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FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

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Posted by jfugate on Friday, November 11, 2005 12:51 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

I was under the impression MR made the forum rules.


The rules I suggested are for this Forum Clinic that I'm hosting ... no need to get your panties in a wad, On30 -- as my daughter likes to tell me if I try to make a big deal out of something that's not. [swg]

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, November 11, 2005 12:25 PM
I was under the impression MR made the forum rules.

QUOTE: Originally posted by NZRMac

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT


Great suggestion about some RULES Joe.

I have Lenz
1. Local dealer (advise on the phone, invited to run my loco's )

2. Price, although I can import cheaper.

3. Expandability, I first bought the Lenz Compact (basic) I now have a the Set 100 which allows the Compact to plug in.

4. Warranty!! Who can beat 10 yrs.

5 Wireless, some people scoff at a cordless phone, but once you know which buttons to push it's obvious and easy.

6. Future proof, the hardware is there for bidirectional comms tec.

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup] Ken.
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Posted by jrbernier on Friday, November 11, 2005 12:19 PM
Joe,

The Palm Pilot throttle is a combination of a hardware cable/encoder that plugs into my Palm Pilot and some software that I had to download into it. Digitrax sell the H/W, and LocoPalm sells the software. It is not 'wireless' but it is very easy to use, and is great for consisting, etc...I keep my unit plugged into a port by the yard. I have taken my cable and my Palm Pilot with me an business trips, and I have a throttle if at a Digitrax powered layout.
Digitrax has a weak point - the throttles are not everything I want(though the DT400 series can do anything I want to do). I really think they need to invest some more time in the 'ergononic' aspect of the design. I ran trains this past summer with the Lenz 'wireless' using some cheap home wireless phones. I had written off this type of throttle when I first heard of it, but they really were pretty nice to use!

The inhibiting factor for a lot of modelers is the cost of decoders(I know they are down to about $15 each). These guys multiply $15 times 50 engines and all they can see is 'I could have bought 2 more BLI sound equipped engines'(and run them on straight DC)! New modelers who are serious about the hobby will 'decoderize' engines as they buy them(and most will be DCC Ready or have DCC and/or sound in them).

Jim Bernier

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by jjbmish on Friday, November 11, 2005 12:04 PM
I have to say that I am really enjoying this forum. I am currently looking at purchasing a DCC system for my home layout and have been doing tons of research. The systems I have looked at all have their pros and cons, but discussions like this one make it easier for me to limit the number of systems to consider. Hopefully by Christmas(??) I will be purchasing a system and let you know what I decided to purchase. Keep up the discussions because they are very helpful.

Thanks

John

p.s. the systems I am considering are the Digitrax Super Chief (hopefully radio controlled), the NCE system and the Lenz system (originally the 90, but now the 100)
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Posted by brothaslide on Friday, November 11, 2005 11:44 AM
As a side note. I found this on the DIY Network homepage. It's a series of articles on DCC from the "Workin' On the Railroad" series:

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/shows_dwrr/episode/0,2499,DIY_23302_40727,00.html
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Posted by jfugate on Friday, November 11, 2005 11:32 AM
Jim:

Your example of people raising hands at a meet isn't exactly a scientific poll, but it sounds like you are saying 60% of the modelers out there don't do DCC. If there are 200,000 model railroaders in the world and the 60% figure is anywhere in the ballpark that still means there are 80,000 DCC users worldwide. Of course, this pie is divided up across some 6-8 DCC system producers, which means each system maker probably has somewhere between a few thousand customers to 20,000+ customers.

And DCC is just over a decade old at this point. It typically takes about 20 years for a technology to really saturate the market. If as your unscientific poll suggests, we're nearing the halfway mark, then we're pretty much on track. That means in the next few years more people will own DCC than don't. That also means the day is coming in the next few years when everything you buy will come DCC equipped out of the box.

You say you love your palm pilot throttle but you don't elaborate. What system is it for, and does the software allow you to rearrange your throttle controls to your liking? If so, that could explain why you prefer it. Can you tell us more?

