jfugate wrote: cwclark wrote:that's what i meant..i can take throttles over to my friends house to run on their DCC systems. One of my RR buds has more tracks and trains than he has throttles for...And this is one very good reason to go with a specific system over any other -- if all your train buddies have a specific system. Not only does this make it easy to share throttles, but it also means there's probably local help on a problem when you need it.
cwclark wrote:that's what i meant..i can take throttles over to my friends house to run on their DCC systems. One of my RR buds has more tracks and trains than he has throttles for...
And this is one very good reason to go with a specific system over any other -- if all your train buddies have a specific system.
Not only does this make it easy to share throttles, but it also means there's probably local help on a problem when you need it.
The main reason why I selected Digitrax also, as the LHS sells only Digitrax and all the guys here are using the same DCC system. So the theory of strength in numbers rings true with my learning curve.
I just installed my DCC system a few months back, and Kim at Train Buddy is only a short phone call or a 10 minute drive away when I need quick hands on assistance or have a quick question.
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
One of the more significant issues I have with Digitrax is the way it handles consisting.
Digitrax defaults to command station consists, and the only way you can change this is to go into the command station settings and change how consisting is done to decoder-based consists.
If you do this, you will lose the ability to do nested consists, which is a real bummer. NCE's consisting is by far the most flexible and user-friendly, allowing you to do either decoder-based or command-station based consists that you reference by the 4-digit loco number. You can freely nest consists inside each other. All-in-all, very easy and powerful.
EasyDCC, on the other hand, will complain if you try to nest consists, although it also lets you freely make either decoder-based or command station-based consists.
Lenz puts limits on command-station based consists, only allowing two such locos in a consist. Lenz mainly does decoder-based consisting (which is the only kind of consisting allowed in their Set 90).
And then we have Digitrax, which won't allow you to mix consisting types together, defaults to command-station consisting (which causes more command traffic to the rails, and slows down throttle response if you have very many consists). You can't change to decoder-based consisting (which gives much better throttle response when you have lots of consists) without altering a command station setting -- and when you go to decoder-based consisting, Digitrax loses the ability to nest consists.
I have found that with EasyDCC, Lenz, and Digitrax I can circumvent the consisting limitations by learning how to program CV19 directly myself. But now I have to become an expert on CV19 programming (not an onerous task, but still, I have to get under the hood because of the artifical limits of these systems) -- and now I have to work with addressing loco lashups using consist numbers from 1-99.
With NCE, I can do all I want to do with consisting and never think once about CV19. I just grab the consist very naturally by using the 4-digit loco number. And to top it off, with NCE whichever end of the loco lashup I address, that becomes the front of the lashup! All very user-friendly and natural.
I have to admit that even to me this is just plain wierd: My only complaint about Digitrax is not operational! It is the blankety-blank battery covers on the DT400 and UT4 throttles, I dont know about others. I have lost the cover on the UT4 and the one on the DT400 just recently broke off one side of the little clip, so it can be bumped off. So far I haven't lost it, but based on the other one I don't think it will be long, eh? Yes there is a learning curveto any DCC system, and I was unfortunate enough to get in a situation at a public meet where I didn't know how to undo a consist that we made up on the fly. I didn't realize that the loco on the right throttle was the lead unit when I tried to consist two others with the left throttle on the 400, and when we tried to move them my switcher moved too! In reverse, yet! How embarrassing, then I couldn't undo it. Well, nothing damaged, and another lesson learned, which sounds just like real life! jc5729 John Colley, Port Townsend, WA
Bob Hayes wrote: Crandell,What is SEB?And, do you really just flip a switch and have power to your track? For that matter, with the exception of Digitrax, what has to be done with the other systems to get power to the locomotive in order to run it?...Bob Hayes
Crandell,
What is SEB?
And, do you really just flip a switch and have power to your track? For that matter, with the exception of Digitrax, what has to be done with the other systems to get power to the locomotive in order to run it?...
Bob Hayes
Hi, Bob. The SEB is the old Super Empire Builder from Digitrax. It uses the DB 150 as the base station. When I flick the tiny power toggle up to "on", the system powers up and the locomotives previously engaged on the throttles (it comes with one DT 400, and I purchased a second so that my brothers and nephew could join the fun now and then) are there to get moving if I choose. To change any acquisition, simple depress the encoder for two seconds, the loco address in the display flashes, and I can turn the encoder to scroll down the stack for a new loco. Click the encoder, and I have the new loco running.
