nof wrote:Thank you Joe for a very interesting thread. I have spent the last days reading it.What drawbacks have I found? Well I don't know if I should blame Digitrax, the throttle or myself for the following two problems- Running more than two trains. I mostly am to slow changing the throttle to control another train when I need to stop or slow down.- Using the throttle to control my turn-outs. Sometimnes I have used the buttons for selecting a loco and forget to switch the throttle to controlling turnouts.The solution to these problem is to use JMRI to contol the turnouts and even some or all trains. I prefer running the trains with a throttle so I'm planning to buy an extra throttle.I have used the throttle to program my decoders but that is a lot of trouble compared to using Decoder Pro in JMRI. To program a speed table is much faster using the computer than using the throttle.
Thank you Joe for a very interesting thread. I have spent the last days reading it.
What drawbacks have I found? Well I don't know if I should blame Digitrax, the throttle or myself for the following two problems- Running more than two trains. I mostly am to slow changing the throttle to control another train when I need to stop or slow down.- Using the throttle to control my turn-outs. Sometimnes I have used the buttons for selecting a loco and forget to switch the throttle to controlling turnouts.
The solution to these problem is to use JMRI to contol the turnouts and even some or all trains. I prefer running the trains with a throttle so I'm planning to buy an extra throttle.
I have used the throttle to program my decoders but that is a lot of trouble compared to using Decoder Pro in JMRI. To program a speed table is much faster using the computer than using the throttle.
Nils:
You're welcome! However, this thread is what it is because many others with great insights have posted to it.
I heartily agree with your comments about JMRI and DecoderPro. Once I started using DecoderPro to program decoders, I won't do it any other way. The "decoder discover" feature on the programming track is very helpful, and being able to program decoders by pointing and clicking with a mouse is far easier. It's especially helpful with today's complex sound decoders that have over 100 CVs to set! With DecoderPro I just set the features I want and I never have to remember what CV does what.
Because of my day job managing web developers, I'm constantly thinking in terms of making a user interface (UI) that doesn't need a manual. My head's in this space most of the time, so Digitrax's UI grates on me, as does Lenz's UI -- but I understand these are usable systems by most people -- especially once you get used to them. And neither system is short on features, especially Digitrax with its robust LocoNet protocol.
I'm liking my new NCE system and am working out the wireless reception issues such that the system's quite usable. I believe the remaining NCE wireless issues are mostly software, and my money's on rev 3 NCE wireless being more rock-solid than the current rev 2 wireless. I think it's only a matter of time before NCE gets this issue licked completely, and I wouldn't doubt it if there's something in their labs already that improves things even more.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
nof wrote:What drawbacks have I found? Well I don't know if I should blame Digitrax, the throttle or myself for the following two problems- Running more than two trains. I mostly am to slow changing the throttle to control another train when I need to stop or slow down.
What drawbacks have I found? Well I don't know if I should blame Digitrax, the throttle or myself for the following two problems- Running more than two trains. I mostly am to slow changing the throttle to control another train when I need to stop or slow down.
Nils,
There's nothing wrong with you. You're as normal as the rest of us. Any more than 2 locomotives at a time and my brain is tapped out.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
When I decided to start building a model railroad a year ago (October 2006) I found out that the only reasonable way to go was DCC if you want to run several trains and have a relatively easy wiring of the layout. I talked to a couple of other modelrailroaders that mentioned Lenz and Digitrax as the two systems mostly used here (Sweden). I also found out that Atlas seems to market the Lenz system with their own brand.
I decided to buy Digitrax Super Chief from the beginning because I didn't want to spend money on upgrades when I eventually will build a bigger layout. If I then had known about this forum I will probably have had a much harder decision to do. I have now used my Digitrax for seven months.
To tell the truth I didn't even thought of connecting and trying out anything without reading the manual. IMHO reading the manual is part of the fun with a new 'toy' and the manual instructed me to do everything correct the first time.