The whole throttle question is an interesting one. I see there's a throttle thread going now on this forum, and we'll get to throttle comparisons in this discussion too.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by jrbernier on Friday, November 11, 2005 8:48 AM
Joe,

Having been in DCC since about 1994, let me make some observations. I was at a Divisional Meet last night(about 50 folks). A 'show of hands' resulted in about 40% indicating that they have or were starting down the DCC road. The rest were split on 'I am interested' to the 'I do not understand it' or 'I have too many engines to convert'.
DCC is still stuck in the old PC hobbyist mentality. You sort of got to like to 'play' with technology, and DCC is just another 'hobby' in it's own. We have not come to the point where DCC is just another 'appliance' that I plug in and run trains with. PC's are just getting to the point where a 'end user' can get a PC at Best Buy or order it from Dell and just 'use' it. DCC is still 'way out there' for many modelers. Now, do not take me as 'old school', resisting change all the way. Like I mentioned, I have been into DCC for over 10 years, and have a 'layouts' worth of it installed. I am a 'Technical Solutions Mgr' for a large computer company and deal with complex technical issues every day.

I see two major issues with deciding to go DCC:

o - User Interface(cab) I have operated with EasyDCC, Lenz(including the wireless
phone option), Digitrax, and NCE. None of these have the 'penultimate' throttle that
has alll the 'features' and is user friendly all in one cab. I have Digitrax DT400R
throttles, but I like to use my 'Palm Pilot' throttle best for some reason. I think it is
because everything is laid out so nice.

o - Decoder installs This one is tough as many folks want to install a decoder in a 20
year old engine that does not run good on DC to start with! I have about 60 engines,
only about 20 have decoders(the ones that are used on the layout). Many of the
others will never get a decoder and are 'display case' material(they hold some
'special' value or 'memory').

Jim Bernier

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by tstage on Friday, November 11, 2005 7:38 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

I hate to pee in the pickles...

Crandell,

I have to say that you have some of the most original and/or unusual sayings that I've heard in a while. (Brrr! Time to turn up the heat in the house. It's as cold as a dragon's rear end around here.) Thanks for the chuckle...

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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Posted by NZRMac on Friday, November 11, 2005 2:09 AM
Surely if Digitrax has the largest support forum then it's either harder to use or people are having more trouble with it!! LOL[:o)][:o)][:o)]

Ken.
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Posted by jfugate on Friday, November 11, 2005 1:01 AM
TOPIC THIS POST: Let's rank the systems against these considerations

Last post we looked at some non-feature based considerations when selecting a DCC system to buy. Let's take the practical considerations in this post and rank some systems. We'll look at the other considerations - ease of use and reliability in the next few posts. Then we'll get into some more considerations.


Practical considerations

What's available locally for this system?
Obviously this will vary depending on where you are located. However, there are some observations I can make, like what system is *most likely* to be what other modelers own, based on making an educated guess about sales numbers.

I don't have the actual sales numbers, but I can get a sense from talking with modelers and from looking at the size of the Yahoo support forums gives us some idea of who owns what systems. Here's the size of the various support forums:
[code]
Digitrax 5676
NCE 2176
Lenz 1687
MRC 519
EasyDCC 455
Zimo 308
Bachmann 200
Atlas [none][/code]
This does not necessarily mean Digitrax is the best system, or that Atlas is the worst system ... but at least you can see Digitrax does a very good job marketing and hence is well known, and to a certain degree it also shows how long the various manufacturer's systems have been on the market. For instance, the first DCC systems to market in 1993 were Digitrax and Lenz, and Bachmann is the most recent entry into the DCC market.

And if I want to be cynical, the membership numbers on a support forum *could* be construed to give some indication of how much support a system needs. I don't think that's necessarily true, but it could be a factor in driving at least some of the membership numbers you see on the support forums.


Does the LHS carry it?
Again based on the size of the support forums, if your local hobby shop carries a system, it will most likely be Digitrax or NCE. I also suspect the low-end systems from MRC and Bachmann will also likely be something you find at your LHS because the entry price is so low.