When I power up with the toggle, there is no Y+ because I do not shut down the power to the track when I leave the layout...I just flip the same toggle, or nowadays press the power switch on a surge protector to save wear and tear on the toggle.
-Crandell
Bob,
With a NCE system there is no power on/off step necessary. Plug the unit in and its on and ready to go. When wiring your layout room and an outlet that is controlled by a light switch. Simply turn on the switch and your good to go.
Consisting on a NCE is much easier than on a Digitrax. On a ProCab there is a section with 4 buttons marked "Consist". The buttons are 'setup' 'clear' 'add' 'delete'.
To make a consist simply press 'setup' The display will know prompt you and walk you through making a consist. The preferred consisting method with NCE is Advanced consisting, not universal like Digitrax. Select a consist # or let the command station assign one. Enter the address of the lead loco, enter its direction, it will now prompt you for the rear loco address and its direction. Continue adding loco addresses and directions until you're done. After entering the last loco press 'enter' and you exiting the consist sub-routine.
To add a loco to an existing consist simply press the 'add' button. Select the consist and add the loco address by following the screen prompts. It is a similar process to delete a loco from a consist.
The clear the entire consist simply press 'clear' and enter the consist #. All loco assign to that consist will now be released and will operate independently.
IMO NCE is much easier to consist on than Digitrax. I don't need to remember to have the consist on the right throttle and the loco to consist on the left. I don't have to try see if the little direction triangle is point forward or reverse, NCE's screen says "DIR OF THIS LOCO: F or R" If it says FWD and I want REV I simply press the direction button to change it.
One other thing, I'll take exception to your statement about hooking up your Super Chief to a JMRI is a snap. To do that don;t you need an additional piece of hardware between the command station of the PC? NCE PHP come with a RS232 port built-in. Simple connect with a serial cable and your done.
jktrains
And, do you really just flip a switch and have power to your track? For that matter, with the exception of Digitrax, what has to be done with the other systems to get power to the locomotive in order to run it?
In the case of Digitrax, I have to press the power button, then press the "Y+" button which applies power. If the loco number displayed on the throttle is the one I want to run, I just crank it up & off it goes. If not, then press the "Sel Loco" button, enter the number of the locomotive, press the "Sel Loco" button again and I'm done. If the headlights aren't on, I press the light button, if the sound isn't on, I just press F8. To MU two or more locos, I just select the first one in the right throttle, select the second one in the left throttle, hit the MU button & "+", and it's done. If I want to add another loco, just select it in the left throttle, hit MU & "+", and it's added. To break up a consist, select the loco you want to remove in the left throttle, hit MU & "-". Nice a simple, and once you do it a couple of times, it becomes second nature. How does one MU locos in NCE or EZ DCC? To turn off power, press the power button, the "-" button and power is off. One of the nice things I've found is I can check for shorts at power on and turn the power off just by hitting the "-" button. Don't have to wait for the light bulbs to light up
As to why I bought Digitrax, I was at the 2000 NMRA convention in San Jose and ran into Loy Spurlock, whom I knew from Train Mountain. and he convinced me to buy a Chief system which has been up graded to Super Chief with the addition of a DT400, which made programming locos much easier(never did get the hang of it with the DT100). Also, interfacing with JMRI is a snap.
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: tschwarz wrote: jfugate wrote:Greg:EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade. My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. Joe, The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software. How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting. I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer.Just my humble $.02 worth.TomBear in mind that the post you quoted was written in November, 2005!
tschwarz wrote: jfugate wrote:Greg:EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade. My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. Joe, The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software. How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting. I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer.Just my humble $.02 worth.Tom
jfugate wrote:Greg:EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade. My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system.
Joe,
The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software. How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting. I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer.
Just my humble $.02 worth.
Tom
Bear in mind that the post you quoted was written in November, 2005!
Yes, EasyDCC has realized their stance on decoder consisting was dated and have reversed their position in their manual and latest firmware upgrade (released in the spring of 2007) to now "bless" decoder consisting as the recommended approach.
