longer antenna improves wireless reception. NCE also redesigned their wireless receiver to improve its reliability. Word is these improvements eliminates most of NCE's reception issues.

EasyDCC has had rock solid reception for me -- however it's limited to 8 distinct channels so if you need more than 8 wireless throttles, you need to have throttles start sharing channels. You can have up to 7 throttles share each of the 8 channels, for a total of 56 throttles before you max out the system.

Since I haven't needed to move beyond 8 throttles yet, I've not taken the plunge to sharing channels. Throttle response delay has thus been minimal and not an issue. However, I have heard that sharing channels begins to introduce delays that can be annoying if you have a lot of throttles sharing the same channel.

I will need more than 8 throttle eventually, so my thought has been to have 5 of the throttles use dedicated channels, and have 3 of the channels have shared channel throttles. If you are running a through train (where some delay in response will be okay) then you use one of the clearly marked shared-channel throttles.

But if you are running a local where you will be switching a lot and need instant response, you select one of the 5 dedicated channel throttles.

Is this the kind of info you were looking for?

[jwar]

Joe.... Could you elaborate on the radio aspect. Are some better then others, not dropping control, user friendly, will radio work in a Screen plaster sided helix with the tranmitter several feet away, ect.
Last year I was going to go with CVP, but other family matters curtailed that. About to bite the bullet in a month or so.. Kind of like the two cab CVP, My Yards are over one another with drill tracks on opposite ends, and the radio for wondering around with. Comparing prices for three cabs, dont sound too bad.

Thanks in advance Joe...You are a touch of class....John

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by aluesch
Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

One thing that appears really well thought out about the Zimo system is it's essentially a PC designed to do DCC.

This means updating your system will involve simply downloading software upgrades. Someone comes out with a killer new feature that makes the other guys have to redesign their hardware -- not Zimo. Once they update the system software, you can get the new feature without having buy any new hardware.

It also means a Zimo system will generally cost more than the other systems (think of the cost of a nice PC and you will get the idea).

But as they say, you get what you pay for.

Darn clever idea for a DCC system to make it this way -- it makes for an almost infinitely flexible system. [swg]

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockythegoat

Bob: I agree with your comment above and also about obsolence. What I was thinking would be helpful is just a one liner about the system. Such as:

ABC Pro System = Updates? - Yes; Software-User. Something along those lines.

Len

Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

[tstage]

Thanks, Joe. BTW, thank you for the write up you gave on the NCE system back in early December. That review was pretty much instrumental in my deciding on upgrading from my Bachmann EZ-Command to the PowerCab - particularly the part about it being "intuitively" put together. I was also glad to see TTE give it an enthusiastic initial review on their web site. Now, if it will just come in the mail...[sigh]...

Tom

[jfugate]

Tom:

I started looking at the Zimo system manual and developed some first impressions, then that's where I left it for the moment, thinking I'd get back to it later.

First impression: overwhelming. The system is powerful -- looks to do everything including clean the kitchen sink. But like many European-based systems, the interface mindset is more complex than I would like to see.

Zimo fails my "can I figure out where to start by just looking at the handheld" test, which means I will need to pour over the manual for quite a while to be able to "think Zimo".

I'll get back to a more detailed review later, but for now the very friendly NCE user interface still rules supreme, I believe.

[tstage]

Joe,

I haven't panned back through the thread. Did you ever get around to reviewing the Zimo DCC system? I know that you were "ailing" when you were reading through the manual. Just curious...

Tom

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts


While I see the need for the type of info you are asking for if someone was able to gather all of the info together and put into a book it would make WAR & PEACE seem like a 4 page club newsletter.

Bob: I agree with your comment above and also about obsolence. What I was thinking would be helpful is just a one liner about the system. Such as:

ABC Pro System = Updates? - Yes; Software-User. Something along those lines.

The trying out all kinds of different systems advice, which I agree is good, can be tough for those of use who are "lone wolf modelers;" live in "the sticks;" or only have one predominant system in the area. For instance, all three of the above apply to me. The primary system in my area is Digitrax, but, to be honest, I don't like their "human interface" i.e. throttle. So, I rely heavily on what info I can glean from Forums and Manufacturer sites about other systems.

And another reason I wouldn't want a WAR AND PEACE-type of tome is out of respect for the time and effort guys on here would have to put in to complete the project. Tony's Trains and the MR tables are okay, just need a little bit of tweaking.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


You know, the notion occurs to me ... maybe a simple "review" of the systems via video is in order.