EasyDCC is only available via mailorder direct from the manufacturer, so it's one system you will never find at your LHS. Zimo is also primarily available overseas, so you won't see it much in the US.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Continuing to rank the systems - Ease of use, reliability, and support

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by rolleiman on Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:49 PM
Well, Here's my 40 cents.. I have a Digitrax Chief that I've been using for about 5 or 6 years. It originally came as a kit with the booster/command station, a test plug for the loconet, the DT100IR throttle, instructions and a video.. I also have a second DT100IR for guests as well as a UT1 for the kiddies..

I originally started with the Empire builder but wanted a little more than that system offered. First of all, the EB offered a loco refresh stack of 22 locos.. What that basically means is that each time a signal is sent out it will poll the most recently used 22 decoders. At the time, I thought that it meant that the system could ONLY support 22 locos. Not entirely true. You can have as many as you want but only the most recently used 22 would be adressed on each pass of the network. The thing that really got annoying to me was lack of a dedicated programming track for addressing. Anything else could be done in a broadcast type mode but to set an address, a track had to be either blocked or all the other locos removed from the layout (or they would all have the same address).. Well, I went digital to get rid of the blocks.

The Chief, while it defaults to the same 22 loco stack, will support up to 120. When I was first readng up on DCC and loco stacks a lot of lip service was given to the time it would take to refre***he loco stack. The claim was that if a lot of locos are in operation, there would be a time lag between issuing a command and the loco decoder acting on it.. This lone wolf operator has seen no such lag but I guess if you had 20 throttles controlling 20 trains, you might notice some delay. The system also has a dedicated programming output that I personally have found invaluable. Both systems came originally with the DT100IR so erganomics and user interface didn't change with the upgrade. The chief can also run on an 8 amp supply while the empire builder was limited to 5.. What I have today amounts to what they sell as the Super Chief, with a DT400IR throttle..

If I were advising a novice today, and the only offering were the DT100, I don't know how vigorously I would recommend it.. The one line display has to change to get all the information to the user.. That is, if you Wanted a 4 digit address, say 1234, the display would blink 12 and then 34.. Programming and selecting a 4 digit address was also a pain so I didn't do it. Truthfully, I was completely happy using 2 digit addresses until I aquired locos that ended in the same 2 digits.. I found the shift button to access functions 4-8 Very annoying. A lot of other double button pressing is needed on the 100 to get to other functions, like program. When the DT400IR was introduced with a full number pad and support for 12 functions, and a seperate key for the most used operations, I was probably first in line to get one. They've also introduced a DT300 that looks to me like a 100 with a 2 line display. Don't have one so I can't comment further on it. Although I have the hardare to hook this thing to the computer, I've never used it so I can't really comment on that either...

The system is connected to the layout via a PM4 which sets up 4 power districts. Sort of.. One of them must be used for short circuit detection while the other 3 can be used for autoreversing functions on reverse loops.. Well worth the extra time and effort to install one of these. I can't say anything bad about it.

I don't know if it's changed but written documentation is where Digitrax really fell flat on thier face. By trade, I'm an Electrical Engineer so I understand most it (or at least what I need to) but a novice, someone with no computer experience (other than turning it on) would have found the docs a little hard to live with.

My advice to the DCC beginner is this.. Never say Never.. Don't assume you'll always only want to run one or two trains. Or that you'll never want sound. Decide how much you want to invest (be realistic) and get the system in that price range that best fits your needs. Ask questions, view the reviews online. Compare systems (yea I know that's the purpose of this thread).. Factors that drove me to DCC included

1. No more block toggles and cab control
2. Possibility of sound (not as refined then as now)
3. Possibility of setting up CTC using a computer
4. And yes, third party support.. At the time, everyone supported digitrax.

What drove me to digitrax was that I had heard the most about them. That and previous experience with the MRC2000 system.

I hope something I've written in this long winded response is helpful to someone.. If not, I needed the practice typing anyway..

Good luck,
Jeff
[8D]
Modeling the Wabash from Detroit to Montpelier Jeff
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Posted by Tom Bryant_MR on Thursday, November 10, 2005 10:48 PM
Okay. Looks like I'm the junior here; only had my DCC system since Feb 2005. As a newcomer to the hobby I choose my first system for many of the reasons that have been listed here. Mine specifically where:

What's available locally
1) Of two LHS in area, the LHS being around the longest recommended brand X because of large usage in area. Other LHS only carried competitor brand Y and this LHS was new to the area. I choose brand X with following criteria also
2) Cost
3) Additional features could be added as my needs grew.