However, EasyDCC uses 1-99 for decoder consist numbers, unlike NCE which uses the loco number for referencing consists -- much nicer. The latest firmware for NCE creates an internal 1-99 decoder consist number, but lets you reference the consist by a 4 digit loco number. If that isn't more user friendly, I don't know what is.
EasyDCC's improvements are moving in the right direction, but are still behind NCE when it comes to ease-of-use. On top of that, EasyDCC's throttle prices ($220 for a wireless display throttle) are much more than the street prices for NCE wireless display throttles ($190). So NCE is also cheaper than EasyDCC when it comes to throttles.
Finally, EasyDCC's stationary powerpack form factor for the command station programming keypad is becoming quite dated (a problem it shares with the Digitrax Zephyr). With programming on the main widely available now in even cheap fleet-level decoders, having a mobile command station keypad like NCE, Lenz, and the Digitrax DT400 leverages the power of DCC and gives you more options for speed matching locos, running helpers, changing sound settings on-the-fly and so on.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
rockythegoat wrote:QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugateI'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review. That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review.3. Difference in decoder models / capabilities.4. What decoders are available as "drop ins / plug ins" and for which models.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugateI'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review. That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review.
Remember that decoders are system independent. This could be a whole seperate subject matter as there are so many drop-in/plug-in models available and so many decoder models and capabilities.
Modeling the Pittsburgh Division of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad from Glenwood Yard to New Castle Yard following the old P&W Mainline.
Visit my website at: http://www.baltimoreandohiorr.com
Chuck, with full deference, what you describe above is bizarre to me. Perhaps there are differences between our two systems that I am not aware of, but my SEB is simply turn on, dial up the loco I want, click the encoder, and run the train. If I want bell, hit F1, and so on. What's all this power on and off, loco y or n?
Sounds to me like you need to set up your throttle or base station.
cwclark wrote: I installed the Digitrax Super Chief system and it has it's pros and cons. I purchased it because everyone in my area uses the Digitrax system and if i want to run my trains on their layouts or vice versa, I was forced to buy the digitrax system because if I bought a different system I couldn't run trains on other layouts using my equipment. That was my biggest concern and deciding factor when choosing a DCC system.
I installed the Digitrax Super Chief system and it has it's pros and cons. I purchased it because everyone in my area uses the Digitrax system and if i want to run my trains on their layouts or vice versa, I was forced to buy the digitrax system because if I bought a different system I couldn't run trains on other layouts using my equipment. That was my biggest concern and deciding factor when choosing a DCC system.
Emphasis added.
cwclark,
Please explain the statement above about have you had to buy a Digitrax system because if you didn't you couldn't run your trains on other layouts. Did you mean that you bought Digitrax so you had a throttle to take and use at other Digitrax layouts and vice versa?
Because of the NMRA standards for DCC you should be able to run any decoder equipped loco on any DCC system regardless of the manufacturer of the decoder. Granted, with some systems you may not have access to all the functions the decoder offers, but the loco should run.
On30Shay wrote:Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT
It's not quite that easy. There are other very good systems out there. I have used many system from Digitrax, NCE, EasyDCC, MRC and so on and have found good and bad points with all of them. The one thing I don't like with Digitrax is having to constantly plug in to select a different locomotive. I am not here to flame on system over the other I think what Joe is talking about is a good idea and I think he will compare all of the systems without bias.
I believe if each of use describe how we like our individual DCC systems can greatly help others make a choice when purchasing a DCC system.
The digitrax system is good in the respect that I can run up to 120 locomotive addresses at one time and there are enough function addresses to run other equipment if I so incline to do so. I also like to run my equipment with 4 digit addresses which also is a positive feature with digitrax.