When it comes to consisting I think Digitrax solution is quite logical. Start with selecting the lead engine on the right throttle, run it to where you want to build your consist. Select another engine on your left throttle and run it to the first so they are coupled together and press the 'MU' and the '+' buttons. I think this is quite clear and easy. You must run the locos to the same spot and have them coupled regardless if you consist them this or the other way. This object - action sequence is also consistent with all (i think) other actions you do, you select a loco and then the speed, select a turn-out and then throw it.
If you're curious how our first op session went with NCE wireless, here's my op session report for the session.
Thanks to CSX Robert for the quick reply !
Martin
Québec City
Martin4 wrote:Also, is it possible to wire in more than one additional throttles ? MartinQuébec City
Martin,
Only if you purchase the NCE Smart Booster. The Smart Booster (SB3) increases the total number of additional throttles you can use with the Power Cab from one to three, as well as increase the maximum output from 1.7VA to 3VA.
pilot wrote:How many wireless throttles can you have with Digitrax?
It depends on what system you're using. The Zephyr can handle 10, but I'm not sure about the others.
From the information I got in the previous discussion pages I am very interested in the NCE Power Cab system but the NCE site says nothing about reversing sections. How is that handled ?
Also, is it possible to wire in more than one additional throttles ?
FIRST OP SESSION USING NCE WIRELESS
As promised, here's a summary of the results of my first op session with NCE wireless.
I bought a Lenz system in late 1993 to use on my new Siskiyou Line layout which was shown at the 1994 National in Portland, OR. In 1997 we started official monthly op sessions on the layout using the Lenz system. By 2000, the now 7-year old Lenz system was in need of some major upgrades -- but I wanted wireless and EasyDCC had the best wireless offering at the time, so I went with EasyDCC and have been using it with great success since 2000.However, the system is now obsolete and some of the throttles were misbehaving so I priced a complete overhaul and upgrade. I found I could move to wireless NCE (which had some great features I wanted) for several hundred less, so I sold my EasyDCC system and moved to NCE. This last Saturday, September 8th, was the first op session with NCE.In my layout room, I found I could get good wireless reception (15 foot radius max) with one RB02 and one RPT1. My existing operators have been used to the EasyDCC wireless, which has rock solid reception and performance -- you could run trains and not think twice about the fact you were running wireless.We found out that is not the case with NCE's wireless. It is what I would call quite "finicky". You cannot just "punch the buttons" like we did with the EasyDCC wireless throttles. You have to slow down and be extremely deliberate with each and every key press.
SUMMARY
In short, the first op session experience with NCE wireless was so-so. It's clear you need to train your operators to be slow and deliberate because of NCE's finicky nature, which means you are more aware of "model railroading" thoughts with NCE wireless as compared to EasyDCC's wireless system.Am I sorry I went with NCE instead of staying with EasyDCC? No, but I am a bit disappointed at how less-than-stellar NCE's wireless operation was the first time out. I'm hoping the tweaks and new operator habits will yield more consistent performance in future op sessions.
You can get more details here of this op session's experiences using NCE on my personal web site.
tstage wrote:There's still much discussion as to whether the squeal is really good for the motor or not.
It MAY not be bad, but it certainly isn't good.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
pilot wrote:Also, keep in mind, if you have DC locos, you can PARK it anywhere on the layout while running your DCC locos (and vice versa). So there's more advantage than you might think.
Also, keep in mind, if you have DC locos, you can PARK it anywhere on the layout while running your DCC locos (and vice versa). So there's more advantage than you might think.
Doug,
Actually...it's probably better to remove any surplus DC-only locomotives that you have on your layout while running DCC - especially if they will remain idle or static. The only way to avoid that is to park your DC locomotives on an electrically isolated section of track that you can turn off and on, so that you don't have to subject yourself to the "squealing pig" sound associated with DC locomotives run on DCC. There's still much discussion as to whether the squeal is really good for the motor or not.
It would be more correct to say you only have one THROTTLE for running DC locos under DCC. You can consist several DC locos, for instance, (I also have steep grades) and that is fairly common for me to do. You COULD run more than one DC loco seperately as well, but it is tricky.