Reliability and support
I haven't had enough time with it, so I can't give any credible input here.

Ease of use
Twenty twenty hindsight. Easy of use is now one of my most important considerations and the reason I am really considering a new DCC system. I also work with computers all day long and do not want to spend hours figuring out how to program this and that. I also agree that reading the manual is a good thing - and I did , I also believe that the human interface plays a very very important part. My next system needs to be a bit more intuitive.

Now ... where did I place that darn manual [V]

So, it is with great zeal that I will follow this post knowing that I will be much wiser for that next purchase. [:D]

Tom

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Posted by selector on Thursday, November 10, 2005 9:46 PM
How true. My new SEB has been on the shelf for how many years now...I don't know, but that is the entire basis of my DCC experience. Tom has EZ-Command, and that is the basis of his. Randy had the Zephyr or the Super Chief, I forget, and someone else, also a first-timer, is a year-long veteran of his NEC whatever. Surely their input, whether positive, neutral, or negative, can be shared to form a consensus about a given model. It would be different if 60 users of each type gave input, but that won't happen for a very long time, I'm betting.

Okay, I'll shut the cake hole. [:I][:)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 10, 2005 9:25 PM
If you have two years experience with the system, it's already old, Whats the best in newer systems is what we are asking
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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, November 10, 2005 9:13 PM
Since I was around and participating on the Compuserve Trainnet forum (still around on the web today!) back when the inital discussions for an NMRA standard command control system were taking palce, allow me to post what I recall about the speed steps issue. Those behind the Lenz approach (similar but not identical to the actual DC specifications we have today) were constantly harping on the idea that 'real diesels' only have 8 speed steps, why should we need more than 14? The best answer is "momentum doesn't scale". Operating a real locomotive is a balancing act between the momentum of the train and gravity and friction. You don't need infinitely variabe control because of how long it takes a minor change to be felt by the entire train. You can't "floor it" unless you want to break knuckles and/or damage cargo. And a slight change in applied power might result in a 1mph speed change - after half a dozen miles! We don't have this luxury with our models. Even with high efficiency motors and hefty flywheels, our models won't roll for miles with the power off. 14 steps just doesn't cut it - you can try it for yourself, program a decoder for 14 speed steps and set your system up to send only 14 speed steps. Very rough control, like a cheap DC power pack. 28 is nearly acceptable. 128 is nearly continuously variable, with no 'step' action, assuming you don't have wierd values for start, mid, and top CVs and/or speed tables (some decoders work with speed tables at 128 steps, not just 14/28). 256 would be overkill - there's so little change between steps with 128 that it isn't necessary (and would require an entire extra byte of data!) to go to 256 or more. 128 is kind of a 'sweet spot'
And for those that don't like diseasles... steam locos ARE nearly continuously variable! The throttles have lots of 'notches' in the sector plates, as does (usually) the Johnson bar for setting the cutoff. So 14 speed steps wouldn't be anything like a real steam loco!
Another part of the argument went to how people run their layouts. At the time, far more Europeans just 'ran the trains' compared to a largr percentage of US modelers who ran some for of prototypical operation. This may not be true today, but that was one of the elemtns presented back then. 14 steps was plenty of you were just going to pull the train out of the station and let it roll. Try making smooth pickups and setouts with a road switcher on a way freight with only 14 steps though. There just aren't enough distinct speeds to allow a good speed curve to be programmed in. With 28 you have a decent chance of setting a few 'minor' steps at the low end to allow control for switching, and opening up on the top end for the mainline haul. With 128SS and setting for top, mid, and start, you can set up a perfect handling loco, plenty of control at the low end for the switching maneuvers, and fast pickup once the highball is given.