The one thing I don't particularly like about Digitrax is that there are too many commands that have to be entered onto the keypad to make things work. For example: Just to run a locomotive, I have to first turn on the power button, then enter the +Y command, then select a locomotive, then enter the number of the locomotive on the key pad, then enter select locomotive again, then hit all the buttons to turn on or turn off any locomotive light functions before I can turn on the knob for speed control. Shutting it down is just as involved. I believe the digitrax system could come up with a way to minumize all that "button pushing." But besides that and once you've gotton over the shock of how technical it is to set up, it's a well build and fun system for running a DCC layout.
gp30 wrote: THanks Joe been reading bout dcc and this helped greatlyAugust
THanks Joe been reading bout dcc and this helped greatly
August
Always good to hear a fellow modeler has been helped. If you're into reading about DCC, here's a thread over on my personal web site that's got lots of friendly debate over systems ... check out DCC University.
The above discussion started out as some questions about MRC DCC and morphed into a long-running discussion about the pros and cons of the various DCC systems. It's now some 24 pages long and shows little signs of slowing down.
Just reread this series of posts:
I own and have used digitrax systems for 5 years. I just purchased the DT400 throttle and its ease of use increased substantially compared to earlier throttles. I do agree that digitrax is not very intuitive in its use, the manual is a definite read, but after that it seems very easy. I have only had to have one throttle worked on (DT300) after extended use, and for the 25 dollar fee which included the shipping, I found their customer service to be excellent (what else in your house can you get fixed for 25 dollars and someone else do the work).
jwils1 wrote: We don't hear a lot about Lenz on this forum. It's mostly Digitrax and NCE that are discussed. Although there has been some good info on Lenz on this thread...
We don't hear a lot about Lenz on this forum. It's mostly Digitrax and NCE that are discussed. Although there has been some good info on Lenz on this thread...
I agree,
I too have the Lenz set 100 along with several modules and accessory decoders and mainly use ESU decoders based on specs. The system is user friendly and the throttles are not cluttered, their complete package is extremely well engineered, solid and attractive as are their accessory modules and decoders for automation, monitoring and control. To prove my point, Lenz has not had the need for any major system design overhauls or appearance modification over the years, only firmware upgrades and the addition of accessory devices, although I would like to see them release a throttle like Roco's New Multimaus which is in fact compatible with the lenz. True, there is a bit of a learning curve just like any other high-tech device including your tv remote, but that's all part of the game.
Lenz has been involved with DCC since 1988 with its first system released which is the basis for today's DCC technology and in 1991 released the first Digital Plus System. Also, Lenz was an active contributor to the development of the NMRA's DCC Standards which allowed other companies to come into existence. In the end, there is no better or worse system, it just depends on your requirements. Most mid-range high-end systems today offer comparable features hence the DCC standards and It really becomes a personal preference based on ergonomics; ease of use, appearance, proprietary features and of course your budget.
Another rarely mentioned manufacturer is Zimo. They have been around since 1979 which is longer than any of the others Digital system manufacturer and actually are the true Pioneers to what we now call DCC but it also accommodates the Marklin Motorola Protocol. I had the MX1 and with and MX2 throttle. Now that's a system that requires a steep learning curve but it also has the most advanced features and capabilities of any system available on the market today but with system and accessory price tags to mach which is why I sold it.
Also important to note, I equally owned the Digitrax Big Boy System back in 1994-95 which was the second system Digitrax developed as a follow-up to their Initial challenger set. Just my
This is my current System which is still being completed.
Previously owned Zimo Start Set.
Roco's New Multimaus.
I have had the MRC Prodigy advance for 2 half years.I almost bought the digitrax Zephry but opted for prodigy.I also used a friends digitrax and found it to be cumbersomb and unresponsive and limited.now maybe it wasnt set up right or i dont know what Im talking about,but i have another friend who sold his digitrax and went with prodigy.
Prodigy advanced good things
hand held lets you do everything from throw turnouts to program on main to read CV s and program Cvs.lets you switch locos with a button push.
has all the function buttons
does all the extras like consisting and criuse control
Progigy bad things
need more power
wireless would be easier
no computer iterface
Tho I like the PA I may switch to something else probly NCE .
jwils1 wrote: They say that the LH90 is a great throttle (knob control) for just running trains and switching but I haven't tried it as I wanted wireless for my second throttle.
They say that the LH90 is a great throttle (knob control) for just running trains and switching but I haven't tried it as I wanted wireless for my second throttle.
I have a Set 100 and LH90 throttle and can say it is very good for running and switching, my 7yr old nephew handles all the buttons and knob with ease.
Ken.