I'd love to have all my DC locos converted to DCC, but N scale small steam is very hard to do. Not impossible, but I havent completely figured out how, yet. And there really are NO N scale small steam available out of the box NOW (Atlas has announced their Shay and are taking orders). I have several small N scale steam that I have had converted. I am slowly getting there. I have one with sound! It's all possible with enough time and money....
I've been told that it's not practical or advisable to run both DC and DCC locos on a layout together. Usually by someone at a hobby store that either has never run DCC locos and in one case by someone who himself in his hobby store is set up to run both!! After I pointed that out to him he said yes, but we have to because we have both DC and DCC locos. Well I'll be darned....
With HO they have a point, but with N scale DCC is more limited. Anyway, it's possible to do what I'm doing. I know cause I'm doing it!!!
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
I have a reversing loop wired DCC (and DC but more on that later). With DCC wiring my DCC locos work perfectly. But when the DCC loco goes through any DC loco on the rest of the track reverses direction! So when you take a DCC loco through the loop, you have to stop all DC locos. There is a workaround for this but I havent done it.
To run my DC locos (running under DCC) through my reversing loop I just wired the reversing loop up the same way you wire it up for DC and run it the same way. Interestingly and DCC loco running on the main does NOT reverse when I reverse the main!
As for Lenz being able to run DC locos with their DCC system. You do seem to be correct. I see analog operation being listed as a feature on Lenz' website. That is NEW information for me. Previously I thought only Bachmann and Digitrax did analog locos. (I run small N scale steam).
JKTrains:
I'm not saying that duplex radio will allow the UT4 to control turnouts, but that with a major change in their product offering, maybe they will offer a completely redesigned UT4, which IMO is what they really need to do.
OK, I've asked this before and it wasn't really addressed. I've used a UT4 in the past and just looked at one on the Digitrax website. Could someone explain to me how Digitrax offering a duplex radio system will allowa UT4 to control turnouts as suggested by jwils1. UT4 has the following controls:
4 selector dial to select a loco number.
8 pushbuttons that control
F0 - F12Sel/ShiftDISP when used with the shift buttonSteal when used with the shift button
F0 - F12
Sel/Shift
DISP when used with the shift button
Steal when used with the shift button
The only button that doesn't have 2 functions assigned to it is F0.
Also, would this mean that to be able to use a UT4 to control turnouts you would need to purchase the duplex system?
pilot wrote: BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
It's going to be intersting to see how the MRC radio really works. The system compares very favorably with NCE in other respects so if their radio is better it's going to be a big plus for them. They also plan to have a computer interface in the Spring of 08. One thing they don't yet have is a smaller, engineer's throttle (maybe they have announced it but I haven't heard of it). Many prefer to run their trains with an engineer's throttle rather then lug a larger unit around the layout.
As far as engineer's throttles go, I prefer NCE's over Digitrax's because I operate turnouts from my throttle and the Digitrax UT4's don't allow this. Maybe when they come out with a duplex system they will offer other improvements as well, including this in their smaller throttles? Of course, I think that the Lenz engineer's throttle tops them all as you can do everything with it, including programming and consisting.
For performance, the CVP radio throttles really are excellent, but a bit expensive. They operate turnouts but no progamming.
Pilot,
An important question - Do you have any reverse loops on you current DC controlled layout? You state that you want to be able to run DC locos and DCC. If you have a reversing section that will cause you some problems. I've seen first hand what happens to a DC loco running on DCC that goes through a reverse loop with an auto-reverser. When it hits the gap it will instantly reverse direction at whatever speed you were running. Imagine running your train on the mainline and then suddenly throwing the direction switch. That's what happens. NOt good for your motors.
jktrains
You need a full duplex wireless throttle to do full featured programming with your wireless throttle. Also I have been told that if you need to aquire a new loco with the Digitrax wireless you have to plug back in. I used to say that if you shorted on a turnout and it went off, then you would have to plug the Digitrax wireless back in, but someone told me no that is not the case. I dont own one so I really dont know.