--Randy

Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by Don Gibson on Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:08 PM
GUISEPPI:
Rather than 'What's the best' I'd prefer tto hear the Voice of experience LIST
thing's - in order of importance -

Thing's I would like to be included would be 2 vs 4 digit addresses - is it really important? Short circuit protection - sensitivities? RF control - range vs obsticles? Speed steps? - I've Oftened wondered why a few speed steps with realistic momentum and decay wouln't be preferable to 128 or so steps. Diesel loco's have much less. Another example is this 99 cab's. WHO in heck is goint to buy 99 cabs?- or need 999 addresses? MUing consist's I can see.

I guess I would like to hear what is most important if you were starting over, or designing a system, and why?. Number's are too often a marketing game.( "Oh, 256 speed step's must be TWICE as good as 128") Sure.

Now go FOR IT. From you there'll be no wrong answer's..
Don Gibson .............. ________ _______ I I__()____||__| ||||| I / I ((|__|----------| | |||||||||| I ______ I // o--O O O O-----o o OO-------OO ###########################
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Posted by NZRMac on Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:44 PM
oops I missed that bit about 2 yrs, had mine I yr.

The only thing I'd like on the Lenz is a playable whistle, which Digitrax is coming out with.

Can't think of a single thing I don't like.

Ken.
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Posted by selector on Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:43 PM
Thank-you, Joe.

If we really want the most comprehensive assessment to offer those who would use this topic as an aid in deciding which system to purchase (our intended beneficiaries if I understand it), then we need the largest sample of users possible...otherwise what we will offer will have poor relation to what the manufacturers actually offer. There are too few responders here who have actually used more than one system, so all you will get is anecdotal information anyway. This is basic sampling theory.[:)]
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, November 10, 2005 6:32 PM
Ok, following the rules: I suggest Digitrax zephyr for a beginner with a small/medium size layout.

Good:
1. Price, I got my zephyr for $160. Not bad at all in my opinion
2. Expandibility, The zephyr is compatible with all digitrax components, so you can start with a basic zephyr system and expand it as your layout expands.
3. Loconet, I love loconet. There is no complex wiring between DCC components, just run some 6 conductor phone cord between the loconet ports and thats it. Plus with the loconet system you can connect to a computer for programming and operations.
4. Customer Service, I had a problem with the zephyr a couple months ago, I sent it to digitrax and they fixed it and sent it back within 2 weeks, for free!

Bad:
1. Power, the zephyr is a small system putting out only 2.5 amps. This is enough to run maybe 5 or 6 locomotives. You can add boosters to increase power output, but boosters arent free.
2. Sound Capability, The zephyr comes with only functions 0-9. The new sound engines use 12 functions. You can add a DT400 throttle with all the functions, but a DT400 costs almost as much as the zephyr
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:43 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

...why would I be precluded from offering my opinion just because I have not used it for two years? This seems a bit arbitrary, and effectively disenfranchises me.


Well, how long have you used your system, and how much have you used it?

I'm not trying to be exclusive -- I'm trying to be practical. I chose 2 years because that's generally enough time for you to encounter some issues (lets the electronics burn in), plus you are finally beyond the "new system buzz" and can probably tell us a few system gotchas you've experienced.

But if you've used your system for less that 2 years, the forum police won't come after you if you happen to post your experiences. [swg]

If you have owned your system for less than 2 years, please be up front about it and tell us how long you've had it -- and then we can take your experience (or lack thereof) in context.

Some system versions, like the NCE PowerCab, haven't even been on the market for 2 years, but I hasten to add that if anyone has one of these brand new models, we'd all still like to hear what you think.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by selector on Thursday, November 10, 2005 5:24 PM
I hate to pee in the pickles, (yeah, that again), but I feel excluded from this topic because I do not have two years of use with my system.

It is suggested that I refrain from recommending a system, but does not preclude me from criticizing it. Accordingly, many of us will slant the discussion, if we are to participate at all, by pointing out deficiencies, but not offering positive comments that might lead to a thumbs-up overall. If my system works for me, and is reliable, functional, utile, and came at a low cost RELATIVE TO OTHERS TO WHICH I COMPARED IT...why would I be precluded from offering my opinion just because I have not used it for two years? This seems a bit arbitrary, and effectively disenfranchises me.
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Posted by NZRMac on Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:54 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT


Great suggestion about some RULES Joe.