Jerry:
Hey, thanks for your wonderful post on the Lenz system. Glad to see their system get some "air time". I had a Lenz system for 7 years and it served me well. And my best experiences with decoder warranties have been from Lenz, so they stand behind their stuff with a passion.
By the way, for those who are willing to wade through some rather long text posts, there's some really meaty discussions over on my web site at the moment about the various DCC systems and their pros and cons from the perspective of owners of these systems who are willing to bare all about their systems -- the good, bad, and the ugly.
To quote Jerry (who posted the nice Lenz post above), who posted on the discussion over there:
"I feel like I'm attending DCC System University on this thread. This is powerful and very useful stuff. Thanks."
If you'd like to go read this "DCC University thread" as Jerry calls it, just click here.
We don't hear a lot about Lenz on this forum. It's mostly Digitrax and NCE that are discussed. Although there has been some good info on Lenz on this thread.
I use the Lenz Set 100 (LH100 throttle) and it's a terrific system for me. As far as this forum goes, I think its DCC's best kept secret. Much of this thread has been about intuitive throttles and consisting. I'd like to discuss these two points, plus a couple of others.
I think too much is being stressed about the need to just pick up a throttle and figure out what to do without the manual. This may be important to Joe for his operation with many operators (apparently they're not all the same guys every time). But for the typical modeler, operating alone, or maybe with one other person, this is not a very big deal.
Common tasks that you do frequently, and some that you do just occasionally, are just not that hard to remember on the Lenz LH100. This is a wonderful throttle and very easy to use. Fairly large buttons that are easy to use and a nice informative display. It has push button speed control but I've learned to really like that.
Here are the three Lenz throttles.
On the LH100 consisting is a snap. Once a loco is part of a consist the address is preceded by the letter "m" instead of "E" so you can always tell if a loco is part of a consist. You can operate speed and direction from any of the loco addresses or the consist address. You can quickly toggle with one key to any of the locos to operate its light and sound functions. And it's very easy to delete any of the locos.
For me, this works great as I have a couple of sound box cars that I run with some of my non-sound locos. I simply consist the box car to the loco (or locos), turn on the light of the lead loco and then run the speed and direction of the consist from the box car address, with all of the sound functions available for use.
If you forget which locos are in a consist, simply call up the consist address, or any loco in the consist, then with one key toggle thru the list of all locos that are included.
To run the consist in the other direction, just turn off one headlight and turn on the other. Of course your forward movement will now show as reverse in your display but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to remember that.
They say that the LH90 is a great throttle (knob control) for just running trains and switching but I haven't tried it as I wanted wireless for my second throttle. So I use the cordless phone option which really works well, and its shape is very comfortable to hold.
CVP also makes an excellent wireless, radio throttle for Lenz systems but it's a bit expensive. But with that you can have knob control which many prefer.
I really do think Lenz is a great system, fully upgradeable, good support and 10 year warranty. So, what do I not like about it:
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Yes, we will really need to keep an eye on the MRC developments, since if they add wireless and a computer interface, that will put their system(s) well into the ranks of the big four (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC) systems.
Now if MRC could just get their decoder issues solved ... their decoders tend to fail quickly, unfortunately. But their DCC systems seem to be as well built as any, just kind of trainset/4x8 layout level in their feature set.
MRC Prodigy
I just got one for Christmas, and it will be a while before I get it up and running, but I wanted to add some information.
I've been considering returning it for the NCE Powercab, particularly due to a few of the shortcomings of the system. However, I like the knob instead of the dial, and I like the information that's presented on the screen versus the NCE.
The two major issues that I felt the system have are being addressed. The wireless throttles are being released soon, and I spoke to MRC and they said they also have a computer interface in the works.
So the end result for me is that I'm going to keep the MRC for now. I really like the design of the controllers, and it sounds like they are putting together a comprehensive system.
Randy
Thanks to everyone for taking their time responding on this topic. For me it has been very informative and entertaining! It’s been 30 + years since I was involved in model railroading and am just now able to get back into it. Have things changed! Anyway I was leaning toward the MRC (had several MRC throttle packs….back in the day) but now I’m again undecided as this thread has really made me aware of the options available out there.
Thank you all!!!!
MO
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