I'd still like to know what exactly you CAN'T do with the Digitrax and other simplex throttles that you can with duplex. BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
I need DC over DCC (the ability to run analog locos over my DCC system) and in wireless it looks like Digitrax is all there is. So I think the Zephyr will do. I can run 8 or so N scale locos on my Bachmann 1 amp, surely Digi will do the same or more. And Digi has wireless. And if Digi does come up with a duplex wireless it is likely to be compatible. Everything else is. Good for Digitrax, that is a BIG plus in my opinion.
steamnut wrote:I'm leaning toward starting with the NCE Power Cab system. There are still some issues that I don't understand:1. It seems that most folks have a throttle for every active train, and rarely use a single throttle to control more than one train. Is this just preference, or are there problems associated with using a single throttle to toggle between a couple of trains? The NCE web site claims that when RECALling another locomotive, the system "remembers" the speed and other characteristics of the recalled locomotive (or consist), but some posts here indicate that it is more wish than reality.
I'm leaning toward starting with the NCE Power Cab system. There are still some issues that I don't understand:
1. It seems that most folks have a throttle for every active train, and rarely use a single throttle to control more than one train. Is this just preference, or are there problems associated with using a single throttle to toggle between a couple of trains? The NCE web site claims that when RECALling another locomotive, the system "remembers" the speed and other characteristics of the recalled locomotive (or consist), but some posts here indicate that it is more wish than reality.
As I said earlier, the NCE Powerhouse Pro has a 6-locomotive recall stack and the Power Cab a 2-locomotive recall stack. The NCE throttles will remember the specific settings for all the locomotives in the recall stack.
2. My intention would be to have only one or two of the fully-featured throttles, and probably two or three of the more basic "engineer" or intermediate throttles. Is this approach feasible? (If not, then the total cost increases so dramatically as to make me again question moving to DCC.) Can one adjust momentum rates from the NCE "engineer" throttles?
I guess it depends what exactly you want to do with each throttle. You'll have at least one full-featured with either the Powerhouse Pro or the Power Cab. If you just want basic train operation capabilities, the CAB-04p or -04e will suffice just fine. You can also purchase a ProCab throttle and use it with the Power Cab as an extra throttle.
3. Specifically for the Power Cab, I want to also get an NCE intermediate throttle because even for my experimenting, I MUST have walk-around capability. I'm still confused about how to hand off loco control from the Power Cab to the intermediate throttle.
The additional throttle is given an "address" in order to work with the Power Cab. Once the address is set up, as long as the Power Cab is on, the additional throttle can acquire any locomotive you have on the layout. Because the CAB-04p or -04e throttles don't have LCD displays, you'll need to enter the locomotive addresses manually. If you want real walk-aroud capability with the Power Cab, you'll need to get the Smart Booster.
4. Despite helpful replies to an earlier post, I'm still confused about power districts. On a conservative basis of .5 amps / active loco, and allowing for double-heading (almost universal on my pike), the maximum power requirement for the whole layout is right at 5 amps. If I get a three-amp booster, can I restrict it to a section of the layout, or do I have to put 8 amps through the whole thing? On a similar note, can I continue to use the Power Cab for, say, the eastern terminus section, and (in the future) purchase a Pro Cab for the rest of the layout if the two sections are electrically isolated?5. Last but not least, one of the attractions for me of the NCE system is the stated ability to use DIN plugs (I HATE the phone-style plugs and for other stuff where they are plugged / unplugged much less frequently, have found them to become unreliable over time). Presumably there is nothing to stop me from installing my own DIN plugs at a cost of about 70 cents apiece, versus the NCE pre-wired ones at $10 (MSRP) apiece? And is the NCE "coilcord DIN" item 524-210 an adaptor plug that goes from the throttle to the DIN female?