You know, visit a prominent layout that's running the given system and show it in operation. A vicarious "try out each system" sort of thing. Ideally, show the system being used for some common tasks, and ask each owner to list a couple of issues they've had with the system as well as what they like about it.

Could be done, and would probably be far more valuable than a huge document comparing the systems. Since I do how-to videos for the hobby anyhow, maybe this would be a popular video topic. Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years.

Perfect idea! I'd buy one!

Although, I agree the obsolesence issue is there.

Len

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years. [B)]

Heck, if the timing were bad, it could be obsolete in a week! You can just imagine after serveral months of video production out comes a new DVD and a week later Digitrax announces their next generation DCC command station! Mind you, since there seems to be a huge lag between new product announcement and actual availabilty, so may be DVD obsolecence would not be a problem. [:D]

[jfugate]

You know, the notion occurs to me ... maybe a simple "review" of the systems via video is in order.

You know, visit a prominent layout that's running the given system and show it in operation. A vicarious "try out each system" sort of thing. Ideally, show the system being used for some common tasks, and ask each owner to list a couple of issues they've had with the system as well as what they like about it.

Could be done, and would probably be far more valuable than a huge document comparing the systems. Since I do how-to videos for the hobby anyhow, maybe this would be a popular video topic. Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years. [B)]

[simon1966]

There are 10 or more DCC manufacturers, each offering more than one model, so I would guess there are about 25-30 different command stations on the market. Add in all the extra goodies like throttle options and Bob is right this turns into a huge task.

It is even greater when it comes to decoders. These are being introduced all the time and new locomotives are coming out all the time, so an up to date database of decoder comparison and installation examples would be a large undertaking for anyone. I think that the decoder makers would do themselves a huge favor if more of them kept instalation examples up to date on their own web sites.

[cmrproducts]

Len

While I see the need for the type of info you are asking for if someone was able to gather all of the info together and put into a book it would make WAR & PEACE seem like a 4 page club newsletter.

The DCC manufacturers are making changes daily and any info you would gather would be so out of date by the time you had it published it would not be relevant.

Now putting this on an internet site would also be just about the same way. The info still has to be written out and put on the site, so going back and editing it on a daily basis to keep it current would be a business in itself.

The best advice I can give you is to try and find local modelers that have systems up and running in your area. This way you can go over there and get some hands-on experience! This is the real teacher. Talk is mostly opinion and hype. But when you are actually operating a layout the BS stops right there!

This is what I do with my home layout. If someone is interested in seeing and operating a DCC layout first hand I invite them to come over and see one in action. Now I usually ask them to show up on a Thursday night OPs session. They can see the layout in operation with many operators and if we have problems that can also see that first hand.

Running a layout with only one or two people will not usually show system problems. It is only when you get a number of different experienced operators together; that you can then find out what happens when the operator begins pushing buttons the wrong way. How long it takes the owner to get things back up and running. The owner can also show you the easy way of acquiring an engine, making up of consists (MUing) and programming.

They have learned short cuts to doing all sorts of things on the layout and reading a book or a BLOG will really never be able to show you.

Just one persons opinion!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


I'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review. That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review.

Joe/Jeff:

In addition to what is on the System Comparison Table on Tony's Trains website, info I would find valuable:

1. List all systems available with pricing.

2. What will be needed to get to 5 amps capacity. I personally don't feel 2A is enough for anyone but a 4x8-er (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) and 10A appears to be for the large pike, as opposed to a medium (12 x 15) layout. IF THIS ASSUMPTION IS WRONG, please feel free to correct. I realize this can vary with double-heading, stationary decoders, etc.

3. Difference in decoder models / capabilities.

4. What decoders are available as "drop ins / plug ins" and for which models.

5. How much reading of the manual is needed to accomplish a task. Such as: Consisting; Advanced Consisting; Adding an engine; Deleting an engine; etc.

6. Support stationary decoders? If so, how may items can be added to a decoder and/or function.

7. Type of throttle control. (Slide, pushbutton, wheel, rotary knob).

8. Updating ease and how. (Software by owner; Software by Manuf; Chip by owner, etc)

9. Support sound?

10. How easy to expand. Amps; Throttles;

11. When would a booster be needed?

12. How long of a wire run is recommended for the various buses?

I appreciate the effort you have put into this topic and the fact that you guys are willing to tackle this. Thank you!

Len