I have Lenz
1. Local dealer (advise on the phone, invited to run my loco's )

2. Price, although I can import cheaper.

3. Expandability, I first bought the Lenz Compact (basic) I now have a the Set 100 which allows the Compact to plug in.

4. Warranty!! Who can beat 10 yrs.

5 Wireless, some people scoff at a cordless phone, but once you know which buttons to push it's obvious and easy.

6. Future proof, the hardware is there for bidirectional comms tec.

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup] Ken.
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:19 PM
SIDEBAR TOPIC: Posting rules around system recommendations in this clinic

In order to minimize the system flame wars, and to keep this topic as useful as possible for people, let me suggest some basic rules around recommending certain systems.

1. Don't recommend a system unless you actually own it (or your club owns it) and you have used it regularly for at least 2 years.

2. If you recommend a system, please list *your* top three reasons why you went with that system, and *also* list at least 2 shortcomings, quirks, or wish list improvements you have discovered from owning the system. Hype is not allowed, be as factual and fair as possible in your comments.

Also, let me say the general format I'm going to use for my own system comments will be:

1. Discuss a category of evaluation criteria
2. Rank systems against that criteria
3. List more criteria
4. Rank systems against the additional criteria ...

.... etc.

Along the way, I'll elicit your comments on various systems, but make sure it's a system you have owned for at least 2 years, and try to always keep it balanced, listing both good and (at least) 2 things on your wish list for improvements. Quirks or shortcomings work also to balance your comments.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by grayfox1119 on Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:08 PM
Joe, and excellent example of what vendors have/had to do because people just hate to read manuals, is the installation color coded 11 x 17 sheet that DELL & other PC vendors include with every new PC shipped. To me, one look at the cable and the connector and I know where things go, but I have worked in electronics since the days of Vacuum tubes ( 1956 ). Most people really need all the help they can get. I agree with you on Common Sense Approach....it works....end of story !!!
Dick If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got!! Learn from the mistakes of others, trust me........you can't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, I tried !! Picture album at :http://www.railimages.com/gallery/dickjubinville Picture album at:http://community.webshots.com/user/dickj19 local weather www.weatherlink.com/user/grayfox1119
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Posted by grayfox1119 on Thursday, November 10, 2005 4:02 PM
Jeff, you hit at what I consider a key point. New people into DCC and model RR'g, tend to get a basic system, low in cost, to "get their feet wet". Then, after they get the "feel" of how DCC works, and as their layout grows as well as their knowledge, they tend to look for a better system, one with more features, maybe more user friendly and/or ergonomic, and maybe more reliable to boot.
I see three levels of purchases: the basic level ( level 1 ) for people just getting started and with low budget, intermediate level (level 2 ) for those who have used DCC systems, and want to upgrade for many various reasons, and experienced level ( level 3 ), for those who have years of DCC knowledge and use under their belt. These folks know what they want/need for features, are willing to pay more to get more. Of course there will always be the exceptions, those who will jump right to level 3, with very little DCC experience, have the money to spend ( or think they do) , and are willing to learn on the go because they don't want to waste money upgrading two or three times.
Excellent topic Joe, and with Christmas just around the corner, many people are looking at DCC systems and saying: Digitrax? NCE? Lentz? Hmmmmmmm.
Great timing Joe
Dick If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got!! Learn from the mistakes of others, trust me........you can't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, I tried !! Picture album at :http://www.railimages.com/gallery/dickjubinville Picture album at:http://community.webshots.com/user/dickj19 local weather www.weatherlink.com/user/grayfox1119
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:55 PM
Steve:

No problem, it's fine to disagree with me, and your example is a good one.

However, I still maintain the less you have to keep the manual handy, the more user friendly the system is.

Since I do software design for a living, here's a list of user friendly questions that apply pretty well to DCC system interfaces too. This list is from "Don't Make Me Think - A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability":

- Where should I begin?
- Where did they put ____ ?
- What are the most important things on this [DCC command unit]?
- Why did they call it that?