5. Last but not least, one of the attractions for me of the NCE system is the stated ability to use DIN plugs (I HATE the phone-style plugs and for other stuff where they are plugged / unplugged much less frequently, have found them to become unreliable over time). Presumably there is nothing to stop me from installing my own DIN plugs at a cost of about 70 cents apiece, versus the NCE pre-wired ones at $10 (MSRP) apiece? And is the NCE "coilcord DIN" item 524-210 an adaptor plug that goes from the throttle to the DIN female?
I actually buy mine from Empire Northern Models. Tim charges $2.25 for both connectors and $0.25(?) for each foot of cable. If it's not listed, just e-mail Tim directly. He completely revamped his web site so not everything is posted.
Any answers or advice will be much appreciated. I realize that a lot of this would be answered if I could try this stuff out on someone else's layout, but unfortunately that is not an option.
Steamnut, if you want to read more about the Power Cab, CAB-04p throttle, and Smart Booster, click on the web link at the bottom of my post. On the left side of the page click Reveiws. This will take you to the links where the reviews are.
Hope that helps a little...
Loco wrote:Very interesting. And Joe, just watched your DVD’s... WoW. Got the whole set. Very cool. I've got the Digitrax Set-Up and am I hearing correctly that they do not have a wireless radio controller for two way communication?
Very interesting. And Joe, just watched your DVD’s... WoW. Got the whole set. Very cool.
I've got the Digitrax Set-Up and am I hearing correctly that they do not have a wireless radio controller for two way communication?
Loco:
I believe the only two-way duplex wireless system is NCE. All other wireless systems are one-way from the throttle to the command station. Digitrax's transponding feature allows the potential for two-way throttle communication, but that's not really been exploited yet with any products I'm aware of.
Most of the time, one-way communication is fine for basic throttles. However, NCE's duplex wireless communication allows the *command station* (dogbone throttle) itself to be wireless. While not absolutely necessary, a full-featured wireless throttle can be handy if you want various locations around your layout to have an engine hostler position, for instance. This allows the engine hostler to do making and breaking of consists using programming on the main, for example.
NCE also allows you to lock certain commands for given throttle addresses, so if you don't want some engine hostler to accidentally reprogram all the lighing functions on your locos, for example, you can lock out those commands.
Pilot:
A potentiometer is a knob with a notch marked on it and it has a definite start and stop on it. An encoder knob has no notch marked on it and it just rotates endlessly with no start and stop.
What the throttles with an encoder do is when you acquire a loco with them, wherever the encoder is turned to adapts and magically becomes the current speed setting of the newly acquired loco, and the loco does not change speed or direction -- the throttle adapted to its settings.
Since the encoder has no marks on it and rotates endlessly with no start or stop, your only reference is the current loco you're using. Turn the encoder down and the loco slows down. Turn the encoder up and the loco speeds up. With an encoder, it can be difficult to tell when you are at top speed or totally stopped, since there's no "top" or "bottom" to an encoder knob. It just keeps turning endlessly.
The potentiometer, however, has a mark on it and it only rotates most of one revolution. It has a definite bottom on it, which means the loco is stopped, and a definite top on it, which means the loco is at top speed. When acquiring a different loco, the acquired loco gets a new speed setting based on position of the potentiometer knob, regardless of how fast or slow the loco was moving before.
With NCE and an encoder throttle, you can also set it in what is known as "yard mode", where turning past "stopped" on the encoder knob makes the loco start going the other direction. This works great for yard switching, since you can control your yard switcher completely with just the encoder throttle knob. No need for a direction switch.
I find with a road loco, however, I prefer the potentiometer knob with a definite top and bottom. With the encoder knob set in yard mode on a road engine, you may go for a minute or two and not touch the throttle knob. With the encoder in yard mode, turning the knob either direction can make the loco go faster, depending on if you are going forward or reverse. I find I can forget which direction is faster on the encoder with a road engine, since I don't change speed that often compared to a yard switcher. If I'm running a helper engine, accidentally going faster when I meant to go slower can be disasterous -- I can throw half the train on the ground because I meant to go slower instead of faster. Pots are best for road engines, but the encoder on yard mode is great for yard switching.
Using your terminology, a potentiometer is FIXED, and an encoder is RELATIVE.