The consisting question provides a concrete use case for you to try where you have to actually go through these questions as you figure out how to do it.

I would also argue that the reason the airplane and the automobile user interfaces behave differently is because they both appeared at roughly the same time and each evolved their own convention. Had the automobile been well entrenched for 30 years before the airplane, the wheel on an airplane would steer the airplane as expected when on the ground.

So it's possible, when starting at the beginning to design a system to make things simpler and more obvious, and that's what we're looking to assess here as we consider the various DCC systems.

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by Stevert on Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:38 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
"How easy is it to just guess how to do something by looking at the command unit, and not using the manual?"



I disagree with this one.

Have you ever tried to "steer" an airplane on the ground? You don't use the "steering wheel", you use the rudder pedals.

But I'd bet that the vast majority of folks, their first time in the cockpit, would try using that "steering wheel" because it looks similar to what they've always seen ground vehicles steered with.

Sometimes ya just gotta RTFM!

Steve
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffshultz

Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months.


Jeff:

Mum's the word. [:-^]

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by jeffshultz on Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:16 PM
Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months. My Prodigy system (used, Ebay, $99), while a nice introduction to DCC, has absolutely no future - not even it's replacement is compatible with it.

And by then I'm hoping my layout will be large enough that I'll start needing wireless.
Jeff Shultz From 2x8 to single car garage, the W&P is expanding! Willamette & Pacific - Oregon Electric Branch
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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, November 10, 2005 3:06 PM
TOPIC THIS POST: Important DCC considerations that are not system features

You can look at a feature comparison matrix all day long and you typically won't find these items listed. About the only way you will get a definitive answer on these questions will be to talk to others who have the system and have used it for some time. [2+ years]


Practical considerations

What's available locally for this system?
Is the system used by other modelers or clubs in your area? This can be important because there's nothing like first-hand advice when you get an issue. Also, if you are in line with what many of the other modelers in your area own, then when you visit each other's layouts, everyone can bring their throttles. A great way to save money and to immediately feel comfortable running the trains. If you don't know the answer to this question, then before you buy a system find out!

Does the LHS carry it?
If the local hobby shop carries the DCC system, all the better. This makes it easy to get parts, advice on usage, and so on.

If the LHS doesn't carry it, then when you order the system, do you take delivery right away or does it get back ordered? It can be really annoying if when you are finally ready to order the system, you have to wait weeks or even months before you see anything. The hobby is just small enough that DCC manufacturers don't always have some system parts in stock, but instead wait until they get a critical mass of orders and then they'll take advantage of an economy of scale to fill the backlogged orders. The best thing here to do is to email or call the manufacturer and ask them what their typical order turnaround is for a new system order.


Ease of use, reliability, and support

How easy is the system to use?
This is one you won't see on anyone's feature matrix. It can be pretty subjective, but as a professional software developer who has been in the business for nearly 30 years, let me define it the way I would define it:

"How easy is it to just guess how to do something by looking at the command unit, and not using the manual?"

The easiest way to test this is to use the one I like to try: making a lashup of diesel locos (a consist to use DCC terminolgy).

Just look at the command unit, and now without checking the manual, can you figure out how you would make the consist? What if you wanted to later add or drop a loco from the consist, can you guess how you would do it just by looking at the command unit?

This one simple test will tell you a lot about ease of use, or "user friendliness" as it's called in the computer software world.


How reliable is the system?
To me, this really gets to the heart of the "best system" question. The system can have gazillions of cool features, be super easy to use, but if it's not reliable, I hardly would call it the "best".

About the only way you will get a good answer to this question is to ask people who have the system and who have used it regularly for a while. I say the person needs to have used the system for at least two years before you will get a good sense of how a system performs in this area.

A good place to get this kind of information if there are no local modelers who regularly use the system is to go online and watch the support forums for each system. What kinds of problems are typically discussed on the support forums for each system? You'll learn a lot if you even lurk for a week or two.

Does the system have quirks? This is yet another way to approach the reliablity/ease-of-use question. It might be reliable, but it also might have some unexpected normal behavior that can get annoying. This needs to be called out!


TOPIC NEXT POST: Let's rank the systems against these considerations

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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